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  • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    I could see the Union restarting the Pogrom, putting everyone in danger).
    I hope the pogrom is restarted, more brutal than before (less forcible recruitment, more murdering), because of the Nephandi influence inside the Technocracy. This brutality should play into the potential civil war.

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    • That's what the Panopticon was about in Revised right? I mean, for all the "We won, the Progrom is over" talk that's not what ended up happening anyway.
      Last edited by History; 11-17-2018, 07:48 PM.

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      • Slight change of focus: with the recent V5 fiasco, White Wolf being integrated back into Paradox and shifting its focus back to being an IP manager that contracts others to write books for it, is there a chance that M5 will end up being written by Onyx Path?


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        • Well, let's see what hints they already gave us.
          There's seem to be a narrative building in in the one world of darkness trailer and in the gen con 5th edition conference.

          To quote the Mage part of the trailer "once you came to us for enlightement, but now you have surrendered to the machines."


          And while the gen con conference was focused on vampire and a bit of werewolf 5th edition, they indeed gave a hint for mage:

          (to the public) "the first question that we have for you is : If artificial intelligence had progressed as far as it has, that we know of, who runs the technocracy?"


          It follow the ITX narrative that was hinted in the others revised convention books (about the iterators amassing massive ammount of data in the digital web and working on the computer 2.0), and in a way, the Theogenesis Gimmick short story of truth beyond paradox.


          "“Consensus isn’t yours, Roy,” ExMachine says. “

          It doesn’t belong to the Technocrats, and it isn’t controlled by the Council, and not by the Nephandi or Marauders either. Your various global guilds and conglomerates try to shape what the masses believe, and you create gods left and right. Gods that are smarter than you. Your pride won’t let you see what’s right in front of you.”

          “Um…” I interrupt his monologue. “What language are you speaking now?

          Keymon translates for me: “Belief makes reality, baby. It’s easier to control beliefs of Sleepers than it is to cast spells. And it’s even easier to control the beliefs of mages.” “I think I get it,” I say. “The gods handle mages the same way mages handle… ‘sleepers.’”"

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          • I think you can safely ignore what ever was said at GenCon. People making decisions and designing the WoD from now on will be new people with new ideas.


            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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            • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              Slight change of focus: with the recent V5 fiasco, White Wolf being integrated back into Paradox and shifting its focus back to being an IP manager that contracts others to write books for it, is there a chance that M5 will end up being written by Onyx Path?
              If they're smart, they'll license M5 to OPP and try as hard as they can to hand the game to Malcolm Sheppard, the game's biggest advocate for the Traditions (and one of the best individual writers on the tradbooks.)


              Mage: the Ascension - Redesigned Prime Sphere; Streamlined Wonder Creation
              Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
              Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

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              • I agree with those who say that the recent V5 debacle will mean a new focus from whatever was being planned. Personally i liked the way that M20 was pointing to an greater focus on nephandi as a significant faction in the ascension war, both in terms of having been a corrupting force in the technocracy and as a separate force. The former point allows for more division within the technocracy and more opportunity to take the unity out of the Union and allow for more factions either breaking away from the Technocracy or fighting to save it from itself. This provides for more nuanced and varied kinds of interactions with the traditions. I also like the idea that Traditions and Technocracy might start realizing that, like the warring families in Game of Thrones, they have been fighting among themselves over who gets to rule reality while ignoring the far more dangerous threats to reality posed by the nephandi and marauders, and that this might again reorient the game to be about a different and more complex ascension war that involves more alliances with people you don't like but need to deal with bigger and more pressing problems. This has been a direction they have been moving since revised and and definitely in M20 but I'd like to see that explored further.

                On another note, with respect to the V5 controversy and its impact on M5 and W5, i would suggest a greater realization "in game" that despite their pretensions otherwise, supernaturals are rarely in the drivers seat on real world events. they may nudge and influence and they may definitely take advantage of awful things being perpetrated by human actors but they are not the driving forces. That seems more real to me and i have never been a big fan of conspiracies, and even less so now considering the real world damage that conspiracy thinking is doing in real world politics. This way avoids the major pitfall (that V5 fell into) of attributing real world and difficult issues to supernatural interference in a way that is problematic for many.

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                • I also would like to see the spheres look a little more like the arcana of awakening in so far as they require less of the combinations of spheres to create effects and can do more things more easily with each sphere separately

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                  • Originally posted by scifirabbi View Post
                    Personally i liked the way that M20 was pointing to an greater focus on nephandi as a significant faction in the ascension war, both in terms of having been a corrupting force in the technocracy and as a separate force. (...)
                    The Nephandi have been a significant faction in M:tA since at least 1998 ( if not earlier ) , when Dark Ages "Infernalism: The Path of Screams" got released. The Nephandi's distinct and serious attitude(s) and approach(es) are outlined in the book ; and the Nephandi ranks are described ; and Widderslaintes are mentioned ; and the history of the Nephandi is outlined and detailed. These developments might have happened earlier, in the first "Book of Madness" ( or elsewhere ) , but I haven't read it.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-03-2018, 07:23 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by scifirabbi View Post
                      . The former point allows for more division within the technocracy and more opportunity to take the unity out of the Union and allow for more factions either breaking away from the Technocracy or fighting to save it from itself. This provides for more nuanced and varied kinds of interactions with the traditions.
                      I think the "fractured monolith" theme has been overplayed a bit too much in recent times, but the idea of growing tensions between reformists and hardliners within the Technocracy is good - at the same time there should be a similar movement within the Traditions. Maybe a faction that exemplifies the strawman version of the Traditions (as a contrast to the more moderate tech-friendly main group) made up of hardcore 90s-era Ascension Warriors who decided to keep on fighting for their own reasons and youths who heard nostalgic romanticised stories of the 90s who want to live that dream?

                      I also like the idea that Traditions and Technocracy might start realizing that, like the warring families in Game of Thrones, they have been fighting among themselves over who gets to rule reality while ignoring the far more dangerous threats to reality posed by the nephandi and marauders, and that this might again reorient the game to be about a different and more complex ascension war that involves more alliances with people you don't like but need to deal with bigger and more pressing problems. This has been a direction they have been moving since revised and and definitely in M20 but I'd like to see that explored further.
                      Yep, I would like to keep Revised's "cold war" level of conflict over the hot war of 1e and 2e - for one, it gives more things to do with NPCs of the opposing sect than "go beat them up" (of course there should be some low-level direct conflict between Trads and Technos). And of course, the Nephandi and other enemies like Threat Null are looming opponents that can force both sides to team up temporarily.

                      On another note, with respect to the V5 controversy and its impact on M5 and W5, i would suggest a greater realization "in game" that despite their pretensions otherwise, supernaturals are rarely in the drivers seat on real world events. they may nudge and influence and they may definitely take advantage of awful things being perpetrated by human actors but they are not the driving forces.
                      I'm not sure how you could do this really, given the abilities of the major organisations. Care to give an example?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        Slight change of focus: with the recent V5 fiasco, White Wolf being integrated back into Paradox and shifting its focus back to being an IP manager that contracts others to write books for it, is there a chance that M5 will end up being written by Onyx Path?
                        I hope so. I'd hate to see M5 ending up the same way V5 did.


                        If nothing worked, then let's think!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                          I hope so. I'd hate to see M5 ending up the same way V5 did.
                          Are you referring to the Chechnya problems in the Camarilla book, or something else?

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                          • Originally posted by Czernobog View Post

                            I think the "fractured monolith" theme has been overplayed a bit too much in recent times, but the idea of growing tensions between reformists and hardliners within the Technocracy is good - at the same time there should be a similar movement within the Traditions. Maybe a faction that exemplifies the strawman version of the Traditions (as a contrast to the more moderate tech-friendly main group) made up of hardcore 90s-era Ascension Warriors who decided to keep on fighting for their own reasons and youths who heard nostalgic romanticised stories of the 90s who want to live that dream?

                            I'm not sure how you could do this really, given the abilities of the major organisations. Care to give an example?
                            I agree that this theme of fractured monolith has been done a lot but i still like it! But also what i would really like to see is not a fractured monolith but an actual break into two or more factions based on the idea that groups within the Technocracy feel things have gone astray and either leaving to start the "real technocracy" or staying and fighting for the soul of the greater whole. lot like modern political parties or religious denominations.

                            As for how to avoid the V5 issue, I think there are certain issues you can say that supernaturals have taken advantage of or nudged in some direction but to say they are orchestrating them is problematic. e.g. You could say that the Holocaust could have been used by the technocracy who took advantage both the war and the Final Solution to move their vision of technology forward, or who saw Nazism as a means of asserting control over sleepers, without denying that the driving causes and driving forces were still horrifically human as they were in real life. Not sure that solves the problem entirely but its a possible start.



                            Last edited by scifirabbi; 12-07-2018, 03:11 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by scifirabbi View Post
                              As for how to avoid the V5 issue, I think there are certain issues you can say that supernaturals have taken advantage of or nudged in some direction but to say they are orchestrating them is problematic. e.g. You could say that the Holocaust could have been used by the technocracy who took advantage both the war and the Final Solution to move their vision of technology forward, or who saw Nazism as a means of asserting control over sleepers, without denying that the driving causes and driving forces were still horrifically human as they were in real life. Not sure that solves the problem entirely but its a possible start.
                              I think Mage has already avoided this issue - all the factions (save the Euthanatos) supported the Axis to an extent during WW2, but none of them were behind the Axis and in the end both the Traditions and the Technocracy dropped them like a hot potato when they learned the full extent of their atrocities.

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                              • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                                Are you referring to the Chechnya problems in the Camarilla book, or something else?
                                That too.

                                However, while, IMo, V5 has many good ideas, the end result is just not for me. While OPP didn't always do things the way I'd have preferred, I have a considerable trust for them coming up with a new edition I'd actually want to play.


                                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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