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Android/Robotic Constructs, inherent advantages, and the "Life" Sphere

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  • #31
    Im sorry but robots cant Awaken. Becoming a mage is a human-only possibility, you can at most be an awakened and then by some obsure means become or be trapped in a construct body by many means. Im not getting this ideia of becoming a mage without even being a mage at all, and i am not even talking about paradigm here, if we go there i want my theurge using sphere as well...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by menos125 View Post
      Im sorry but robots cant Awaken. Becoming a mage is a human-only possibility, you can at most be an awakened and then by some obsure means become or be trapped in a construct body by many means. Im not getting this ideia of becoming a mage without even being a mage at all, and i am not even talking about paradigm here, if we go there i want my theurge using sphere as well...

      No, Becoming a Mage requires an Avatar. If your Theurge wants spheres all they need is to rip out their gnosis, shapeshifting and all connection to Gaia and get an avatar.

      Construct is a Flaw that can be taken generally by Technocracy creations but was explicitly one of the Etherite premade characters in 2e.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Lian View Post


        No, Becoming a Mage requires an Avatar. If your Theurge wants spheres all they need is to rip out their gnosis, shapeshifting and all connection to Gaia and get an avatar.

        Construct is a Flaw that can be taken generally by Technocracy creations but was explicitly one of the Etherite premade characters in 2e.

        Im sorry wasnt human beings the ONLY creatures on the entire Tellurian with an avatar? Wouldn't it means that the only things at all being able to become awakened be human beings? And about that ripping off gnosis and so on... where did you take that from? Its not about gnosis that a wherewolf cant awaken and its not because gaia that they dont have avatars, that was never said anywhere in the books. Now if we want to start getting weird obscure references from past editions I will summon "that-whom-should-not-be-named" and justify my vampire theurge doing true magick. I can even cite an example of a robot that had Enlightenment, MECHA Construct, but in this specific case MECHA was designed on the base of a technocract agent that was "mysteriously" never seen again hinting that MECHA was maybe something more terrible than a simple dimensional prison/concentration camp.

        The thing is, you can be a robot or whatever you want as long that you where human before because only humans on the entire wherewolf pantheon had avatar. We may have other beings showing arete and spheres in their sheets along early editions, but that was the easiest way WW had to have characters with abilities closer to true magick dinamism and wide ranged capabilities without making an entire new system just for npcs like djins, incarnas, hitmarks and dragons. Are you sure it was not like that on the construct sheet?

        Oh and this thread implies that a robot with AI made by Mind 5 could awaken, well if we look at gilgul the least thing needed to perform that ritual was actually Spirit 5 and other things. If all we need is a mind to awaken sure other beings could be as much as humans beings, and i am not even talking about werewolves and vampires...
        Last edited by menos125; 06-22-2018, 09:10 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by menos125 View Post
          Im sorry wasnt human beings the ONLY creatures on the entire Tellurian with an avatar? Wouldn't it means that the only things at all being able to become awakened be human beings? And about that ripping off gnosis and so on... where did you take that from?
          I think that was the point
          You 'only' need to do those things. Read: It's not possible.

          And yes, only constructs with a human soul (which can theoretically be, mind you, artificially created with the Spirit sphere..) can Awaken.
          Also yes, The Matriarch of MECHA was created by fusing two Iteration X Sisters to create the AI.
          Last edited by Ambrosia; 06-22-2018, 09:51 AM.


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          • #35
            Originally posted by Lian View Post


            Does primium by itself count as an enhancement?

            Also Rereading m20 I'm not seeing ANYTHING about permadox effecting other people. Is that in Guide to the Technocracy?
            Yes. Primium is listed under Enhancements. And you need to have Reinforced Skeleton to have extensive Primium upgrades, in fact, in M20.

            I remember reading it in M20, or Book of Secrets. I'll post the quote here when I find it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by menos125 View Post


              Im sorry wasnt human beings the ONLY creatures on the entire Tellurian with an avatar? Wouldn't it means that the only things at all being able to become awakened be human beings?
              What makes a man a man? Is it that s/he was born of a womb? Does that mean Clones aren't human? IF clones are human, what about genetically engineered people? And so on and so forth. What about going from mystic Traditions? Frakenstien's monster? the Golem of Prague?


              And about that ripping off gnosis and so on... where did you take that from? Its not about gnosis that a wherewolf cant awaken and its not because gaia that they dont have avatars, that was never said anywhere in the books. Now if we want to start getting weird obscure references from past editions I will summon "that-whom-should-not-be-named" and justify my vampire theurge doing true magick. I can even cite an example of a robot that had Enlightenment, MECHA Construct, but in this specific case MECHA was designed on the base of a technocract agent that was "mysteriously" never seen again hinting that MECHA was maybe something more terrible than a simple dimensional prison/concentration camp.
              Your werewolf cannot have an avatar because what they have in the place of an Avatar is their Connection to Gaia, Vampire cannot have an avatar because what they have in the place where an avatar should be is the Curse of Caine. A Changeling cannot have a avatar because their fairie soul fills that slot. Simple. If you want to open up that slot give maybe you can give up your connection to something else.. or just be a souless monstrocity.

              As for the Skinner, He never had true magick. He had an item that was mechanically simulated Spheres. He had a stupidly over powered Tallisman, I mean it was broken as all hell but it he never awoke. He just was running around with basically the Infinity Gauntlet and if you can come up with a mechanic better for that than spheres...




              The thing is, you can be a robot or whatever you want as long that you where human before because only humans on the entire wherewolf pantheon had avatar. We may have other beings showing arete and spheres in their sheets along early editions, but that was the easiest way WW had to have characters with abilities closer to true magick dinamism and wide ranged capabilities without making an entire new system just for npcs like djins, incarnas, hitmarks and dragons. Are you sure it was not like that on the construct sheet?

              Construct is sitting there in m20. It doesn't require souless. Fully created in the lab Technocrats are suggested PCs the only thing you're biasing is towards Progenitors over anything else and Technocrat over Tradition.

              Oh and this thread implies that a robot with AI made by Mind 5 could awaken, well if we look at gilgul the least thing needed to perform that ritual was actually Spirit 5 and other things. If all we need is a mind to awaken sure other beings could be as much as humans beings, and i am not even talking about werewolves and vampires...
              This thread in fact did not say that. A mind gives a potential for a soul to Take up residence. But Potential is not actuality. Spirit makes it MORE likely but even then spirit cannot force Enlightenment.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by menos125 View Post


                Im sorry wasnt human beings the ONLY creatures on the entire Tellurian with an avatar? Wouldn't it means that the only things at all being able to become awakened be human beings? And about that ripping off gnosis and so on... where did you take that from? Its not about gnosis that a wherewolf cant awaken and its not because gaia that they dont have avatars, that was never said anywhere in the books. Now if we want to start getting weird obscure references from past editions I will summon "that-whom-should-not-be-named" and justify my vampire theurge doing true magick. I can even cite an example of a robot that had Enlightenment, MECHA Construct, but in this specific case MECHA was designed on the base of a technocract agent that was "mysteriously" never seen again hinting that MECHA was maybe something more terrible than a simple dimensional prison/concentration camp.

                The thing is, you can be a robot or whatever you want as long that you where human before because only humans on the entire wherewolf pantheon had avatar. We may have other beings showing arete and spheres in their sheets along early editions, but that was the easiest way WW had to have characters with abilities closer to true magick dinamism and wide ranged capabilities without making an entire new system just for npcs like djins, incarnas, hitmarks and dragons. Are you sure it was not like that on the construct sheet?

                Oh and this thread implies that a robot with AI made by Mind 5 could awaken, well if we look at gilgul the least thing needed to perform that ritual was actually Spirit 5 and other things. If all we need is a mind to awaken sure other beings could be as much as humans beings, and i am not even talking about werewolves and vampires...
                It is 100% canon that constructs can awaken. The construct flaw is very up-front about this.

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                • #38
                  I'm thinking either just Matter, or Life/Matter. I am not a fan of Vampires needing Matter/Life combo for their body.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    It is 100% canon that constructs can awaken. The construct flaw is very up-front about this.
                    Give me an example.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by menos125 View Post
                      Give me an example.
                      As I wrote above, a Construct *can* awaken if it contains a human soul. Wether that soul already existed and has been put into the Construct, or has been created via Magick specifically for it, is up for grabs - but that's essentially the one key component necessary for awakening - so you need Spirit Mastery to create such a thing.
                      A construct that does not have a human soul can't ever awaken - so no awakened literal beep boop robot AIs or vat-grown creatures that didn't get such a soul included, etc.

                      The M20 corebook contains the 'Construct' social flaw for awakened Constructs that stand out enough to be too different from their human companions. Mind you that you *also* count as a Construct if, say, your mind and soul got transferred from your normal body into such a grown or purely artificial one - you needn't be born as one.


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                      • #41
                        Yeah mage literally says Clones and things like certain Golems can Awaken, its in the Merits and Flaws section. You can even be a pig turned into a man, who then awakens.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #42
                          One thing I would say is that Constructs typically aren't built with Spirit / Dimensional Science 5 involved, so I can only assume that these androids/golems/clones can develop souls/spirits by themselves under the right conditions. Is there anything in M20 that confirms this?

                          For example, I can see a NWO construct slowly developing a spiritual aspect (remember that in the WoD even objects have an animistic spiritual side, from toasters up to cars), gaining some sort of "character", just as a sword created with magick would gradually begin to acquire a weak spirit pattern overtime, becoming more and more like normal objects. A HIT Mark won't develop this sort of spiritual dimension because they're so thoroughly brainwashed and driven by simple instructions; they're controlled in such a way as to be blinkered and cut off from certain aspects of reality.

                          But an android who is self-aware, processes information the way humans do, and can emulate or simulate emotions (a useful feature if you want them to have decent Social Attributes) along with emotional reasoning (predicting the behaviour of emotional meatbags)... well in time you're going to see them acquiring a few quirks and bugs. And eventually this might include the sort of behaviours which engender a spiritual side; appreciating aesthetics, forming bonds with objects and people, self-reflecting...

                          This is obviously a good thing and a bad thing. If you want your construct to have a spirit, and potentially awaken, then you don't absolutely need Spirit 5; there is a chance that very slowly they will develop a spirit pattern on their own through experience. But this is not going to work out, realistically; it's the sort of thing that happens in a PC's backstory, not a common occurrence. And it's a bad thing since it means that an obedient construct you design as soulless and useful might begin to develop a sort of free will.

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                          • #43
                            Well you could view as creating the Android is like creating a fetus, you only need the most fundamental powers. And thus it may cultivate a spirit at the same time it cultivates its mind.
                            Other androids however could very well be built with their own congenital spiritual shadow or nervous system. Such an android may be built perhaps to start off hitting the ground running, while a more basic "grown" android has to grow into a person. Maybe many of them don't even grow into a person and its just a hiccup, or at least only a handful are lucky enough to develop into one.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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