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  • About Archmages...Some questions

    Hello Everybody!

    I want to ask some questions:
    1.how powerful a “normal” archmage is? If use the vampire standard,can they equivalent to an elder,or more terrible,some Meths? I say “normal”,so some Extraordinary may be ignored...
    2.how powerful Voormas and the Unnamed are?

    I used to see topics here discussing Voormas, they think he is much more powerful than average Meths,so can he beat some badass vampire?Like,Al-ashard?Ur-Shulgi is off...

    Unnamed is a Antes-level-old mages,then can he beat some Antes?He may be the most powerful NPC in statted ones...but I saw very polarized discussion about this...

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Rock113; 08-28-2018, 04:08 AM.

  • #2
    When archmages are used by the Storyteller their power level would be equal to that of the 3rd generation vampires or more so.

    If you were to run a story allowing the players to become archmages you would want to keep them at about the methuselah level of power but this might prove difficult unless you keep the story on earth.

    Paradox is the only thing to really reign in their power and arch-sphere effects on earth are paradox magnets. Though an archmage of Prime will be able to even get around this to varying degees.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tuch View Post
      When archmages are used by the Storyteller their power level would be equal to that of the 3rd generation vampires or more so.

      If you were to run a story allowing the players to become archmages you would want to keep them at about the methuselah level of power but this might prove difficult unless you keep the story on earth.

      Paradox is the only thing to really reign in their power and arch-sphere effects on earth are paradox magnets. Though an archmage of Prime will be able to even get around this to varying degees.
      Ahhh...If l run a story ,Characters having Lv.4 superpowers are my limitation. More powerful guys are all “Plot Device”.

      I’m not disappointed about your answers.But no detailed comparison?Or this is difficult to compare or discuss?Don’t angry...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

        Ahhh...If l run a story ,Characters having Lv.4 superpowers are my limitation. More powerful guys are all “Plot Device”.

        I’m not disappointed about your answers.But no detailed comparison?Or this is difficult to compare or discuss?Don’t angry...
        It's difficult to compare Mages with Vampires in terms of power. Lasombra could, if he woke up and achieved his full power by drinking a few of his clan dry, cover the whole world in shadow. No Mage will be able to cover the whole world in shadow without facing a huge Paradox Backlash which would likely fling them into the outer reaches.

        Given preparation, an Archmage can do incredible and otherwise impossible things. Their power is absurd. But they aren't invulnerable or perfect.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

          It's difficult to compare Mages with Vampires in terms of power. Lasombra could, if he woke up and achieved his full power by drinking a few of his clan dry, cover the whole world in shadow. No Mage will be able to cover the whole world in shadow without facing a huge Paradox Backlash which would likely fling them into the outer reaches.

          Given preparation, an Archmage can do incredible and otherwise impossible things. Their power is absurd. But they aren't invulnerable or perfect.
          So if in common situation,no mage can beat an Ante?

          Ahh...Paradox is a very big barrier,archspheres are ridiculous,like Force 9...But JUST IN THEORY... Huge Paradox makes them much weaker...

          Uhh,another question, low the standard,how powerful a Badass Master is? I say ,if he has all Lv.5 Spheres(Or 6-8 Lv.5, some Lv.4 or 3 spheres),7+ Arete,15+,-Quinte and Lv.4 or 5 Backgrounds and all Lv.5 Abilities which are needed in battle ?Can he beat some powerful vampires?Like Warlord Karsh? I remember one Nictuku was killed by a mage in LoB...
          Last edited by Rock113; 08-28-2018, 04:23 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Long story short, I agree with Tuch answer on this one

            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
            I’m not disappointed about your answers.But no detailed comparison?Or this is difficult to compare or discuss?Don’t angry...
            Oh yeah, it's difficult, but it has been done: Here you have some great threads with more detailed comparisons. One it's specific about Archmages, the other isn't but ilustrates why it's hard to compare (and answers your question about Masters):
            Archmage and Antediluvian
            Arete 5/6 mage against 5th or 6th gen Thaumaturge

            Comment


            • #7

              Originally posted by Rock113
              So if in common situation,no mage can beat an Ante?
              That's not how Ante's work. Antediluvians are a "plot device", they're as strong as the ST wants them to. Thus, there's no such thing as "a common situation", defeating an Ante it's always a story.

              How hard it is depends on how hard the ST want's it to be. Antediluvians have been defeated in legend (and in the week of nigthmares). They're not invulnerable, but their power level it's purposely left vague so the players can't defeat them with pure number crunching.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post


                That's not how Ante's work. Antediluvians are a "plot device", they're as strong as the ST wants them to. Thus, there's no such thing as "a common situation", defeating an Ante it's always a story.

                How hard it is depends on how hard the ST want's it to be. Antediluvians have been defeated in legend (and in the week of nigthmares). They're not invulnerable, but their power level it's purposely left vague so the players can't defeat them with pure number crunching.
                Thanks!!!!! My questions are solved!
                And, to tell the truth, I like “Long story short”, I used to think I may make some explanation before asking questions,but I’m wrong.So I edit my top.
                Last edited by Rock113; 08-27-2018, 11:29 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1) Power levels varies wildly between Archmages.

                  Ibn -Thot, Hermetic archmage, stats at hands is no way capable of defeating a Vampire Methuselah. Even a powerful elder could jump at him.
                  On the other hands people like Al-Aswad, Porthos and Voormas outclass most being in existence, included the Antes.

                  If you take Caeron Mustai, a powerful hermetic Archmage, you have in your hands a mage that can deal with most Methuselah surely, but I would not say that the results are guaranteed. If you take Porthos Fitz Empress you have a mage so powerfull (virtually an Oracle) that can nuke a continent and can outclass Antes.

                  2)Power levels varies widly between Vampires.


                  Japhet, Baba Yaga and Shaitan are borderline gods, their powers incredibles and unmatched. Dastur Anosh, Necross and Izhim-Ur Bhaal are incredibly strong, yet they are no match for the previous ones.
                  And yet they are all Methuselahs.

                  The Ravnos antedeluvian, while greatly powerful and while it required the whole Technocracy to take him down, was not the most "Chtuluh" of the Antes (and was in a frenzy). Tzimisce, Lasombra,Ennoia and so on seems on different scale.


                  3) Much depends on contest.


                  A) Archmages are human, you shot them you kill them, their dicepools are limited and so on. In a white room scenario, without time to building spells, the Mage dies, because he is facing something that throws 15+ dices, that will do many more actions and so on. If the mage is caught with is guard down they matter is pretty much simple.

                  B) Archmage can prepare to anything, given enough time a mage can prepare the battlefield as he sees fits. A mage that has choosed the battlefield will be incredibly powerful.


                  Let's make two examples from the lore:

                  Al-Ashraad, when he was still an Archmage, easily dispatched a 4th gen assamite and several other vampires of the Assassin clan with ease, wiyelding as a weapon fire and sun. He knew that they were coming, and there was no match.

                  In the ancient Egypt Set fought a legendary Silent Strider empowered by the magic of an archmage. The magic of the archmage made the Strider equal to Set in powers. When Set understood that the source of power of the werewolf was the mage he dropped fighting the wolf and killed the unprepared mage.



                  4)Death is no sure thing for beings of such potence.


                  An archmaster of life or entropy or Mind could easily survive its own death. Many antedeluvians (Tzimisce, Saulot,Lasombra, Cappadocius) have survived their own death and are virtually immortals.

                  That such beings are killable, both mages and Antes, is no sure thing at all.*

                  *Then again we are not even sure of Ravnos death, but the same could be said for Porthos.
                  Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-27-2018, 01:59 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                    1) Power levels varies wildly between Archmages.

                    Ibn -Thot, Hermetic archmage, stats at hands is no way capable of defeating a Vampire Methuselah. Even a powerful elder could jump at him.
                    On the other hands people like Al-Aswad, Porthos and Voormas outclass most being in existence, included the Antes.

                    If you take Caeron Mustai, a powerful hermetic Archmage, you have in your hands a mage that can deal with most Methuselah surely, but I would not say that the results are guaranteed. If you take Porthos Fitz Empress you have a mage so powerfull (virtually an Oracle) that can nuke a continent and can outclass Antes.

                    2)Power levels varies widly between Vampires.


                    Japhet, Baba Yaga and Shaitan are borderline gods, their powers incredibles and unmatched. Dastur Anosh, Necross and Izhim-Ur Bhaal are incredibly strong, yet they are no match for the previous ones.
                    And yet they are all Methuselahs.

                    The Ravnos antedeluvian, while greatly powerful and while it required the whole Technocracy to take him down, was not the most "Chtuluh" of the Antes (and was in a frenzy). Tzimisce, Lasombra,Ennoia and so on seems on different scale.


                    3) Much depends on contest.


                    A) Archmages are human, you shot them you kill them, their dicepools are limited and so on. In a white room scenario, without time to building spells, the Mage dies, because he is facing something that throws 15+ dices, that will do many more actions and so on. If the mage is caught with is guard down they matter is pretty much simple.

                    B) Archmage can prepare to anything, given enough time a mage can prepare the battlefield as he sees fits. A mage that has choosed the battlefield will be incredibly powerful.


                    Let's make two examples from the lore:

                    Al-Ashraad, when he was still an Archmage, easily dispatched a 4th gen assamite and several other vampires of the Assassin clan with ease, wiyelding as a weapon fire and sun. He knew that they were coming, and there was no match.

                    In the ancient Egypt Set fought a legendary Silent Strider empowered by the magic of an archmage. The magic of the archmage made the Strider equal to Set in powers. When Set understood that the source of power of the werewolf was the mage he dropped fighting the wolf and killed the unprepared mage.



                    4)Death is no sure thing for beings of such potence.


                    An archmaster of life or entropy or Mind could easily survive its own death. Many antedeluvians (Tzimisce, Saulot,Lasombra, Cappadocius) have survived their own death and are virtually immortals.

                    That such beings are killable, both mages and Antes, is no sure thing at all.*

                    *Then again we are not even sure of Ravnos death, but the same could be said for Porthos.
                    Thank you very much!Uh,please let me ask some questions:

                    1.Are there any MAGE Books talking about Al-ashard?I think he must leave some records in traditions,because he is so powerful...
                    2.Where can I find Caeron Mustai stats?I remember all detaily statted Archmage NPCs are:Voormas,Porthos,Medea,the Unnamed,Ishaq Ibn-Thoth...

                    Thanks..
                    Last edited by Rock113; 08-28-2018, 04:12 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Al-Aswad has a listing in both the Book of Madness (along with Medea) and in more detail in the Ascension book which also has stats for Voormas. Note that when archmages are involved in Mage metaplot, it's almost always a massive event. Porthos died holding Doissetep together. Voormas vs Senex isn't a duel but represents a fundamental difference in how the wheel of creation should turn.

                      Please consider though, things besides spheres. Senex's power comes from the fact that he's considered the most revered Euthanatos to ever exist. Ibn-Thoth has six dots of Spirit which at a minimum requires an immensely powerful tutor of equal ability. He's a respected scholar and the resources he could call upon are massive. One thing the book Masters of the Art makes clear is that anyone who wishes to become an archmage needs the support of other archmages which is a special kind of potent friend. In the same way vampires have progeny, mages have apprentices, and an archmage may accumulate a few centuries worth. The power of the technocracy is not that they have more mages but that they're far better at infrastructure and having unenlightened support.

                      Finally, consider domain. Part of the purpose of the metaplot event of the Avatar Storm was to cut off the archmages. Most archmages were in the umbra where they can shake of the paradox that comes from likely being centuries old and experiment or pursue wisdom with more ease. Vampires in most cases aren't going to touch the umbra. So the business that'd force them to be in the same spot would be hard. They'd likely fight a proxy war.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post
                        Al-Aswad has a listing in both the Book of Madness (along with Medea) and in more detail in the Ascension book which also has stats for Voormas. Note that when archmages are involved in Mage metaplot, it's almost always a massive event. Porthos died holding Doissetep together. Voormas vs Senex isn't a duel but represents a fundamental difference in how the wheel of creation should turn.

                        Please consider though, things besides spheres. Senex's power comes from the fact that he's considered the most revered Euthanatos to ever exist. Ibn-Thoth has six dots of Spirit which at a minimum requires an immensely powerful tutor of equal ability. He's a respected scholar and the resources he could call upon are massive. One thing the book Masters of the Art makes clear is that anyone who wishes to become an archmage needs the support of other archmages which is a special kind of potent friend. In the same way vampires have progeny, mages have apprentices, and an archmage may accumulate a few centuries worth. The power of the technocracy is not that they have more mages but that they're far better at infrastructure and having unenlightened support.

                        Finally, consider domain. Part of the purpose of the metaplot event of the Avatar Storm was to cut off the archmages. Most archmages were in the umbra where they can shake of the paradox that comes from likely being centuries old and experiment or pursue wisdom with more ease. Vampires in most cases aren't going to touch the umbra. So the business that'd force them to be in the same spot would be hard. They'd likely fight a proxy war.
                        ..I want to ask "Al-ashard",a 5th gen Assamite,also a very powerful mage in life.Topic is a typo...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                          Thank you very much!Uh,please let me ask some questions:

                          1.Are there any MAGE Books talking about Al-ashard?I think he must leave some records in traditions,because he is so powerful...
                          2.Where can I find Caeron Mustai stats?I remember all detaily statted Archmage NPCs are:Voormas,Porthos,Medea,the Unnamed,Ishaq Ibn-Thoth...

                          Thanks..


                          1) In mage as far as I remember he is not mentioned, but this is not too strange I think, he was born between 1000 and 500 B.c, and embraced in the first century b.c, which means that he lived long before most Traditions.

                          2) Caeron Mustai stats are in the Book of Chantries. Thing is: a lot of archmages in the book of chantries are not "statted" as Archmages. At the time of the Book of Chantries the sixth dot was something that only the most omni-powerful archmages could get, It was really something for Oracles. The only characters who had the sixth dot were Porthos, Voormas, Al-Aswad and Medea.

                          Al-Aswad and Medea are oracles, Porthos is described as a "virtual oracle" and Voormas was ascending to the ranks of Oracles.

                          Caeron Mustai was an Archmage as of the Order of Hermes tradition book revised, but his highest sphere is Forces 5 in book of chantries.

                          The sixth dot (and above) rules came out only with Horizone the Stronghold of Hope and later with Masters of the Arts.

                          This means that the stats in the book of chantry needs to be "translated" to modern times.

                          (In the book Porthos has Forces 6, but yet we are told that he was the most powerful archmage in the traditions, so it must be much higher, unless no archmage has the sventh dot, same should be done for Voormas, since his "mere" entropy 7 isn't enough to pull the things he pulls in his story, it should be higher.)*




                          *I 'd suggest, if you approach the archsphere, to take a look at Imperial Mysteries of Mage the Awakening.
                          The book was written by Malcolm Shepard, and is the closest thing Shepard would have wanted for the Archsphere of Ascension (since Master of the Art leave much to be desired)
                          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-28-2018, 07:01 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post



                            1) In mage as far as I remember he is not quoted, but this is not too strange I think, he was born between 1000 and 500 B.c, and embraced in the first century b.c, which means that he predates most Traditions.

                            2) Caeron Mustai stats are in the Book of Chantries. Thing is: a lot of archmages in the book of chantries are not "statted" as Archmages. At the time of the Book of Chantries the sixth dot was something that only the most omni-powerful archmages could get, It was really something for Oracles. The only characters who had the sixth dot were Porthos, Voormas, Al-Aswad and Medea.

                            Al-Aswad and Medea are oracles, Porthos is described as a "virtual oracle" and Voormas was ascending to the ranks of Oracles.

                            Caeron Mustai was an Archmage as of the Order of Hermes tradition book revised, but his highest sphere is Forces 5 in book of chantries.

                            The sixth dot (and above) rules came out only with Horizone the Stronghold of Hope and later with Masters of the Arts.

                            This means that the stats in the book of chantry needs to be "translated" to modern times.

                            (In the book Porthos has Forces 6, but yet we are told that he was the most powerful archmage in the traditions, so it must be much higher, unless no archmage has the sventh dot, same should be done for Voormas, since his "mere" entropy 7 isn't enough to pull the things he pulls in his story, it should be higher.)*




                            *I suggest, if you approach the archsphere, to take a look at Imperial Mysteries of Mage the Awakening.
                            The book was written by Malcolm Shepard, and is the closest thing Shepard would have wanted for the Archsphere of Ascension (since Master of the Art leave much to be desired)
                            Thanks!!!
                            After all, "New covers Old"is a tough rule.
                            I remember, Horizon the Stronghold of Hope says Lv.7 Sphere can only be had by Oracles.This means a archmage having Lv.7 must be the most powerful in traditions. (But I don't know Voormas,he also have a weaker Sheet in Book of Chantries. If use this he may be the Third strongest NPC in MtAc.But later in ToJ he is stronger,is this just a"New Cover",or have deeper reason in Setting?I haven't read ToJ except "Hell on Earth",sorry) It also says you can create an archmage with two Lv.6 Spheres.

                            Uh,BtW,BoC is one of the books I love best.It lists many powerful guys(Not BADASS, but powerful,just within the limitation you can accept.)

                            And, another question,How can a mage live hundreds of years?In detaily statted NPCs except the Unnamed,The Oldest guys I remember are Jade Demon in BoC and an Etruscan mage in Dead Magic(But I remember he is not"live" through). Jade is just 800~700 years.Rotes in Masters of the Art just prolong,not forever
                            Thanks.
                            Last edited by Rock113; 08-28-2018, 10:37 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                              And, another question,How can a mage live hundreds of years?
                              It kind of depends on paradigm, I think.
                              In pure RAW theory (and a scientific paradigm I guess), Life 3 would be enough to keep your body young and healthy, biologically. And then more complicated paradigms come into play;
                              Does a Mage believe that a growing entropic force over their lifetime is causing one to slowly fade away? They might need to apply the Entropy sphere on top of Life because they are approaching the problem from a slightly different angle. Maybe they believe that it is Time itself that wants them gone, and they need to build up protection against it? Is it an affront to whatever governs creation? Does the Mage believe that passing beyond mortal years takes big effort and a fundamental unlocking of mystery? Does the Mage believe they need to transfer into a new body to avoid it?

                              It's a suprisingly tricky question to answer since some Mages went as far as to create Lichdom rituals in order to escape dieing of old age, others made potions that kept them young, and then went all paranoid when those potions started to fail for some reason ( House Tremere ).
                              Yet other mages simply have existed for hundreds of years, without any special ways of them surviving so long being explicitely described, and other Mages seemingly not reacting to it in any special way aside of a given expected reverie or respect simply because they are ancient Mages in the first place ( Porthos of OoH, Medea the Marauder Oracle, Henre de Lorris of the NWO Operatives, etc. )

                              So yeah. Situation unclear, but I think the Paradigm theory (as usual, really) is quite valid. There is a reason why the Unaging merit exists in the corebooks, and is relatively cheap. It just needs to suit the character.

                              EDIT:
                              Although the merit has moved out of Core and to Page 70 of Book Of Secrets in M20. Its writeup shows some of the versatile ways of reaching agelessness though:

                              ...Maybe you discovered the
                              Fountain of Youth, upgraded yourself to perpetual stability,
                              assumed an odd relationship with the time stream, or entered
                              an uncanny bargain that preserved your current age. And so,
                              although you continue to accumulate the scars, experience,
                              and perspective of age, your body maintains a consistent state
                              of chronological development. Note that this is not the same
                              thing as immortality – injuries and sickness can kill you just as
                              surely as they’ll kill any other person. Age-based decrepitude,
                              however, is not something you’ll have to worry about...
                              Last edited by Ambrosia; 08-28-2018, 09:34 AM.


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