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  • #16
    Well, shit. I had a larger post and nuked it on accident. Short version:

    1. I'm generally anti-crossover. Power comparisons like this are too circumstantial to make generally applicable rules.
    2. That's on the level of starting characters. As characters get more powerful, comparisons get even more circumstantial and out of whack.
    3. At the power levels discussed, characters aren't really meant to be fully mechanized, since as others pointed out they're plot points with character traits, and if PC's get in it with them, ST's are generally free to say "you lose, reroll" due to the apocalyptic levels of power involved.
    4. Ergo, it only works if a given ST has a specific scenario in mind, which is highly subjective and based on personal opinion. In the context of a story, it's generally intended to be a backdrop or setpiece in which the PC's are intended to play, at best, an ancillary or supporting role in the conflict which may or may not affect the outcome.

    That said, I've done it before. In my old Mage game, my PC's took out [Tzimisce] at Master level, but it took Masters of every Sphere except Time to do it. The actual ritual was...hoo boy...

    1. Learning [Tzimisce]'s and Kupala's True Names, and acquiring a "live" Tzimisce for samples of the Vicissitude disease.
    2. Creating a modified Gilgul ritual that would separate Kupala from the Antediluvian's spirit and destroy the demon, but suspending the ritual and attaching its Effect to a modified and amplified spirit nuke.
    3. Detonating said nuke, but channeling its entire destructive force through a Correspondence Point so that it would annihilate every last Vicissitude cell on the planet simultaneously. Vicissitude itself was [Tzimisce]'s body, meaning one unified Pattern and one True Name.
    4. Thus, the spirit nuke didn't have an outward explosion. It simultaneously "gilgul"ed Kupala and destroyed [Tzimisce]'s body down to the atomic level, causing it to meet Final Death.

    Now, all that was Matter, Spirit, Life, Forces, and Correspondence. The Entropy, Prime, and Mind came in because they had to flip a local Consensus to create a reality bubble to make their mega-ritual Coincidental, and spawn a Node inside that reality bubble to further reduce difficulties and provide a (meager) Quintessence supply. That was the easy part.

    What I expected them to do was use their Sphere mastery to force [Tzimisce] into its true form and just beat it down. God knows, they had more than enough capability to do it. Then my PC's decided to take the longer, way more epic, way round.
    Last edited by Theodrim; 08-28-2018, 11:11 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Theodrim
      1. Learning [Tzimisce]'s and Kupala's True Names, and acquiring a "live" Tzimisce for samples of the Vicissitude disease.
      2. Creating a modified Gilgul ritual that would separate Kupala from the Antediluvian's spirit and destroy the demon, but suspending the ritual and attaching its Effect to a modified and amplified spirit nuke.
      3. Detonating said nuke, but channeling its entire destructive force through a Correspondence Point so that it would annihilate every last Vicissitude cell on the planet simultaneously. Vicissitude itself was [Tzimisce]'s body, meaning one unified Pattern and one True Name.
      4. Thus, the spirit nuke didn't have an outward explosion. It simultaneously "gilgul"ed Kupala and destroyed [Tzimisce]'s body down to the atomic level, causing it to meet Final Death.
      A fine example of art of persuading your way to the impossible with an awesome effect. That's why I love mages

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

        Thanks!!!
        After all, "New covers Old"is a tough rule.
        I remember, Horizon the Stronghold of Hope says Lv.7 Sphere can only be had by Oracles.This means a archmage having Lv.7 must be the most powerful in traditions. (But I don't know Voormas,he also have a weaker Sheet in Book of Chantries. If use this he may be the Third strongest NPC in MtAc.But later in ToJ he is stronger,is this just a"New Cover",or have deeper reason in Setting?I haven't read ToJ except "Hell on Earth",sorry) It also says you can create an archmage with two Lv.6 Spheres.

        Uh,BtW,BoC is one of the books I love best.It lists many powerful guys(Not BADASS, but powerful,just within the limitation you can accept.)
        Voormas level 7 is a level 7 from Masters of the Arts, which doesn't use the same rules of Horizon.

        And yet it was really not that much: after Porthos death Voormas was the most powerful archmage of the traditions, the feats he did...entropy 7 was really not enough, and I suspect he would have needed archsphere in Spirit and Prime too.
        Thing is: Voormas had to be a character that players had a chance to kill, so he was not as "pumped" as metaplot would suggest.






        And, another question,How can a mage live hundreds of years?In detaily statted NPCs except the Unnamed,The Oldest guys I remember are Jade Demon in BoC and an Etruscan mage in Dead Magic(But I remember he is not"live" through). Jade is just 800~700 years.Rotes in Masters of the Art just prolong,not forever
        Thanks.


        Rotes of Immortality

        Caveat magus: These are by no means the only tested
        rotes that can slow or reverse aging. Nor are they necessarily
        perfect: After all, any system sustained for too long is likely
        to deteriorate. However, these rotes have been grudgingly
        shared by allies for many centuries, and have proven more
        effective than most. They are more-or-less universal; the
        foci and ritual methods may change from faction to faction,
        but the systems remain the same. Feel free to introduce them
        with whatever name or methodology the teacher would
        have preferred.

        Shed the Years (••••• Prime, •••• Entropy,
        ••• Life, •• Mind, •• Time)

        This is a “maintenance” rote preferred by mystics who
        can’t bother with constantly active magics on their physical
        person. Some Verbena brew potions of youth; Sons of Ether
        boast of their Phoenix Engines. Whatever the outward trappings,
        this rote reverts the mage’s body to the state it was in
        nine years ago, effectively giving her almost another decade of
        life. Mystics who use this rote tend to perform it in a Horizon
        Realm, since the Paradox backlash could be intense indeed.
        [This Effect requires five successes, and the difficulty is
        appropriately frightening. The pretense of high ritual usually
        aids the process, as does the presence of Tass. The mage temporarily
        halts entropy while using Life magic to rejuvenate her
        body. The Time Sphere helps the mage recall what she was
        like (not what she thinks she was like) nine years back, and
        the Mind Sphere helps her mentally adjust to the resetting of
        her brain without losing the memories of the last nine years.
        Finally, the adept must be a Master of Prime to fuel such an
        incredible regression to a younger, stronger state. Once the
        rote is completed, the willworker ages normally.]




        Serenity of the Stone (••••• Prime, ••••• Time,
        •••• Entropy, ••• Life, ••• Mind)
        This rote, a favorite of the Akashic Brotherhood, slows
        the aging process so drastically that the mage doesn’t seem
        to age at all. Once performed, the mystic need not recast the
        rote time and again.
        This rote can seem coincidental if the mystic secludes
        himself from regular contact with Sleepers. His Mastery of
        Prime creates a mostly self-sustaining Pattern that slows time
        and entropy. Life and Mind magic keep his faculties, both
        physical and mental, in proper working order.
        The downside is that the mage is still a “thaumivore”
        of sorts, and must periodically refresh the Prime Pattern
        maintaining the Effect.
        [Since this rote is more effective than most, the mage
        need only consume a point of Quintessence every week or so.
        If Quintessence isn’t available, the mystic takes a Health Level
        of lethal damage per day, and begins aging more rapidly. In
        some cases, Paradox strikes willworkers at this delicate stage,
        rapidly withering them beyond their actual age. The cause is
        unknown, although the Chorus theorizes that the irregular ebb
        and flow of energy is an affront to Divinity.
        This rote cannot stop aging, merely slow it to a crawl.
        The mage typically ages one year for every 50 she lives.]




        In my hopinion whatever your paradigm is every immortality rote should include Prime 5 (because you are altering your pattern), Life 3 (to keep your body alive), Entropy 4 (to halt decay), and Mind 1-2 to keep your mind whole. Accessory spheres might vary, but I think this 4 should be mandatory.


        Lichdom, which is very different beast since it has a lot of "traps" (Entropy 4, Life 4,Matter 4, Spirit 4 or 3, Prime 3, Mind 1)

        .But again, this rote is very rare since it kills the chances of the avatar to progress. In any case is a different cup of tea, since its main purpose is not just not diying of age, like the previous two rotes, but not diying at all: Lich can die only from aggravated wounds, The rotes was considered an "imperfect" immortality spell. It was easier to cast since it didn't required you to be a master, but it had a lot of drawbacks. The purpose of the rotes is severing your avatar from reality (Mind 1 and Spirit 4, but if you use a phylactery it can be used with spirit 3) and at the same time halting your body between life and death (Entropy, Life, Matter).



        In any case this kind of rotes are the main reason Masters and Archmages live in Umbra. Using these rotes makes your existence a paradox, since no matter your paradigm, diying and decaying is the way of things.

        This is from master of the arts

        Immortality for a mage comes with a price. If the immortality
        rotes were not originally “vulgar with witnesses,” then the mage
        suddenly accrues one or two points of Paradox the first time
        someone realizes that she is younger than she should be. If this
        has not happened over multiple castings of these rotes, then the
        mage may suddenly gain many points of Paradox.

        Also, the mage becomes more out of touch with reality as
        the years progress. See Chapter Two — very old mages tend to
        lose their human perspective. Quiet, Jhor and similar fates are
        typical problems for ancient mages. Without the grounding of
        human contact, they quickly fall prey to madness.
        Finally, immortality rotes can be cast on others. The
        a mage would, but lacks the mage’s understanding of how to
        deal with it. Mortals also suffer Paradox breakdowns over
        time when given immortality. Only specific transformations
        — such as the mummy Spell of Life — turn a mortal into
        something else, avoiding Paradox.
        problem, though, is that a mortal develops Quiet or Jhor as
        a mage would, but lacks the mage’s understanding of how to
        deal with it. Mortals also suffer Paradox breakdowns over
        time when given immortality. Only specific transformations
        — such as the mummy Spell of Life — turn a mortal into
        something else, avoiding Paradox.
        This is from Horizon

        Paradox

        Very old mages accumulate Paradox just by being alive.
        Long life is plausible for just so long before the universe starts
        catching on. Generally speaking, a mage on Earth accumulates
        one permanent Paradox point for every 50 years he
        lives past the first 150.
        Such problems rarely botherarchmages
        in Horizon Realms, which is precisely why ancient mages
        spend their time there - this increase only applies on Earth.
        Setting one's foot back on home turf would likely prove
        messily fatal. No, Porthos doesn't leave Doissetep all that
        often
        .





        This should remind us another thing about the original topic: Metuhselah and masters/archmasters doesn't meet that often. Archmasters do not really live in this world. And but a bunch of vampires thread in the spirit world. The only Antes who do not lives on Earth is Lasombra, but again you are not going to meet Lasombra, unless for some strange reasons you end in the depth of the Abyss.

        If such creatures would ever fight against each other they would most probably wage a proxy-war.

        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 08-28-2018, 01:21 PM.

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        • #19
          double post

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

            Voormas level 7 is a level 7 from Masters of the Arts, which doesn't use the same rules of Horizon.

            And yet it was really not that much: after Porthos death Voormas was the most powerful archmage of the traditions, the feats he did...entropy 7 was really not enough, and I suspect he would have needed archsphere in Spirit and Prime too.
            Thing is: Voormas had to be a character that players had a chance to kill, so he was not as "pumped" as metaplot would suggest.










            Rotes of Immortality

            Caveat magus: These are by no means the only tested
            rotes that can slow or reverse aging. Nor are they necessarily
            perfect: After all, any system sustained for too long is likely
            to deteriorate. However, these rotes have been grudgingly
            shared by allies for many centuries, and have proven more
            effective than most. They are more-or-less universal; the
            foci and ritual methods may change from faction to faction,
            but the systems remain the same. Feel free to introduce them
            with whatever name or methodology the teacher would
            have preferred.

            Shed the Years (••••• Prime, •••• Entropy,
            ••• Life, •• Mind, •• Time)

            This is a “maintenance” rote preferred by mystics who
            can’t bother with constantly active magics on their physical
            person. Some Verbena brew potions of youth; Sons of Ether
            boast of their Phoenix Engines. Whatever the outward trappings,
            this rote reverts the mage’s body to the state it was in
            nine years ago, effectively giving her almost another decade of
            life. Mystics who use this rote tend to perform it in a Horizon
            Realm, since the Paradox backlash could be intense indeed.
            [This Effect requires five successes, and the difficulty is
            appropriately frightening. The pretense of high ritual usually
            aids the process, as does the presence of Tass. The mage temporarily
            halts entropy while using Life magic to rejuvenate her
            body. The Time Sphere helps the mage recall what she was
            like (not what she thinks she was like) nine years back, and
            the Mind Sphere helps her mentally adjust to the resetting of
            her brain without losing the memories of the last nine years.
            Finally, the adept must be a Master of Prime to fuel such an
            incredible regression to a younger, stronger state. Once the
            rote is completed, the willworker ages normally.]




            Serenity of the Stone (••••• Prime, ••••• Time,
            •••• Entropy, ••• Life, ••• Mind)
            This rote, a favorite of the Akashic Brotherhood, slows
            the aging process so drastically that the mage doesn’t seem
            to age at all. Once performed, the mystic need not recast the
            rote time and again.
            This rote can seem coincidental if the mystic secludes
            himself from regular contact with Sleepers. His Mastery of
            Prime creates a mostly self-sustaining Pattern that slows time
            and entropy. Life and Mind magic keep his faculties, both
            physical and mental, in proper working order.
            The downside is that the mage is still a “thaumivore”
            of sorts, and must periodically refresh the Prime Pattern
            maintaining the Effect.
            [Since this rote is more effective than most, the mage
            need only consume a point of Quintessence every week or so.
            If Quintessence isn’t available, the mystic takes a Health Level
            of lethal damage per day, and begins aging more rapidly. In
            some cases, Paradox strikes willworkers at this delicate stage,
            rapidly withering them beyond their actual age. The cause is
            unknown, although the Chorus theorizes that the irregular ebb
            and flow of energy is an affront to Divinity.
            This rote cannot stop aging, merely slow it to a crawl.
            The mage typically ages one year for every 50 she lives.]




            In my hopinion whatever your paradigm is every immortality rote should include Prime 5 (because you are altering your pattern), Life 3 (to keep your body alive), Entropy 4 (to halt decay), and Mind 1-2 to keep your mind whole. Accessory spheres might vary, but I think this 4 should be mandatory.


            Lichdom, which is very different beast since it has a lot of "traps" (Entropy 4, Life 4,Matter 4, Spirit 4 or 3, Prime 3, Mind 1)

            .But again, this rote is very rare since it kills the chances of the avatar to progress. In any case is a different cup of tea, since its main purpose is not just not diying of age, like the previous two rotes, but not diying at all: Lich can die only from aggravated wounds, The rotes was considered an "imperfect" immortality spell. It was easier to cast since it didn't required you to be a master, but it had a lot of drawbacks. The purpose of the rotes is severing your avatar from reality (Mind 1 and Spirit 4, but if you use a phylactery it can be used with spirit 3) and at the same time halting your body between life and death (Entropy, Life, Matter).



            In any case this kind of rotes are the main reason Masters and Archmages live in Umbra. Using these rotes makes your existence a paradox, since no matter your paradigm, diying and decaying is the way of things.

            This is from master of the arts



            This is from Horizon








            This should remind us another thing about the original topic: Metuhselah and masters/archmasters doesn't meet that often. Archmasters do not really live in this world. And but a bunch of vampires thread in the spirit world. The only Antes who do not lives on Earth is Lasombra, but again you are not going to meet Lasombra, unless for some strange reasons you end in the depth of the Abyss.

            If such creatures would ever fight against each other they would most probably wage a proxy-war.
            So if mages want to live Thousands of years, these methods also work ? Or you must use Archspheres ? There is no more details about Aswadims (I only remember they are all 2500+ year-old,and have 7+ Arete , Two or three of them can be equal to the Unnamed )

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            • #21
              Double post
              Last edited by Rock113; 08-29-2018, 01:03 AM.

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              • #22
                Man all this talk of archmages and no one mentions my favorite one of them all, though admittedly I dont think he's actually stated as an archmage, but referred to being an oracale or greater.

                Shzar, the one responsible for actually getting the Traditions to sit down and talk about cooperation.

                I once did a campaign involving him leading the party from the dark ages through to the present. Was great fun and the players both loved and hated him at the same time. Damn prophets are so annoying knowing everything and never telling you anything.

                I my opinion it is just what archmages are made for. Being the driving force of the story either for, or against, the players.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                  So if mages want to live Thousands of years, these methods also work ? Or you must use Archspheres ? There is no more details about Aswadims (I only remember they are all 2500+ year-old,and have 7+ Arete , Two or three of them can be equal to the Unnamed )
                  Thousands of years usually involves being in an area where paradox doesn't exist like ones own umbral realm or the deep umbra. Also, one could likely make a deal with a potent spirit to maintain youth that would be free of paradox. Two other options have their own complications: becoming a ghoul (ghouls do not age but quickly develop vitae addiction and under the rules in Blood Treachery, quickly lose access to sphere magic) and Infernalism. A demon would gladly grant use to get pieces of the avatar of a potent mage.

                  One option that I don't know to be discussed much would be something like changing your identity. I believe there's references somewhere to Technocrats doing this.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                    So if mages want to live Thousands of years,
                    At the risk of stating the obvious, that's a very long time. Like, the spheres and paradox weren't even around a thousand years ago. The world radically changes over that period of time.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      One thing that Werespiders do is... well quite hideous, but very potent.

                      They use a gift like borough to dig into the skull of a sleeping person, in their "many small spiders" form, and they eat them from the inside out. Turn all the insides into soup, like many parasites do in real life (they borrow many powers from Insects; in the lore they genocided all of the Wereinsects, being spiders and all, and took all of their powers). When the person wakes up the next morning, they are the werespider, wearing a new skin. This won't work on a Vampire, naturally (they turn to dust if you succeed in killing them), and if you do it to anything special like a Mage or a Werewolf you'll just get their skin, no special powers.

                      But it helps them return to their original age and all that.

                      A Mage could kidnap a person and take them to their sanctum. There, with no risk of Paradox, they could assume the form of this younger person (Time and Life) and then destroy them. They then return into the world as this younger person, without having to fear a Paradox backlash as they occasionally use magick to maintain their younger form. This has problems of course; you abandon your old identity, all of the good and bad that comes with it. And you also have to murder a person and take on their form, with all the good and bad that comes from that.

                      Technically there's no need to kill them, but it would make a great focus for taking their place. It would be especially fitting for werespider kinfolk to do it, taking inspiration from their relatives.
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-29-2018, 05:51 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

                        It kind of depends on paradigm, I think.
                        In pure RAW theory (and a scientific paradigm I guess), Life 3 would be enough to keep your body young and healthy, biologically. And then more complicated paradigms come into play;
                        Does a Mage believe that a growing entropic force over their lifetime is causing one to slowly fade away? They might need to apply the Entropy sphere on top of Life because they are approaching the problem from a slightly different angle. Maybe they believe that it is Time itself that wants them gone, and they need to build up protection against it? Is it an affront to whatever governs creation? Does the Mage believe that passing beyond mortal years takes big effort and a fundamental unlocking of mystery? Does the Mage believe they need to transfer into a new body to avoid it?

                        It's a suprisingly tricky question to answer since some Mages went as far as to create Lichdom rituals in order to escape dieing of old age, others made potions that kept them young, and then went all paranoid when those potions started to fail for some reason ( House Tremere ).
                        Yet other mages simply have existed for hundreds of years, without any special ways of them surviving so long being explicitely described, and other Mages seemingly not reacting to it in any special way aside of a given expected reverie or respect simply because they are ancient Mages in the first place ( Porthos of OoH, Medea the Marauder Oracle, Henre de Lorris of the NWO Operatives, etc. )

                        So yeah. Situation unclear, but I think the Paradigm theory (as usual, really) is quite valid. There is a reason why the Unaging merit exists in the corebooks, and is relatively cheap. It just needs to suit the character.

                        EDIT:
                        Although the merit has moved out of Core and to Page 70 of Book Of Secrets in M20. Its writeup shows some of the versatile ways of reaching agelessness though:
                        Thanks! This is very suitable for Fallen Oracles.

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                        • #27
                          The body rots.
                          But the mind rots too.
                          Keeping a sane paradygm for centuries is as complex as keeping your body healthy.
                          I'm pretty sure they are thousand of quiet realms designed to hold very old powerful mages, maybe some Caul go there

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RandyRando View Post
                            The body rots.
                            But the mind rots too.
                            Keeping a sane paradygm for centuries is as complex as keeping your body healthy.
                            I'm pretty sure they are thousand of quiet realms designed to hold very old powerful mages, maybe some Caul go there
                            Thanks !
                            And , "Very old powerful mages" ,
                            I think "Hell on Earth" shows a lot , Aswadims must be this kind of mages .But in other organizations ? I think Only some Oracles may thousands of years old... Or more younger , I remember Aswadims kill them easily...
                            Uh , but it's up to you , you can create some guys so powerful that can survive Unnamed's crush ...
                            And , to tell truth , I think mage is a very interesting race... many mages are just hundreds of years old, but they may have power to defeat Meths even Antes.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Keep in mind that "Hell on Earth" was specifically a scenario that assumes the absolute worst happening. Aswadim being older/stronger/more numerous than other Archmages is not the canon standart assumption, but rather a specific part of that scenario.


                              My Mage 2e Homebrew

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