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About The Mad and The Fallen

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  • About The Mad and The Fallen

    You know, I always had an issue with the Marauder and Nephandi. Many things about them makes no sense for why they are deemed such a treat that the Ascension War may be supended to deal with the occurence of a subject of one of those groups.

    But why so?

    In the Union's point of view dispatching marauders does make sense because they are as much as deviants than any other common mage, perhaps a little more trouble since the paradox issue they partake. But such could not be said to Nephandi.

    Nephandi are the most evil, edgy blá blá blá. we ALL get It, but they dont shouldnt pose such a big threat as marauders could be for both the Union or the Council. They are evil and so do evil things, but so does evil mages that are not nephandi. Voormas is evil, but i dont see a pact between the major factions to deal with him, as much as many other examples.

    To me, mechanically and lorewise there isnt really a decent explanation of what's diferent between a Nephandi and a common evil awakened. But someone will shout " the cauls, fucking cauls". They make even less sense, inverting your avatar even more absurdly less logical than any possible stupid decision. By standard we all agree that qliphotic spheres are merely an edgy paradigm, so why da fuq would a mage risk his own life entering such an uncertain and not rewarding AT ALL hardship, like a caul????

    My suggestion here is to propose something that actually makes Nephandi something well written. What is my general Idea:

    Nephandi
    Harbingers of the END
    The Nephandi by desecrating their avatar turn its powers of creation and "re-creation" into its oposite. Nephandi cant really create anything new, instead they corrupt things to a metaphysical level. Anything touched by their Will may suffer by unweaveble erosion of reality. The destruction made by Nephandi cannot be recovered, reality gets utterly broken, only one capable enough to recreate Creation may be able to fix such a thing (Aka archimages recreating the lost piece of reality by reforging it like they would do making a personal realm, which means LOTS of dots in prime).

    Marauders
    The Mad Ones
    The maddnes and the power its gives and sustains contorts reality in such a way It may not be able to come back to once It was. If Nephandi destroys the very fabric of existece, the Mad twist and pull it to its limits. Marauders may, indiscriminately warp reality to be according to their delusion. Sometimes the very landscape and physichs starts to make no sense, and worst, it does not goes back to normal even after the death of the Mad. Its all fun seeing something become candy, like a tall building, but not as much as to hear the moans of agony of dozens of people as their body starts liquefying because of the heat, and even a Master of Life looks no more able to solve it than a Sleeper.
    Last edited by menos125; 09-13-2018, 09:48 AM. Reason: Edits to avoid bullying hahah

  • #2
    My, my... My autocorrector does make me look having an even worst english than I do hahahaa

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    • #3
      I think one issue with the Nephandus is that their level of depravity and evil is intended to be beyond what we would nomally concieve.

      Anyone can act in a evil mater and have what we would call an evil agenda. Infernalism is a very gross level of evil yet even those that practice such things are not considered the same level of wickedness as the Nephandus.

      Nephandus ideology is basically described as extreme Nihilism. The seek the end and destruction of all things. Your example is really good and would be an interesting take in game for sure.

      Ultimately the normal person would fail to understand why a Nephandus would believe and do what they do because to a rational mind it is self defeating and therefore makes no sense. Mainly because from our standpoint we often think a Nephandus goes the path they do for easier or greater power, but that is not the case.

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      • #4
        I dont really like making Nephandi some demon or cosmic squid' bitch, but damn If that makes way more sense than it does now. Nihilism makes Sense but what Nephandi pray até not quite It, its not Just "reality is tiring or wrong lets all enter this jacuzzi of nothingness and be not". Its more like a craving to make people suffer, you ser I am a Psychologist, both therapeut and researcher, humans like that does exist, what people call psychopaths are subjects with anti-social personality disorder. those people really find joy by hurting others via social or psychological ways. However its hard to say that every nephandi is that.
        Last edited by menos125; 09-13-2018, 09:58 AM.

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        • #5
          Part of World of Darkness is that most people don't know what other people are up to. There's relatively little information about other night folk and this is reinforced with the paucity of information about other groups provided in player-directed supplements. I don't think the Nephandi need to be clearly different from evil infernalists from the view of the Technocracy. The Nephandi know they're composed of three factions with differing motives and obvious internal differences from just "bad guys". Within a faction of the ascension war, divisions may be known but between factions there's simply a nebulous idea of other groups for all but the best informed. If you want to have an organization within either of those groups called The Harbingers of the End, I think that'd make a nice antagonist group.

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          • #6
            On a very basic level, everyone is willing to team up against the Nephandi because everyone except them wants there to be a world. No matter how at odds the Technocracy and the Traditions are, they at least have that in common.

            On a deeper level, the reason the stable factions treat the Nephandi as a special kind of threat is that it is so hard to tell what they are doing and how close they are to succeeding. They don't have a coherent plan across the entire faction, and their motivations do not make sense, so it is very hard to predict what they are up to. Despite that, they keep having victories and mages keep falling to them. They are an infectious threat that no one truly understands.

            That's really what the Cauls are about. They are not about edginess, they are about mystery. The Nephandi see something no one else can understand, and whatever they see is enough to convince them that the most horrible of actions are correct, and the only way to figure out what that is is to become one of them. Take the whole inverted avatar explanation away and you still have that (although you may lose the Widderslainte bit).


            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity
              Part of World of Darkness is that most people don't know what other people are up to. There's relatively little information about other night folk and this is reinforced with the paucity of information about other groups provided in player-directed supplements. I don't think the Nephandi need to be clearly different from evil infernalists
              Indeed, and this it's partially the reason. If you see the laws of Traditions and Technocracy, Nephandism it's put in the same bag as propper Infernalism (as in, serving demons. Beating the crap out of them it's fully allowed. "Dealing" with them it's a slipery slope). And this isn't purely because of ignorance. If you think about it, it makes sense: Nephandi deal with every nasty thing in the universe with the objective of erasing the universe, that they don't make "pacts" it's very much a hairsplit - not from the pov of demons and infernalists, but certainly from the pov of everyone else

              Originally posted by menos125 View Post
              I dont really like making Nephandi some demon or cosmic squid' bitch, but damn If that makes way more sense than it does now.
              Indeed it does, but I think that the core aspect of what makes that option have sense hasn't been retconed: The point would be that it's easier to tear the world asunder than to change it and everyone knows that such it's the Nephandi end goal.

              Originally posted by menos125
              . Voormas is evil, but i dont see a pact between the major factions to deal with him, as much as many other examples.
              This is... misguided: Voormas it's very much a criminal from the pov of every faction. Even Nephandi would side against him if they knew what Voormas end goal it's (but they don't know).

              You don't see a pact between the factions to deal with him because nobody has any reason to suspect he's about to bring the end of the world as we know it. The only time the Traditions and the Technocracy had a major alliance against the Nephandy was when they were casting the spell that would free their masters from the Deep Umbra to tear the world appart in WW2. This is by no means normal. Nephandy are a common enemy, that's why a common ground can be laid, but this is strictly situational: Technocracy hasn't teams of Traditions mages hunting Nephandi, and they aren't compelled to tell the Traditions when they find one - most of the time there's no pact, and even when it there is a pact it's mostly about exchanging information/not causing problems. Instances of Traditionalists and Technocrats fighting together this side of the Gauntlet are almost legendary.

              All Techncoracy knows about Voormas it's that he's dangerous Reality Deviant that has to be killed like any other Traditon Archmage. Probably they know the Traditions are hunting him too, but not much more.

              The Traditions, meanwhile, don't know where Voormas it's (or they would have killed him) nor what he's planning, why would they risk getting in touch with the Technocracy?. Think about it. if the Technocracy doesn't know where he is, they're very much like to take advantage of the situation and focus in you and your friends (not because you're more dangerous, but because you're there).

              You need to think about this situationaly: If Voormas was found, and there's no Archmage/equivalent firepower available to take him down AND he was about to destroy the world as we know it. Then an alliance with the Technocracy it's not out of the question (they're probably going to accept merely because an Archmaster it's more dangerous to reality than almost any group of mages).

              Also you need to ponder that the problem here isn't that Voormas it's "evil". Techncoracy and Traditions do plenty of "evil". The problem that may beget an alliance it's Voormas goal. In Ascencion even friggin Nephandi are against that. If Nephandi weren't so consistent about trying to bring the end of the world and corrupting their friends they wouldn't be so universaly hated. They earned their kill-on-sight status with the sweat of their brows. The Cauls are part of that - not because they're useful or powerful, but because they're utterly horrifying to everyone else (there's no turning back from being a Nephandi)

              In the same vein Marauders are hunted becuase they're dangerous to everyone. You can talk reason to Traditionalists (anti-pogrom Technocrats are all about that), you can't convince a Marauder that is in his best interest to respect "the masquerade" because he doesn't control the chaos he causes. Traditionalists aren't going to side with the Marauder because he's dangerous (usually, there are exeptions, like when the Madness of the Marauder aligns with the Paradigm of the mages creating a "safety bubble" for them - assuming the Marauder itself isn't dangerous, of course). Nephandi aren't going to side with the Marauder for the same reason (in fact, it would be easier to find the Traditions allied with a Marauder than Nephandi).

              Bottom line: The problem of Nephandi and Marauders isn't that they are evil, but they are dangrous. And they have enough bad rep going on about them to make an alliance unlikely (albeit not impossible).

              Again, the point with Nephandi would be that it's easier to tear the world asunder than to change it and that everyon knows that it's their end goal- as long as that's true I see no problem with prioritizing them.
              But even then it's very situational, if a Technocrat was about to blow up the Umbra or something like that I can totally see a Dreamspeaker allying with a Nephandi to stop him. In Voormas case it can be argued that you can side with both Technocrats and Nephandi against him at the end of the world
              Last edited by Aleph; 09-13-2018, 12:17 PM.

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              • #8
                Actually, the Nephandi want to bring about the end of the world, too: I think they'd tend to view Voormas as one of their own rather than try to stop him.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  Actually, the Nephandi want to bring about the end of the world, too: I think they'd tend to view Voormas as one of their own rather than try to stop him.
                  That's not what we see in Ascension first world end scenario. There Voormas is shown as trying to stop Armageddon, albeit in a very disturbing way that would likely calcify the universe in a state that's not death nor life.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    Actually, the Nephandi want to bring about the end of the world, too: I think they'd tend to view Voormas as one of their own rather than try to stop him.


                    Voormas' plan is the opposite of the end of the world: is a world were nothing will ever come to an end, decay, or die, which would be a tragedy for the nephandi.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post



                      The Traditions, meanwhile, don't know where Voormas it's (or they would have killed him) nor what he's planning, why would they risk getting in touch with the Technocracy?. Think about it. if the Technocracy doesn't know where he is, they're very much like to take advantage of the situation and focus in you and your friends (not because you're more dangerous, but because you're there).
                      Actually the Traditions knows where Voormas is hiding, it is mentioned also in the Euthanatos book: Voormas is a honored guest of Touh Muh in Yomi world, and Senex and the Cerberus mages know what was is aim.

                      Thing is: Voormas is the most powerful archmage of the traditions, and with the Avatar storm there aren't people strong enough to go after him, and Touh Mu realm is a real killzone. You don't piss on the feet of the Yama Kings, not on their turf at least.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by menos125 View Post
                        You know, I always had an issue with the Marauder and Nephandi. Many things about them makes no sense for why they are deemed such a treat that the Ascension War may be supended to deal with the occurence of a subject of one of those groups.

                        But why so?

                        In the Union's point of view dispatching marauders does make sense because they are as much as deviants than any other common mage, perhaps a little more trouble since the paradox issue they partake. But such could not be said to Nephandi.

                        Nephandi are the most evil, edgy blá blá blá. we ALL get It, but they dont shouldnt pose such a big threat as marauders could be for both the Union or the Council. They are evil and so do evil things, but so does evil mages that are not nephandi. Voormas is evil, but i dont see a pact between the major factions to deal with him, as much as many other examples.

                        To me, mechanically and lorewise there isnt really a decent explanation of what's diferent between a Nephandi and a common evil awakened. But someone will shout " the cauls, fucking cauls".
                        Other Evil Mages do not have Yog-Sothoth as a master, and the most powerful Oracle in the history of the universe as a mentor. Even more most evil mage acts alone and lacks "common direction".
                        Evil mages more often than not have not as a aim the creation of hell on earth or the destruction of existence (not the end of the world, the end of existence).
                        Voormas "end of the world" would be a better scenario than the Descent.

                        Even more Nephandi where this close to end the World in 1945.
                        So yeah, they play in another league completely.
                        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 09-13-2018, 03:41 PM.

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