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Technocracy Archmasters

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  • #16
    PhillyCuriosity Which book refers to Faraday? He's not in Guide to the Technocracy or any of the Revised Convention Books. He was part of the Voltarian Order, right?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ebakunin View Post
      Rock113 Yes. Haight was so overpowered that he broke the metaplot and warped the entire game, kind of like Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.
      ... Dose Samuel Haight very , very "different", but not overpowerful ? he does have many kinds of power , but they are very standard ... Some a little more powerful beings may defeat him completely.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

        ... Dose Samuel Haight very , very "different", but not overpowerful ? he does have many kinds of power , but they are very standard ... Some a little more powerful beings may defeat him completely.
        The other issues were growing munchkinism in the metaplot and the merging of powers between product lines. Here's a good summary:
        https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/1...aight-spoilers
        Last edited by ebakunin; 10-12-2018, 09:04 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ebakunin View Post
          PhillyCuriosity Which book refers to Faraday? He's not in Guide to the Technocracy or any of the Revised Convention Books. He was part of the Voltarian Order, right?
          Masters of the Art page 59

          "Michael Faraday, Electrodyne Engineer A hero and true patriot of the Technocracy, Michael Faraday advanced our goal of developing a universe understandable to the Masses by approximately 73 years. Arguably the most powerful High Scientist of Forces our order has ever known, Mr. Faraday defined the nature of electricity and magnetism, showing them to be aspects of the same force. His experiments and work on electricity altered that force universally into the electromagnetic force, later adding the weak nuclear force — advancing our theoretical model of nuclear decay. His sacrifices in defeating Czar Vargo in 1914 are forgotten due to our work eliminating that event from history. His final achievement may have been the creation of the strong nuclear force, although this is assumed to be beyond the capability of any person. Our best theory still does not account for it, except possibly as a modification of the gravitational or electroweak force. His disappearance after the Czar Vargo debacle was a blow to the Technocracy, but his spirit of loyalty lives on in all of us."

          I thought it was originally in the Technocracy Assembled books but thought to check the book with all the Archmasters in it.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ebakunin View Post
            Rock113 Yes. Haight was so overpowered that he broke the metaplot and warped the entire game, kind of like Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.
            I don't think he even was declared non-canon at any point, he was killed off in Chaos Factor and that book was really early, in 1994. There is also the fact that him being a thing and having a clone/son is the whole plot of an official W20 adventure. He also shows at the very end of the original WoD as a soulforged ashtray in the Underworld.

            Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand is also totally canon now after the V20 The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra and Beckett's Jyhad Diary, it was just revised to make the whole concept more sensical and less campy. The crossovers are still totally there though.

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            • #21
              Which books are considered non-canon at this point?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by History View Post

                I don't think he even was declared non-canon at any point, he was killed off in Chaos Factor and that book was really early, in 1994. There is also the fact that him being a thing and having a clone/son is the whole plot of an official W20 adventure. He also shows at the very end of the original WoD as a soulforged ashtray in the Underworld.

                Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand is also totally canon now after the V20 The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra and Beckett's Jyhad Diary, it was just revised to make the whole concept more sensical and less campy. The crossovers are still totally there though.
                And he is not powerful , just diverse . A powerful Elder or Rank 4 Garou may defeat him easily . This was discussed years ago .

                And , to tell the truth , early era of CWoD does have lots of Black History , wrong Crossover is just an example : some Supernaturals have other race's Power with no reason ... I remember one Garou in Under the Red Moon has Lv.1 Blood Magic , and A Council in Horizon : The Stronghold of Hope has 3 Disciplines and he isn't a ghoul ... And Strange stats , extreme Stats usually appear, like Humanity 0 ... And try describing Plot Device ... Like writing all Lv.10 Disciplines .... etc.
                Last edited by Rock113; 10-14-2018, 12:36 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                  but I think it is reasonable If don't exist , because Tech Unions are much younger than Traditions ...
                  You can have an old and experienced Mage - including an Archmage - join the Technocracy and switch her or his Paradigm, Foci, and methods so that she or he would become a High Scientist ( High Scientist is a term for a Technocrat Archmages. ) . Another possibility is a relatively young Technocrat Mage becoming a High Scientist. Thus I think that the Technocracy's relatively young age as a Mage faction and an organization is not at all an obstacle to the Technocracy having High Scientists among it's ranks.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post
                    General Aleph from Ascension brings up an interesting case of the more "enlightened" a Technocrat tends to get the less identity they have. It could be the case that Technocrat archmasters kind of lose their identity and become whatever those who witness them say it to be.
                    Is that something which happens to all high-Enlightenment technocrats, or a function of Aleph's permanent Mind procedures? Tychoides in the same adventure seems to display none of whatever Aleph has and it seems neither did the other Technocrat archmasters mentioned.

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                    • #25
                      Void Engineers use a procedure to de-condition themselves; they are not subject to Control, this is one of the biggest secrets the Convention has.

                      Deprocessing
                      (Mind ●●●● [Prime ●●])

                      Void Engineer psychiatrists make every effort to
                      remove standard Technocratic Conditioning, but even as
                      threats from the Void make it more necessary than ever,
                      staffing shortages and the general state of emergency have
                      changed the Deprocessing Procedure from a gradual,
                      gentle reintroduction to autonomy to a full-on attempt
                      to break and rebuild the Enlightened mind. Medics
                      administer hallucinogens and other drugs that interfere with
                      neurological executive function. An Enlightened therapist
                      guides the subject through several “disloyal” scenarios
                      using a mix of verbal tactics and virtual reality. Bouts of
                      catatonia and rage are positive signs that indicate the subject
                      is pushing against the boundaries of her Conditioningmediated
                      identity. The therapist offers alternatives to these
                      stopping points, and gradually recovers the person beneath
                      the Conditioning — or someone close enough, free-minded
                      but a bit bent by her recent psychodrama.


                      To succeed at Deprocessing, a Void Engineer must
                      accumulate twice as many successes as the subject’s Willpower
                      + Conditioning rating (see the Guide to the Technocracy,
                      pp. 89-90). This is a coincidental Procedure if the therapist
                      takes it slow, and his player makes one Procedure roll per day.
                      It turns vulgar if the character tries to quickly burn out the
                      Conditioning, but her player can then make one Procedure
                      roll her hour. By adding Prime 2 to this Mind 4 Procedure,
                      the therapist adds a margin of safety; each success acts as
                      one die of a counter-Procedure that affects any Procedure
                      her subject attempts, as long as it was motivated by her
                      Conditioning. This includes counter-Procedures intended
                      to directly interfere with the Deprocessing Procedure itself.



                      f we have a genuine foe in the Technocracy, it’s the
                      New World Order. This isn’t new — it lives to distrust
                      others, and that’s especially dangerous in these troubling
                      times. Its agenda of controlling everything is quite at
                      odds with ours of exploring everything. It conditions
                      new Technocrats with Processing; we fix ours with Deprocessing. There are dozens of places we can point
                      to where we’re polar opposites.
                      Our Convention’s methods are somewhat… unorthodox, compared to the rest of the Union. Even casual conversation with people from other Conventions illustrates this; frequently we get strange looks when some
                      innocuous comment or gesture indicates that we’re not
                      as dedicated the Union’s plans as everyone else. This is a
                      natural consequence of our broken conditioning, which we go to great lengths to conceal, for obvious reasons.
                      A division of the DIMH called the Enforcement
                      Training and Conditioning Agency (ECTA) oversees
                      deprogramming Cadets in our colleges. This further
                      cements their professional disdain for the NWO; they
                      constantly have to dig damaging mental conditioning
                      out of the minds of young people, whose only crime is
                      possessing a desire to learn and a temperament given
                      to wandering. Once conditioning has been broken, the
                      ECTA then proceeds to implant safety training into the
                      Cadet’s minds. This includes buffering their psyches
                      against the shock and trauma of encountering dangerous
                      alien entities. Too often, green Cadets (including many
                      Marines) make fatal errors in judgment in early contacts
                      with the enemy. Our Procedures give them a psychological buffer, suitable for duty in the more dangerous parts
                      of the Universe. This is not another form of social and
                      mental control. It allows Void Engineers to make the best
                      possible decisions with a clear mind, while mainstream
                      Technocratic conditioning seeks to control those decisions. We wouldn’t presume to do that for them; we
                      trust them to decide for themselves.
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 10-15-2018, 08:15 AM.

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                      • #26
                        So what is the point of the Technocracy Leaders being Nephandi? What did they gain?

                        Also wouldn’t the Avatar Storm have essentially crippled them and even after it passed they would have a hard time becoming dominant again?


                        And with the nature of Science and innovation wouldn’t some of the Archmages be using wooden Robuts and blimps as their big guns?


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Czernobog View Post

                          Is that something which happens to all high-Enlightenment technocrats, or a function of Aleph's permanent Mind procedures? Tychoides in the same adventure seems to display none of whatever Aleph has and it seems neither did the other Technocrat archmasters mentioned.
                          Good point, I didn't think of Tychoides. Undead Rabbit's post explaining de-processing could explain why he's an oddity. The "Aleph Phenomenon" is I guess one way of thinking why we don't get a lot of information on contemporary Technocratic Archmasters (members of Control and those who write the time table). I do think the deindividuation as one goes up the ranks at least becomes an option. I'm curious what this'd look like in roleplaying.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post
                            Good point, I didn't think of Tychoides. Undead Rabbit's post explaining de-processing could explain why he's an oddity. The "Aleph Phenomenon" is I guess one way of thinking why we don't get a lot of information on contemporary Technocratic Archmasters (members of Control and those who write the time table). I do think the deindividuation as one goes up the ranks at least becomes an option. I'm curious what this'd look like in roleplaying.
                            The thing is, Aleph's whole concept is based on him having permanent Procedures which essentially give him a perfect, dynamic cover identity - no matter where he goes, everybody he meets recognises him as the commander of that nation's military just below the Head of State. It's not far out to say that these Procedures removed most of his identity in exchange.

                            As for roleplaying it ... there are all sorts of ways but I think if the player goes too far down that path their character should become controlled by the ST.

                            Originally posted by Eldagusto
                            Also wouldn’t the Avatar Storm have essentially crippled them and even after it passed they would have a hard time becoming dominant again?
                            They would most likely have succumbed to disembodiment by now. They may even be the leaders of Threat Null.


                            And with the nature of Science and innovation wouldn’t some of the Archmages be using wooden Robuts and blimps as their big guns?
                            I think they would probably be using modern hypertech, with perhaps a few quirks - Convention Book: Iteration X briefly mentions Technocrat Masters uploaded to AI mainframes talking in medieval English.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Czernobog View Post

                              The thing is, Aleph's whole concept is based on him having permanent Procedures which essentially give him a perfect, dynamic cover identity - no matter where he goes, everybody he meets recognises him as the commander of that nation's military just below the Head of State. It's not far out to say that these Procedures removed most of his identity in exchange.
                              What I'm positing is that his transition isn't the exception but the norm. That similar procedures (maybe not as severe) are applied as one advances. It partly answers the question of why we don't get a lot of character sheets for high level technocrats. Again, I fully recognize this isn't a canon answer but I feel it's supportable.

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                              • #30
                                What exactly is the definition of Archmage/Archmaster? Is high Arete enough or do you need access to a Sphere level above 5? If it's the later, it would explain why Aleph is the perfect tool of Control while Tychoides wouldn't even need deprocessing - Aleph isn't an Archmaster. And since Control wouldn't want other Archmasters competing with their aims they would prevent new Archmasters from surpassing his/her Threshold.

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