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Extraordinary Citizens: Where are they?

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  • Eldagusto
    started a topic Extraordinary Citizens: Where are they?

    Extraordinary Citizens: Where are they?

    I feel one of the big advantages the Technocracy should have is Extraordinary Citizens, but in truth the books downplay them. The Traditions May keep a lot of Acolytes, and sorcerers but they aren’t expected to do the big show projects. But the Technocracy is more geared towards useful yet disposable Extradinary Citizens, Constructs, Clones, and Victors. We should have a lot of their heroes not actually Enlightened Scientists but just Either Extraordinary Citizens that can use Devices, like James Bond and James Rhodes(Warmachine), as well as those who can repair, and engineer things (those with technology based Sorcery). I mean it makes sense if most Technocrats have lab and desk jobs! They can have their Master Chiefs leading their Terminators against the Reality Deviants.

    But they seem to ignore them after they are introduced. It’s fine I get you want to play those Techies who are enlightened scientist James Bonds but it seems Strike Force Zero type agents are what we should be getting worldwide rather then just in Asia...

  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    By that argument, all Trinkets would be Matter; because you always produce a substance when you make one. Instead, define it in terms of [I]what the resulting substance does: for instance, thiotimoline would be made using Time, since its defining property is how it interacts with time.
    I thought that Trinkets were enhancements (or similar alterations) of existing substances (a Katana +1, so to speak), while to create a substance with supernatural powers you needed Matter 5 (like Antimater, Primium, I don't see why thiotimoline would be different). What does Matter 5 do if you can create supernatural substances w/o it?
    Last edited by Aleph; 11-21-2018, 10:00 AM.

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  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    As I see it, fuels count as Forces because you use them to generate force.
    You are right about this. Though I still have some reservations in regard to this that I will think about and consider later.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    By that argument, all Trinkets would be Matter; because you always produce a substance when you make one. Instead, define it in terms of what the resulting substance does: for instance, thiotimoline would be made using Time, since its defining property is how it interacts with time.

    As I see it, fuels count as Forces because you use them to generate force. Though I could see an argument that fuels are actually a liquid form of Tass that gets used to power a Device (the engine) which in turn generates the force. But if so, they're a surprisingly common kind of Tass, and remarkably limited in application: normally, a mage can grab even inappropriate Tass and use it, albeit at a disadvantage because of its conflicting Resonance.

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  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    (...) a Forces effect that produces a superior fuel
    I think this is a Matter Effect, as it produces a substance.

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    N
    Trinkets are an intriguing possibility for mass production, though. The rules are a bit ambiguous on them; but Book of Secrets implies that Trinkets made with Spheres other than Prime don't need to incorporate Quintessence to work. So a Matter Effect that produces a superior construction material or a Forces effect that produces a superior fuel could allow an otherwise ordinary engineer to craft extraordinary wonders.
    So trinkets on their own could be used to create a retinue of complex magitech just from enhanced mundane materials?

    This Is why I love mage, you can take any part of the story or mechanics and create entire stories or even entire games out of it.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Nitpick: the Technocracy still has to use Quintessence in the manufacture of their Devices; it's just that the Scientists doing the manufacturing don't have to expend personal Quintessence on the process: all of the Quintessence involved gets incorporated directly into the Device — or Gadget, Invention, Matrix, Primer, or Principia (side note: the Union's exemption from needing to expend Willpower and personal Quintessence doesn't extend to Relics, at least not as written; so no mass-produced Enhancements — at least, not yet). It's only because the Union is awash in Quintessence that it can mass-produce most of its Wonders.

    Trinkets are an intriguing possibility for mass production, though. The rules are a bit ambiguous on them; but Book of Secrets implies that Trinkets made with Spheres other than Prime don't need to incorporate Quintessence to work. So a Matter Effect that produces a superior construction material or a Forces effect that produces a superior fuel could allow an otherwise ordinary engineer to craft extraordinary wonders.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 11-06-2018, 12:06 AM.

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  • Czernobog
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    I'd like to see some more of and more kinds of technocratic technology. I've not really seen the potential of magic items really explored very much in Mage in general actually. Like for instance if magic items can be used as components of a larger item.

    Example: could a series of simple magic items like an evil detecting Mind + Entropy item, an trash to magic Matter + Prime converter, and a Fireball producing Prime + Forces Cannon be combined into a "detect evil and turn it to crispy bacon" turret to circumvent having to make a complicated and expensive magic item. Couldn't said component items be made by different mages to lower sphere requirements to produce?
    Certainly - I imagine an advanced security camera scanning nearby entities to detect hostile intent, a mass-energy conversion unit, and a high-powered laser projector could under the Technocratic paradigm be produced at separate locations then assembled into a functional laser turret to defend a Construct. Gotta make sure they're compatible though.

    The Alanson and Martinez Hardsuits also function as Devices that explicitly have modular "add-ons" that can be added or removed as needed.

    Could this be taken a step farther, could a magic item be used as an assistant with it's required spheres in a ritual IF said item was specialized for said ritual? Could several specialized magic items be used in conjunction to auto-cast a ritual, even with no mages near?
    Well, there is the example of Operation Ragnarok where this was essentially done to kill the Ravnos Antediluvian- a massive Forces + Prime + DimSci ritual carried out by satellites activated from "Technocratic Headquarters". But other than that nothing really.

    Example A: A programmer(ITX mind mage) wants to put together an algorithm that will automatically research and buy/sell stocks to efficiently and reliably make money. He then uses a virtual database assistant(Mind+entropy item) to review the past decade of stock market data to help tune the program to the correct Buy/sell frequency.
    Yes, that would work.


    Example B: A Business manager (Syndicate Entropy mage) wants to introduce his product to a starved market he found on the coast. He buys real estate to build a factory, orders all the necessary equipment, and has his local manager flip the "ON" switch. Now as long as has electricity flowing through it, a couple men monitoring for faults and the occasional mechanic in for repairs, the factory will produce thousands of products a second on it's own.
    Yes. "Repeatability" and "mass production" are literally integral parts to the Technoparadigm. That's how they can make Devices en masse without having to have a bunch of Enlightened constantly draining themselves dry of willpower and quintessence.
    Last edited by Czernobog; 11-05-2018, 09:10 PM.

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    I'd like to see some more of and more kinds of technocratic technology. I've not really seen the potential of magic items really explored very much in Mage in general actually. Like for instance if magic items can be used as components of a larger item.

    Example: could a series of simple magic items like an evil detecting Mind + Entropy item, an trash to magic Matter + Prime converter, and a Fireball producing Prime + Forces Cannon be combined into a "detect evil and turn it to crispy bacon" turret to circumvent having to make a complicated and expensive magic item. Couldn't said component items be made by different mages to lower sphere requirements to produce?

    Could this be taken a step farther, could a magic item be used as an assistant with it's required spheres in a ritual IF said item was specialized for said ritual? Could several specialized magic items be used in conjunction to auto-cast a ritual, even with no mages near?

    Example A: A programmer(ITX mind mage) wants to put together an algorithm that will automatically research and buy/sell stocks to efficiently and reliably make money. He then uses a virtual database assistant(Mind+entropy item) to review the past decade of stock market data to help tune the program to the correct Buy/sell frequency.

    Example B: A Business manager (Syndicate Entropy mage) wants to introduce his product to a starved market he found on the coast. He buys real estate to build a factory, orders all the necessary equipment, and has his local manager flip the "ON" switch. Now as long as has electricity flowing through it, a couple men monitoring for faults and the occasional mechanic in for repairs, the factory will produce thousands of products a second on it's own.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Okay they take more time and resources. Hmm I’ll mull it over some.

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  • Czernobog
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    They're mentioned once, in Book of Secrets, in a footnote for Devices and Principiae: “Technocratic Union facilities produce Devices and Principiae without the Willpower or personal Quintessence requirements. Individual technomancers and Technocrats, however, must invest Willpower and personal Quintessence into their Devices. Only specialized personnel are allowed access to these facilities; abuse of such access is deeply unmutual.” (p.161) Note that this doesn't remove the usual Quintessence cost for creating Devices; just the extra investment of a point per Arete roll when crafting them.
    Here's what Technomancer's Toybox (old, I know) has to say:

    Unlike magickal Talismans, Devices do not require the sacrifice of a Willpower point (see ‘‘Talisman and Fetish Creation,” Mage, page 245); they do, however, take twice the usual time to build unless there’s some sort of assembly line in the Realm. Most Technocracy Constructs do include mass-production facilities - that’s where they get those wonderful toys!
    Which does seem to suggest that the Technocracy's production lines don't involve anything "special" like having to sacrifice Enlightened personnel or whatnot.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    They're mentioned once, in Book of Secrets, in a footnote for Devices and Principiae: “Technocratic Union facilities produce Devices and Principiae without the Willpower or personal Quintessence requirements. Individual technomancers and Technocrats, however, must invest Willpower and personal Quintessence into their Devices. Only specialized personnel are allowed access to these facilities; abuse of such access is deeply unmutual.” (p.161) Note that this doesn't remove the usual Quintessence cost for creating Devices; just the extra investment of a point per Arete roll when crafting them.

    That's all that's said about them; we're told nothing about how they're set up. I presume that they're set up using Primal Utility (possibly with as few as three dots, the rank of Primal Utility needed to make Wonders; though I could see it requiring a large number of successes). But I see no reason why they'd require the sacrifice of Nodes or Enlightened personnel to set them up or keep them running; it's merely a benefit of the Technocratic paradigm, specifically the concept of mass production. As I said before, you don't get the Devices for free; you still need to provide a supply of Quintessence (usually in the form of Tass) based on the Device's desired capabilities. You just don't have to invest a part of yourself into every Device you create (i.e., the Willpower and the one personal Quintessence per roll). That said, given that the Union has access to Primal Ventures as well as the usual sources of Quintessence (also because of Primal Utility), that Quintessence cost isn't much of an obstacle: Technocratic crafters rarely need to worry about having enough Quintessence to complete their projects.

    Now, I wouldn't be surprised if there were rumors spread among the Traditions that Technocratic facilities do require some sort of dark sacrifice to set up and run; they tend to assume the worst about the Union, and it would likely stick in their collective craw to admit that the Union's paradigm might actually have an advantage over their own “we are all gods in disguise” paradigm: it would mean admitting that the Union just might have a valid point. And nobody likes to admit that those who they fundamentally disagree with might possibly be right.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 10-31-2018, 02:25 AM.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    What is the most detail we have for how their Device Facilities work?

    Like did they need Archmages to make them?

    Did they sacrifice Nodes or whole enlightened scientists to keep it running and making devices for “free”?

    Or does it indeed just cost a lot of quintessence and materials.

    What’s the most info we have on it? And did they cover it in the new books?

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  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    There are two Technocracy-specific rules related to their belief in their instruments as the source of their powers:

    1. They can never do away with their instruments.
    2. Their facilities let them manufacture Devices without having to invest something off themselves into the process (in game terms, they can ignore the Willpower cost and the personal Quintessence surcharge).

    As well, they don't believe that what they do is in no way related to them; they just see their role in Enlightened Science as directing and shaping the power that their instruments provide, rather than the other way around.
    I think that there should be more differences and distinctions between Mystic Mages and Technocratic Mages described and given rules. ( And possibly the same in regard to Technomagical Mages ; but I have not read much about them, and so I am not sure how much they differ from Mystics. ) I think that these differences shouldn't be extensive or considerable ; but they definitely should be significant and notable.
    From how the Technocracy is described in M:tA books I think they are presented and defined as clearly having chosen a different path and methods in regard to how they act, think, and who they are and how they define themselves in regard to being Mages, and carrying out their Effects. There are implications that the way they achieve their Effects is distinctly different from how other Mages do it ; for example there are the Sphere variants of Correspondence: Data , Dimensional Science, and Primal Utility ; I also have an impression that Technocratic Constructs and Sanctums are different in some ways from Chantries and Sanctums of Mystic Mages in how they function, and in what benefits they give to Technocrats ( I think it is appropriate for special locations related to Technocrats to be different from special locations of Mystic Mages. ) .
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-30-2018, 08:52 AM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    There are two Technocracy-specific rules related to their belief in their instruments as the source of their powers:

    1. They can never do away with their instruments.
    2. Their facilities let them manufacture Devices without having to invest something of themselves into the process (in game terms, they can ignore the Willpower cost and the personal Quintessence surcharge).

    As well, they don't believe that what they do is in no way related to them; they just see their role in Enlightened Science as directing and shaping the power that their instruments provide, rather than the other way around.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-24-2019, 03:50 PM.

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