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I thought they Abandoned the whole Space is the Umbra Thing?

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  • I thought they Abandoned the whole Space is the Umbra Thing?

    Did I just imagine it or didn’t revised abandon the Idea that Space was the Umbra? How does it make sense to use it, for one if it’s true it makes mage way waaay more different then the other games. Why don’t Earth telescopes notice all the Umbra shenanigans? I get that they are doing the whole before the World was mapped it wasn’t round thing but it’s silly to have everything be immaterial in space, or past the Asteroid Belt! I mean so that means what comets become material at a certain point but revert back to emphemera during their predictable cycles? Why don’t we see spirits then? Why does the observable universe act like it isn’t spirit stuff?

    It’s just really silly... I mean it would be enough to say the Gauntlet is very low, or non existent but the two planes are still two different dimensions.

    What is the consequences then for say Gavin spirits materialize in space in a live broadcast, or for Astronomers?

    Is the bubble of material growing as we visit more of space? So colonies will convert things to material? If that is the case why wouldn’t the technocracy just jump in and colonize things before the rest of the world? Who could stop them?

    Can anyone sell me on Space is the Umbra, because I thought they was either downplayed or outright abandoned by the time we got to the revised core/Infinite Tapestry?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto
    Did I just imagine it or didn’t revised abandon the Idea that Space was the Umbra?
    Nope. Or rather, yep, to some extent. They abandoned that idea in Werewolf, but not in Mage.

    In Mage both Infinite Tapestry and VE: Convention Book (the last being the final book of Revised era) state that outer space extends to the asteroid belt and little more. Before outer space extended at least to Pluto, possibly forever (it wasn't clearly defined). So in revised there's less outer space than before for Mage.

    How does it make sense to use it, for one if it’s true it makes mage way waaay more different then the other games. Why don’t Earth telescopes notice all the Umbra shenanigans? I get that they are doing the whole before the World was mapped it wasn’t round thing but it’s silly to have everything be immaterial in space, or past the Asteroid Belt! I mean so that means what comets become material at a certain point but revert back to emphemera during their predictable cycles? Why don’t we see spirits then? Why does the observable universe act like it isn’t spirit stuff?

    It’s just really silly... I mean it would be enough to say the Gauntlet is very low, or non existent but the two planes are still two different dimensions.

    What is the consequences then for say Gavin spirits materialize in space in a live broadcast, or for Astronomers?
    The explanation given it's a phenomena VE call the Tegmar Lensing. It's an illusion that prevents astronomers from seing weirdness beyond the Asteroid Belt. So...Astronomers see what they want to see. Telescopes only work up to a point, which got reduced after the Avatar Storm, and after that it's all an illusion that's coherent with belief but not solid enough to carve matter by itself.

    What happens with comets I don'0t know...I guess that dematerialize and/or become illusory after a point

    Is the bubble of material growing as we visit more of space? So colonies will convert things to material?
    Yes, human experience expands the territory.

    Even unmanned probes have a little effect as long as they're monitored by humans. Satelites and such create small roads and bubbles of Conventional Space where they travel, but those bubbles don't extend a lot. In that sense there is material outer space outside the Asteroid Belt, but rather than a vast expanse it's a sort of slice or road.

    If that is the case why wouldn’t the technocracy just jump in and colonize things before the rest of the world? Who could stop them?
    Well, they try, but the Umbra it's kinda dangerous. Cue the Avatar Storm erasing more than half the Outer Space they managed to build there.

    Can anyone sell me on Space is the Umbra, because I thought they was either downplayed or outright abandoned by the time we got to the revised core/Infinite Tapestry?
    I'm not going to sell that, that's work for someone else.
    Last edited by Aleph; 10-18-2018, 03:27 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

      Can anyone sell me on Space is the Umbra, because I thought they was either downplayed or outright abandoned by the time we got to the revised core/Infinite Tapestry?
      This bothers me too. The closest I could come up with is that all Mages are very slightly a shallowing and that far enough out, the gauntlet is so thin that the awakened automatically fall through. A sleeper would never encounter a Deep Umbra horror as their unbelief is strong enough to keep them on this side.

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      • #4
        That would be a decent way of solving it if the authors chose to change their stance in the future. It only requires the VE to be wrong, and they really could be. It's not like normal humans travel to the stars very often (not without mage help anyway).

        I'm more brute and would just ignore it, but to each his own.

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        • #5
          It has the same inherent problems of Dark ages saying the world would change shape with the belief of humans(ignoring that humans knew the earth was round long before Columbus and his spiel was that he thought the earth was smaller than it really was. Which the governing powers at that time knew as well, they gave him the boat to shut him up.)

          If the setting is actually malleable to such an extent it makes the modern WoD incredibly unlikely. To the extent of "breaking suspension of disbelief the way a Mary Sue would" unlikely. To mold such a chaotic environment into the an order to parallel our own world would require mages to force it that way and then get people to believe it works that way to get it to stick. A horrifying task considering that a non-round world would present evidence that it isn't round to the observant, preventing a prevailing belief that the earth is round, and thus creating an environment that does to mages trying to "force it into a round shape" what "trying to move the moon" has been known to do to modern technocrats.

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          • #6
            Since the Book of Worlds, conventional space - our familiarspace, of lifeless rocks in a vast void - has existed in Mage. It's Earthrealm space, on our side of the Gauntlet. We don't see Umbral shenanigans with our Earth telescopes for the same reason you don't see spirits when you look through binoculars or a microscope on Earth.

            In Mage, beyond the Horizon, the barrier between Realms is so thin as to be nonexistent, but Sleeper space exploration extends the Gauntlet into new territory. This doesn't so much "extend" conventional space (Realms are of arbitrary size) as create more areas in which conventional space is separated from other Realms. The Horizon experience isn't substantially different than a videre.

            (I think the thing that people get hung up on is that BoW treats the Earthrealm as just another Realm.)


            I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
              Since the Book of Worlds, conventional space - our familiarspace, of lifeless rocks in a vast void - has existed in Mage. It's Earthrealm space, on our side of the Gauntlet. We don't see Umbral shenanigans with our Earth telescopes for the same reason you don't see spirits when you look through binoculars or a microscope on Earth.

              In Mage, beyond the Horizon, the barrier between Realms is so thin as to be nonexistent, but Sleeper space exploration extends the Gauntlet into new territory. This doesn't so much “extend” conventional space (Realms are of arbitrary size) as create more areas in which conventional space is separated from other Realms. The Horizon experience isn't substantially different than a videre.

              (I think the thing that people get hung up on is that BoW treats the Earthrealm as just another Realm.)
              Could you give some page citations for this? I've been going through Book of Worlds, and so far it still seems to be supporting the notion that Conventional Space only exists within the Horizon.


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              • #8
                Hmm, my language may be somewhat inexact here - I think we could say that our (material) space exists beyond the Horizon, but capital-C Conventional space doesn't?

                Do you take "Conventional Space" to be "Earthrealm space with a Gauntlet", or are we talking about Earthrealm ("material existence")?

                I would take "Realspace becomes indistinguishable from Etherspace" (pg 148) to mean that the various otherworld layers are united, not that Realspace stops. Obviously, if Conventional Space is defined as "Earthrealm space with a Gauntlet", then it necessary ends wherever the Gauntlet does, but that's not the end of the Earthrealm, right?

                Would you disagree?


                I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                  It has the same inherent problems of Dark ages saying the world would change shape with the belief of humans(ignoring that humans knew the earth was round long before Columbus and his spiel was that he thought the earth was smaller than it really was. Which the governing powers at that time knew as well, they gave him the boat to shut him up.)

                  If the setting is actually malleable to such an extent it makes the modern WoD incredibly unlikely. To the extent of "breaking suspension of disbelief the way a Mary Sue would" unlikely. To mold such a chaotic environment into the an order to parallel our own world would require mages to force it that way and then get people to believe it works that way to get it to stick. A horrifying task considering that a non-round world would present evidence that it isn't round to the observant, preventing a prevailing belief that the earth is round, and thus creating an environment that does to mages trying to "force it into a round shape" what "trying to move the moon" has been known to do to modern technocrats.
                  Except the World of Darkness isn't our world. And the vast majority of people in the World of Darkness are ignorant Sheeple who really are that stupid that a handful of Order of Reason Mages can reshape the entire planet without anyone noticing any different one discovery at a time. Because that's the attitude the counterculture loving hippies at White Wolf had about the vast majority of people. That there are a few 'enlightened' who know what 'The Man' is up to, but most are just braindead idiots.

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                  • #10
                    I, myself, ignore all this weird and solipsistic way of understanding the universe as WW tries so hard to enforce. Humanity is not that central in the great scheme of things, but It is an important force for belief has much power displayed as that of gods.

                    Therefore to ME, there is a material universe out there with planets and who knows what else, they may not have a massive gauntlent as Earth has because only here we have so much channeled energy focused on such massive interdimensional/spiritual barrier. The universe is not the Umbra, i think thats really silly and kills the main fun of both traveling on unknow places on an infinite universe as it would kill the idea of a spiritual journey in the "realms beyond this one".

                    I dont even know why WW even had to try making them the same thing, it is all but a really lazy way of "we dont wanna make an alien game anymore".

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                      Hmm, my language may be somewhat inexact here - I think we could say that our (material) space exists beyond the Horizon, but capital-C Conventional space doesn't?

                      Do you take "Conventional Space" to be "Earthrealm space with a Gauntlet", or are we talking about Earthrealm ("material existence")?

                      I would take "Realspace becomes indistinguishable from Etherspace" (pg 148) to mean that the various otherworld layers are united, not that Realspace stops. Obviously, if Conventional Space is defined as "Earthrealm space with a Gauntlet", then it necessary ends wherever the Gauntlet does, but that's not the end of the Earthrealm, right?

                      Would you disagree?
                      In terms of the question of what happens when a human on Earth uses a telescope to look into the Deep Universe, it's a moot point: if “Realspace” and “Etherspace” are indistinguishable beyond the Horizon, and there's no Gauntlet separating them, then there would seem to be no reason why, say, a telescope pointed at the moons of Jupiter shouldn't see Umbrood and the like living there.

                      Then there's the more pressing question that the Book of Worlds doesn't, to my knowledge, address: is there anything preventing you from using Correspondence to teleport to the moons of Jupiter? Book of Worlds assumes that in order to go beyond the Horizon, you need to use Spirit •••••; Correspondence doesn't appear to be a viable way to bypass that. And to me, the best definition of Conventional Space is based on how Correspondence works: as long as Correspondence continues to work like it does on Earth, you're still dealing with Conventional Space; once it stops working normally, you're no longer dealing with Conventional Space.

                      Also, Book of Worlds and even Infinite Tapestry are now out of date. The most current information is in the Revised Void Engineers Convention Book and in M20. In both sources, Conventional Space is described as extending out to the Asteroid Belt and then stopping.


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                      • #12
                        If Tegmark lensing is what edits out unnatural phenomena ... why have Sleeper telescopes not determined that Alpha Centauri (former location of the Cop) is now a black hole? Since that was a thing that happened with the Avatar Storm in 1999, and Alpha Centauri is only 4 LY away ...

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                        • #13
                          A black hole that is a Realm, caused by the Avatar Storm, inhabited by Threat Null - it's hardly a natural phenomena. Not any more than the COP itself was anyway

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            In terms of the question of what happens when a human on Earth uses a telescope to look into the Deep Universe, it's a moot point: if “Realspace” and “Etherspace” are indistinguishable beyond the Horizon, and there's no Gauntlet separating them, then there would seem to be no reason why, say, a telescope pointed at the moons of Jupiter shouldn't see Umbrood and the like living there.
                            Enh - Tegmark lensing was probably a necessary development to definitively make sure that this wasn't the case, but I think we already knew that Sleeper viewing devices can't see past Realm boundaries.

                            The fact that the Realms are intermingled beyond the Horizon seems irrelevant if the telescope (and/or observer) is separated from other Realms by the Gauntlet. It doesn't matter how big the sky is if you're looking up at it from the bottom of a well.

                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            Then there's the more pressing question that the Book of Worlds doesn't, to my knowledge, address: is there anything preventing you from using Correspondence to teleport to the moons of Jupiter?
                            As Per CB:VE? The diagram shows the Anthropic Horizon - the extension of Conventional Space beyond the Spatial Horizon - passing Jupiter, so, yeah, you probably can.

                            But I follow your argument.

                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            Also, Book of Worlds and even Infinite Tapestry are now out of date. The most current information is in the Revised Void Engineers Convention Book and in M20. In both sources, Conventional Space is described as extending out to the Asteroid Belt and then stopping.
                            And if we're taking Conventional Space to be material space with a Gauntlet, I agree. I'm not convinced that material existence - the Earthrealm/Realspace - ends at the asteroid belt, though. I think that in the Horizon the various otherworlds intermingle, but that (for example) the Anthropic Horizon (see the diagram in CB:VE) isn't an "extension" of Realspace, but rather an extension of the Gauntlet that separates the various Realms.

                            In other worlds, I think that material Neptune exists; it's Earthrealm Neptune, the thing we see in telescopes. It's not Umbral, but it's located someplace where (at the moment), no barrier separates the various Umbral and material layers of existence.


                            I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post

                              I think we already knew that Sleeper viewing devices can't see past Realm boundaries.

                              The fact that the Realms are intermingled beyond the Horizon seems irrelevant if the telescope (and/or observer) is separated from other Realms by the Gauntlet. It doesn't matter how big the sky is if you're looking up at it from the bottom of a well.
                              I don't understand your argument.

                              Premise 1: Sleeper viewing devices can't see past Realm boundaries/Gauntlet

                              Premise 2: Realms are intermingled beyond the Horizon (i.e: There are NO Realm boundaries/Gauntlet sepparating Matter and Spirit, or it's so thin it doesn't matter)

                              The rational conclusion would be that telescopes CAN see the Umbra past Horizon because you've just said that those limits that normaly would prevent view don't apply there.

                              If outer space and the Umbra are intermingled then there's no Gauntlet preventing me see that intermingled space because my sight it's paralel to what the Gauntlet it's sepparating. My sight traverses material space and the Gauntlet in Earth doesn't cross that space. If the "joint" of both beyond the Horizon impedes to see Umbrood past that point then the sepparation exists in some form or another (either there's a Gauntlet sepparating the Deep Umbra from the Deep Space that's paralel to our own and clearly divides spirit from matter - and then the realms aren't intermingled -, or there's a Gauntlet that bubbles us in the Asteroid Belt, which seems to be what the VE Convention book says with the Lensing effect starting there). And if the separation impedes my sight then it should also impede traveling there by Correspondence because we're talking about a spiritual barrier here
                              Last edited by Aleph; 10-19-2018, 12:38 PM.

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