Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Please give me some advice for my friend...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
    1. Does a Master with all Lv.5 Spheres more useful ( or , aggressive ) than a "simple" Archmage ? I just know this kind of Master may much rarer than Archmage ...

    It's far more versatile. In time and with effort he can do almost anything he wants. Provided that time and effort were taken care of he's nigh-omnipotent in his reach, something few Archmages can boast. Name it and there's surely a way he can do it, altrough it may take a lengthy ritual and maybe the help of mortals and/or other mages to get the required successes.

    Porthos has all Spheres but there's many things he can't do no matter how much time he takes simply because they correspond to higher levels of these Spheres. That very rarely happens to this guy.

    I think that makes Zero more useful than most archmages in a magical sense, but not necessarily more agressive due to his relatively low Arete and because Archspheres add a lot in terms of magical muscle. He's nearly unbeatable in flexibility but can be beaten in instant power and general "magical muscle"

    Due to his higher Arete Porthos would still likely win in a white room against this guy, simply because 1-2 dots in every sphere suffice to counter all of them. Anything the Zero can do in the spur of the moment Porthos can counter and even redirect. On the other hand, Archspheres can be quite overwhelming.


    2. What will happen If he take some Badass guys from other races down ? I know this kind of situation is a forbidden zone in most conditions (Ravnos vs Techs and Tou-Mou vs Voormas is the only two I can remind ). Like kill some vampire Meths or Antes , an Rank 5 or 6 Shapechanger or Dharma 8 or 9 Kuei-jin ? I just know these guys' death will make extreme shock , maybe leave a legend legend ? (Do you know that ? OMG , a demi-god like guys was kill by a Mortal ... what a nonsense ! ) And their superior may revenge for it .
    The mage who acomplishes so has the potential to become quite legendary, yes, altrough that depends on how "public" was this being (and how public was the execution). Killing a Vassilisa it's likely a lot harder than killing Baba Yaga, but Baba Yaga's death left an empire of subordinates of all supernatural races to crumble. If you were to find and kill Vassilisa probably only other Nictuku would know or care (IF the Nictuku know each other, that is).

    And he probably has achieved something on that level before. With that power level?, he would have to be a very lazy hunter to do otherwise.

    That and much more.

    With that much magely power and knowledge at his fingertips, erasing ALL supernatural creatures isn't a crazy, unreachable, dream (like it happens to most Hunters) but a question of "how much will it cost to do it".

    Just like Voormas had plans to kill death, this guy may had crazy plans to eradicate all magical creatures from the world. Not just a dream, but concrete projects to do so. Plans that didn't come to fruition, obviously, or there wouldn't be a Hell on Earth. Plans that, perhaps, were foiled by enemies that may or may not be dead now.

    Perhaps he never got Arete above 5 because his hatred for magick prevents him to become more magical than he already is.
    Last edited by Aleph; 10-26-2018, 12:51 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Aleph View Post

      Perhaps he never got Arete above 5 because his hatred for magick prevents him to become more magical than he already is.
      The reason why he has such low Arete is that my freind thinks , a mage with low Arete (5-) can survive the Avatar Storm and so on much easier in Hell on Earth ... I don't know why , Does this have any settings ? I just know a mage with High Arete should live out of the Earth bacause of the Paradox (Like Jade Demon in Book of Chantries ?)

      But , in my opinion , low Arete is also Suitable to this guy . He is a pragmatist having no interest in Knowledge , just for Kill itself . He prefers finding out how to kill efficiently . So he can way beyond but not way way beyond , ArchSpheres may difficult to him .

      Originally posted by Aleph View Post

      I think that makes Zero more useful than most archmages in a magical sense, but not necessarily more agressive due to his relatively low Arete and because Archspheres add a lot in terms of magical muscle. He's nearly unbeatable in flexibility but can be beaten in instant power and general "magical muscle"

      Due to his higher Arete Porthos would still likely win in a white room against this guy, simply because 1-2 dots in every sphere suffice to counter all of them. Anything the Zero can do in the spur of the moment Porthos can counter and even redirect. On the other hand, Archspheres can be quite overwhelming.
      So if he has very high Arete and Avatar(8+ or even 9+ , that's common in most conditions ) , can he become a over-Archmage Master ? Although ArchSpheres are very overpowerful , Force 6 can have effects that only Lv.9 or 10 Disciplines can achieve...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
        The reason why he has such low Arete is that my freind thinks , a mage with low Arete (5-) can survive the Avatar Storm and so on much easier in Hell on Earth
        Weeeelll. That isn't an "in game" reason. As you say, it makes sense for this character, but still it must be noted.

        Your friend may want to consider that, really, with all spheres at 5 the Avatar Storm is no big deal. There's a few cannon Rotes that protect against the Storm and he can use them all. Heck, with a little research he should be able to invent a shield better than any of those.

        I just know a mage with High Arete should live out of the Earth bacause of the Paradox
        Correlation doesn't imply causation. Having a high Arete doesn't imply having high Paradox. One can have Arete 10 and Paradox 0. It just happens that powerful mages (and this NPC is one) tend to be old and thus have lots of Paradox. This mage is old and powerful, he should have high Paradox regardless of Arete. Unless he did something to get rid of it.

        So if he has very high Arete and Avatar(8+ or even 9+ , that's common in most conditions ) , can he become a over-Archmage Master ? Although ArchSpheres are very overpowerful , Force 6 can have effects that only Lv.9 or 10 Disciplines can achieve...
        Yes. In some ways he already is.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          (...) Heck, with a little research he should be able to invent a shield better than any of those.
          Do you think this because this Mage has a rating of 5 in all of the Spheres, or because of his Abilities scores, or because of some other reason(s) ? Based on what is written about this Mage in this thread, I don't see any reasons why he in particular would he be able to invent a Spell or a Rote that would be better in regard to protecting a person from a danger related to the Umbra, compared to those Effects that already exist.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

            Do you think this because this Mage has a rating of 5 in all of the Spheres, or because of his Abilities scores, or because of some other reason(s) ? Based on what is written about this Mage in this thread, I don't see any reasons why he in particular would he be able to invent a Spell or a Rote that would be better in regard to protecting a person from a danger related to the Umbra, compared to those Effects that already exist.
            Spheres represent magical knowledge. He also has a decent Cosmology rating and a superb mind. So...since he knows everything that needs to be known about magic and a lot about the universe, I think he would need to be very lazy to not come up with a better shield (provide the St aproves). Not that he needs a better one.

            Personally I think if someone it's capable of analizing what makes Storm Wardens special and reproduce it it's someone very intelligent with Spirit 5, Prime 5, Life 5, some Entropy & Mind trown there for good measure...idk, I just think better shields should be possible. And he has the dots, now he just need a character to use them
            Last edited by Aleph; 10-29-2018, 10:57 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              I think for me, the big obstacle is the low arete. It feels very contrived to me that a character would max out every sphere but not increase their arete past the bare minimum required for the powers. And while I would agree that these maximum sphere rankings would represent the character's magickal knowledge within their paradigm, if I were the Storyteller, I'd probably require a bit more than that when it comes to something like understanding the Storm Wardens. I feel like the understanding of greater magickal theory, the Tapestry and Tellurian is better represented by the arete than the individual spheres.

              That's probably one of those things where every storyteller would have a different take on it, though.
              Last edited by kalinara; 10-29-2018, 05:05 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                You don't need to have other Archmages help if you want to become an Archmage, albeit obviously such help would be very useful. Archmages are rare because few mages realize that Mastery it's not the end of the road. Having an Archmage teaching you would allow to realize that rather easily, but enough delving on the misteries of the universe should suffice to break that barrier
                Uh , let me ask some question :

                1 . So when you can learn a Lv.6 Sphere is nothing to do with your age ? A very young mage can also become an Archmage ? I remember there are some examples like Dante and Marianna ...

                2 . What will happen if Orphan group has an Archmage ? I know this is a very very rare condition . Many Orphan has low rank Spheres .Can he also leave a Legend ? I can't imagine a guy who can be equal to vampire Meths or even Antes at most walking on the street like a Mortal ...
                Last edited by Rock113; 10-31-2018, 08:42 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                  1 . So when you can learn a Lv.6 Sphere is nothing to do with your age ? A very young mage can also become an Archmage ? I remember there are some examples like Dante and Marianna ...
                  Well, learning the 6th level takes at least 5 years (on top of the time it took to reach the 5 level) if you use MotA or at least 20 if you use Horizon's (if my memory doesn't fail). Apart from that there's no other age limit, but that's the bare minimum it takes (on top of the time it took you to become a Master) even if you're an absolute prodigy with an Archmage as teacher. Most mages take a few lifetimes to reach that level.

                  2 . What will happen if Orphan group has an Archmage ? I know this is a very very rare condition . Many Orphan has low rank Spheres .
                  It would likely become a powerful Orphan group unless the Archmage deliberately chooses otherwise. An Orphan with an Archmage as Mentor has little to envy established mages.

                  Can he also leave a Legend ? I can't imagine a guy who can be equal to vampire Meths or even Antes at most walking on the street like a Mortal ...
                  To leave a Legend you need to interact a lot with normal people. Merlin didn't become a Legend because he was powerful, he became a Legend because he helped to found Camelot (and did mighty deeds doing so). In the modern setting that's to invite Paradox (unless he's very cautious) and Fame (a problem when you have many enemies).
                  Last edited by Aleph; 10-31-2018, 10:44 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                    Spheres represent magical knowledge. (...) So...since he knows everything that needs to be known about magic (...)
                    I don't see how this can be the case. If it was so, then he - and any Mage with a rating of 5 in a given Sphere - would be capable of all the Rotes that exist ; to the point of them not being Rotes for them at all, and it is not like this. The fact that there are some Magick Effects that are specifically noted as being very hard to learn, or as being obscure, directly contradicts the notion of level 5 in a given Sphere indicating that a Mage " knows everything" in regard to a given kind of Magick.

                    Also, the M:tA books regularly mention that some Mages are known for, or are experts, in regard to a type of Spells or a kind of Magick. There are also many Effects that are described as being noteworthy. This directly implies that there is variance and that there are distinctions in regard to capabilities of Mages, including in regard to Mages having the same ratings in given Spheres.

                    I don't think that having a given level in a Sphere gives a Mage the capability of casting the entire breadth of Spells within this level. I think that in regard to casting Spells, it indicates that the Mage can accomplish feats of Magick within this level. Depending on the Mage, some type of Effects might be beyond her or him unless considerable effort is put into accomplishing a particular Effect ; and even then some Effects or some feats might be not possible for some Mages.
                    I also think that the ability to cast Conjuctional Effects - especially complex or potent ones, or those involving three or more kinds of Magick - needs to be learned and practiced ; it does not come innately because a Mage has multiple Spheres.
                    I think that Sphere ratings - including level 5 - represent a Mage's knowledge, attitude, and skill that allow them to achieve some Effects of a given level ; Sphere ratings also indicate the potential and the possibility for a Mage to develop their Magickal capabilities within a given Sphere level.

                    I know the rules might make the impression that having a given level in a Sphere indicates capability to cast all Effects of a given level ; but as far as I recall there is nothing else written in the M:tA books that implies that it is the case, and a lot that implies that it is not so.

                    All in all, I don't think the character outlined in this thread is particularly special - or more capable or powerful - because he has ratings of 5 in all Spheres. I think that the majority of the named important and renowned Mages from the M:tA books are more knowledgeable, wiser, and more capable than him overall ; despite that they have ( for example ) one, two, or three Spheres at level 5. It is true that this character is capable of much greater variety with his Magick than the majority of Mages ; though his Arete of 5 is a limit in regard to what he can achieve.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 11-02-2018, 05:24 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

                      I don't see how this can be the case. If it was so, then he - and any Mage with a rating of 5 in a given Sphere - would be capable of all the Rotes that exist
                      You're misconstruing what I said. I never said that he would be able to cast every rote that exists (impossible without all Spheres at 10, and even then one could argue that you still need absolute Knowledge and some sort of "complete cosmic Paradigm" that's hard to imagine). I said that he has all the magical knowledge he needs to have not that he has every magical knowledge to be learned in the universe.

                      There's a LOOOOONG jump from being able to craft a shield against the Storm (something lots of mages were able to do after a small period of research, since Infinite Tappestry happens little after the Storm) and being able to, say, cure the Curse of Caine that's explicitly noted as requiring Occult 6 and has only been done in legend.

                      IT doesn't mention the need of a teacher, a Paradigm or a special Knowledge to grasp these Rotes. How did you learned them it's left to the imagination of the player and nowhere says you can't be the one discovering them nor that you need a specially high anything to understand their principles.

                      I also think that the ability to cast Conjuctional Effects - especially complex or potent ones, or those involving three or more kinds of Magick - needs to be learned and practiced ; it does not come innately because a Mage has multiple Spheres.
                      If learning that was a problem then Orphans wouldn't be able to cast Conjuctional Effects. And they are capable of that. Since you don't need a tutor or anything special to "learn and practice" this capability I don't see why this mage in question wouldn't have it.

                      The fact that there are some Magick Effects that are specifically noted as being very hard to learn, or as being obscure, directly contradicts the notion of level 5 in a given Sphere indicating that a Mage " knows everything" in regard to a given kind of Magick.

                      I don't think that having a given level in a Sphere gives a Mage the capability of casting the entire breadth of Spells within this level. I think that in regard to casting Spells, it indicates that the Mage can accomplish feats of Magick within this level. Depending on the Mage, some type of Effects might be beyond her or him unless considerable effort is put into accomplishing a particular Effect ; and even then some Effects or some feats might be not possible for some Mages.
                      I never said that, but that Spheres do represent magical knowledge/understanding both theoretical and practical it's easy to prove: You don't need to extrapolate anything, it's right there in the Basic. Just go to page 64 of M20:
                      Originally posted by Da Book
                      " Okay – so how do we do this magick thing? By learning to use the Spheres - fields of knowledge that focus on nine elements of reality and then show us how to juggle them"
                      And thus having all Spheres at 5 represents an impressive magical understanding (trough not all understanding about the universe - hence why I mentioned his high Cosmology and Mental Traits too)

                      And I would like to note that Effects specifically noted as being very hard to learn are VERY RARE compared with those that say nothing of the like. And the difficulty it's more often than not related with Paradigmatical incompatibilities. The Rote that it's natural to one faction isn't natural to another, but only very, very, few rotes (to the point of counting them with one hand) require anything more than the correct Paradigm and the correct Sphere level to be learned

                      You can protect against the Storm with regular resistence to Aggravated Damage as per IT and the most basic rote that provides protection it's just a Spirit 1/Entropy 1 rote to find holes in the Storm. Nothing says these rotes are special or hard to grasp in any way (except the Nephandi method, and that isn't even the best shield).

                      Also, the M:tA books regularly mention that some Mages are known for, or are experts, in regard to a type of Spells or a kind of Magick. There are also many Effects that are described as being noteworthy. This directly implies that there is variance and that there are distinctions in regard to capabilities of Mages, including in regard to Mages having the same ratings in given Spheres.
                      Yeah, and since storm shield rotes aren't noted as noteworthy I don't see why you bring this up. Nothing says you need to be "expert in this kind of magick" to create a better shield.

                      It doesn't seem to be that hard since Spirit 1/Entropy 1 already let's you analize the Storm well enough to find breaches and Spirit 5 implies enough understanding about Avatars to manipulate them to a limited extent (unless you think Basic Rotes and that which it's described in the Basic Fluff are "special", which I would want a quote from the books before believing).

                      I'm not saying a better shield wouldn't need research, just that it's the kind of research such a knowledgeable mage should be able to enact.

                      I mentioned analizing Storm Wardens because that seemed like an interesting, fun, proposal. But that was just an example, and not necessarily the easiest way to craft a better shield. Spirit 5 coupled with Correspondence 5 and maybe Prime 5 might allow to place a methaphysical Ward on your Soul against "avatars" (your own Avatar as the only excluded from the Ward, obviously) at ST discretion.

                      But let's try to make a better Shield with pure RAW and nothing "special":

                      Let's take the Rote that let's you shield yourself within the "skin" of a Spirit. A dirty but quick method to survive the Storm that's hatted because spirits dislike to be shreded by the Storm and thus using it get's you enemies in the Umbra.

                      Let's remember that one of the basic (altrough unexplained) powers of Spirit 5 it's to create new (unaligned) spirits.

                      OK, so the idea it's to create a Spirit specially designed to be worn and struggle against the Storm. You create a spirit with low Traits but high Essence, add a few of the shielding Rotes as Charms, and voila: You have a Spirit whose only purpose it's to be used to pass the Storm, who has the powers to do so (saving you the effort to cast the Rote), and who nobody it's going to miss if it dies. That way you don't have to risk your Familiar nor cast complex rituals every time you go over.



                      I know the rules might make the impression that having a given level in a Sphere indicates capability to cast all Effects of a given level ; but as far as I recall there is nothing else written in the M:tA books that implies that it is the case, and a lot that implies that it is not so.
                      [irony] Oh, if ONLY The Rules imply you should be capable of it then obviously you aren't [/irony].

                      But really, requisites other than Sphere Level and Paradigm are the exception, not the rule. A given ST it's in his or her right to say you need something else (and I did added that this guy has impressive Knowledges and Mental Traits), but the book doesn't. And what the book doesn't say it's entirely the realm of ST discretion (with the exception of very few Rotes that explicitly say so). And the Paradigm of this dude it's unknown so I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt

                      All in all, I don't think the character outlined in this thread is particularly special - or more capable or powerful - because he has ratings of 5 in all Spheres. I think that the majority of the named important and renowned Mages from the M:tA books are more knowledgeable, wiser, and more capable than him overall ; despite that they have ( for example ) one, two, or three Spheres at level 5. It is true that this character is capable of much greater variety with his Magick than the majority of Mages.
                      I'm not arguing against that. On the contrary: Read my first posts in this thread, I've already argued against that idea saying that you need other stuff (allies, nodes, talismans, libraries, Arete) to trully enact all that potential. I've copiously argued that Backgrounds are important and that Porthos, in spite of not being capable of doing everything that this mage can do, would still win in a battle, and the same principles can be applied to other stuff.

                      But note that none of those wiser mages you're mentioning was involved in the craft of Storm Shields. Or at least nothing of the fluff about the investigation that made the shields possible mentions any of those luminaries being the head researchers.

                      though his Arete of 5 is a limit in regard to what he can achieve
                      Now that you mention it, Arete was never mentioned in ANY book watsoever as limiting the type of Rotes you can learn once you have the required Sphere Level. Not once in the entirety of Mage as far as I know.

                      I've read books that state that you need a special Paradigm to learn a Rote. I'v read books stating that you need a special Knolwedge to learn a Rote. But Arete it's only a factor when learning the whole of the Sphere and never again. It's more of a meta-knowledge that serves to learn the more abstract knowledge of the Spheres than something you would use to craft concrete Effects

                      So I would say that requiring high Arete to craft a Rote it's one rare choice for a limiter. Certainly not one that I've seen ever used in the canon, and I've seen a lot.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 11-02-2018, 11:36 AM.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X