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  • Locking Force effects

    You can lock effects in objects with Matter, in beings with Life. How would you lock with Force? Lock an effect in this light of a lightbulb?? Can't think how to lock an effect in a magnetic or gravity field...

    Also, I want a mage to lock an efect of conjuring plasma bolts in a special gun, whenever he pulls the trigger. I know the normal way would be to cast the effect using the gun as instrument. But i want to be abble to shoot without making the Arete roll, like it was a real gun.. Maybe locking the effect into some internal magnetic aspect of the gun?

    Oh, and no Matter or wonder involved, it's possible?

  • #2
    Most common locking to forces IMHO is attaching something to weather. There are rotes for instance that create bad winds or attach luck to a breeze. Locking to forces in other contexts are a bit alien but one could make for instance a healing fire that didn't burn or what have you.

    Conjuring plasma bolts - Generally effects will always use the mage's arete at the time of use unless it's a talisman which will use the item's arete. You could have amped up bullets instead as trinkets or charms created enhanced munitions but that'll use the appropriate rules there and will only work on a small batch at a time. If you're looking for something where you don't have to roll, you need yourself a mundane way of doing it for wherever you want to be. Plasma bolts aren't within most reality zones as mundane so you're going to need an arete roll.

    Can't really get there from here nor do I think you'd want to. If your character can do it so could every other mage with appropriate paradigm and spheres and that tends to create a world vastly different than the one presented in the rule books.

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    • #3
      I was thinking something like using the internal magnet or eletromagnet of the gun to lock the effect of turning the magnetic field into bolts of high speed plasma. The effect involves Force transformation and the locking would work with the magnetic field inside the gun.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
        You can lock effects in objects with Matter, in beings with Life. How would you lock with Force? Lock an effect in this light of a lightbulb?? Can't think how to lock an effect in a magnetic or gravity field...
        Without double-checking the locking rules, I'd envision such effects would be things like:

        NWO, Mind locked to Forces: "The lighting in this interrogation room is specially calibrated to render suspects subdued and cooperative."

        Ecstatic, Life locked to Forces: "Anyone that hears our gig will feel refreshed and relaxed."

        Void Engineer, Matter locked to Forces: "Firearms will not function within the artificial gravity well of our station, to avoid cowboy soldiers causing a hull breach."

        Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
        Also, I want a mage to lock an efect of conjuring plasma bolts in a special gun, whenever he pulls the trigger. I know the normal way would be to cast the effect using the gun as instrument. But i want to be abble to shoot without making the Arete roll, like it was a real gun.. Maybe locking the effect into some internal magnetic aspect of the gun?
        I don't think I'd allow that, especially sans Matter - it doesn't feel right to use locking as a form of suspending. I'd think a "transmute the magnetism of this gun into plasma, locked to this gun's gravity well" would just mean you carry around a gun that constantly emits plasma.

        You might put a magnetic coil on the end of the barrel that has a locked acceleration effect, such that the force of a bullet leaving the barrel is accelerated/enhanced?


        I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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        • #5
          I see.. The locking must be in a constant effect, not a trigger. But the effect could be transforming the magnetic field into plasma, and the gun could have a constant field that is increased or decreased by a trigger.
          In this way, the is a little field, insignificant, being turned into plasma that doesn't even get out of the gun. And when the mage wants, he push a button that increases the magbetic field and thus the plasma that goes out of the gun like a line or a precise flamethrower. The range would depend on the field strength in the first place.

          Would it be any easier if it didn't involved other mages? Just the caster?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
            Would it be any easier if it didn't involved other mages? Just the caster?
            In general when you're locking the effect the target it's the pattern where you're locking the effect. The only instance where a locked effect only inolves the caster it's when you lock the effect on the caster - nedless to say this would look a lot different from your proposal (i.e. Unless you're made of pure energy, it uses Life).

            I see.. The locking must be in a constant effect, not a trigger. But the effect could be transforming the magnetic field into plasma, and the gun could have a constant field that is increased or decreased by a trigger.
            In this way, the is a little field, insignificant, being turned into plasma that doesn't even get out of the gun. And when the mage wants, he push a button that increases the magbetic field and thus the plasma that goes out of the gun like a line or a precise flamethrower. The range would depend on the field strength in the first place.
            I wouldn't allow to increase/decrease the effect of a locked effect on demand - once casted the potency it's set.

            But the opposite could work. Make a "can" of some sort that could withstand the energy of the plasma (perhaps converting it back to the energy that sustains the field) and a triggering mechanism that "opens" the "can" naturally releasing the plasma. The magnetic field would need to be sustained - a locked effect doesn't remain when the pattern that it's locking it disappears - which probably requires a big amount of successes. Unlike Wonders, locked effects are just normal effects that follow a pattern arround - they're active while their Duration last and can't be deactivated temporarily (you need to cast them again to "reactivate" the ffect)

            Still, what you want to make it's - by the book - a Wonder. A Wonder isn't permanently activated, has a trigger, can be "user specific". It fills all the points on your list.
            Last edited by Aleph; 12-11-2018, 10:40 AM.

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            • #7
              Yes, you had a similar idea. The effect is constantly "shooting" plasma and the "can" only controls when to let it go by opening and closing. Something similar to the cyclops laser from X-men.

              I was thinking of even controlling the power of the beam by altering the strength of the field inside the gun. It's not changing the effect, it still is "transforming X ammount of magnetic field into a Y power plasma". What happens is that i will vary the value of X. And the number of succcesses would determine how Y behaves : maybe Y=2X or even more.

              This way the effect is constant and locked in a Forces pattern. Beautiful.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                Yes, you had a similar idea. The effect is constantly "shooting" plasma and the "can" only controls when to let it go by opening and closing. Something similar to the cyclops laser from X-men.

                I was thinking of even controlling the power of the beam by altering the strength of the field inside the gun. It's not changing the effect, it still is "transforming X ammount of magnetic field into a Y power plasma". What happens is that i will vary the value of X. And the number of succcesses would determine how Y behaves : maybe Y=2X or even more.

                This way the effect is constant and locked in a Forces pattern. Beautiful.
                That feels super unbalanced unless you've got a pretty potent quintessence flow to go with this.

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                • #9
                  It would need a permanent (or lasting) source of energy, but not necessarily Quintessence. Just something to keep the magnetic field working (some big ass batteries, perhaps?. With the instruction of never allowing the device to go w/o energy or it looses it's "fractal-electronic-geometry-technobabble" that allows to convert one energy into another...or something like that).

                  Also it beggets the question of when a pattern stops being the same pattern. Are the hot embers of an old fire still holding the pattern of the fire?, how far you can "lower" the intensity of an energy pattern before it ceases being the same pattern?. These the ST would need to answer

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PhillyCuriosity View Post

                    That feels super unbalanced unless you've got a pretty potent quintessence flow to go with this.
                    I don't see how this is unbalanced as it works exactly like a normal gun, except that it may be powered up by magick. The catch here is doing this without Matter, which isn't unbalanced, but creative.
                    What would be the difference of using this or a sniper rifle that is powered with Matter or even Forces? It's just the fluff of using a plasma gun..

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                      It would need a permanent (or lasting) source of energy, but not necessarily Quintessence. Just something to keep the magnetic field working (some big ass batteries, perhaps?. With the instruction of never allowing the device to go w/o energy or it looses it's "fractal-electronic-geometry-technobabble" that allows to convert one energy into another...or something like that).

                      Also it beggets the question of when a pattern stops being the same pattern. Are the hot embers of an old fire still holding the pattern of the fire?, how far you can "lower" the intensity of an energy pattern before it ceases being the same pattern?. These the ST would need to answer
                      Actually, there are lots of ways to do that. There are a lot of different Forces the gun can use for its purpose. Big ass batteries, big ass magnet, potential energy from springs, even the gravity or heat from the environment could work... But to keep it simple, i guess a potent magnet, battery or spring that can be held inside the device is the best.
                      Remember that Forces 3 can increase or reduce forces as well.

                      There is the ember and theres the heat the ember produces. The ember is Matter, the heat (temperature) is Forces.

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                      • #12
                        You're casting a spell that does a handful of things:

                        1.) Takes some form of forces produced by a battery or other source, X, and converts it into energy of form Y.
                        2.) Increases the magnitude of energy Y, if battery X's output is insufficient to produce dangerous levels of Y.
                        3.) Directs energy Y++ towards your target.
                        4.) If the magnitude of Y++ is sufficient that its blowback would damage you, or your device, or Battery X, keep that from happening.

                        That's all manageable with Forces, but the successes required may be an issue:

                        1b.) The successes for the conversion would have to be for the largest amount of X you want to change into Y.
                        2b.) The successes for the enhancement would depend on start and desired end point. Starting with a very weak source might not be practical, as you'd need to get from there to Y++.
                        3b.) Fairly routine compared to everything else going on.
                        4b.) The other issue is that you're always producing an output of Y++ (scales with X), and you can't shut down Source X without ending the effect. If the "low energy" state of your source, plus any enhancement, would result in dangerous levels of Y++, you'd need some method of containing it, and that may require Matter.

                        As per M20, it looks like Locking isn't an issue for this effect. See Pg 511. The target of the effect is the Forces output of a specific target, source X, so you can't swap your batteries. Having the mechanism "carry" the device and use any batteries you loaded in would require you to lock it with Matter, I think.


                        I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                          You're casting a spell that does a handful of things:

                          1.) Takes some form of forces produced by a battery or other source, X, and converts it into energy of form Y.
                          2.) Increases the magnitude of energy Y, if battery X's output is insufficient to produce dangerous levels of Y.
                          3.) Directs energy Y++ towards your target.
                          4.) If the magnitude of Y++ is sufficient that its blowback would damage you, or your device, or Battery X, keep that from happening.

                          That's all manageable with Forces, but the successes required may be an issue:

                          1b.) The successes for the conversion would have to be for the largest amount of X you want to change into Y.
                          2b.) The successes for the enhancement would depend on start and desired end point. Starting with a very weak source might not be practical, as you'd need to get from there to Y++.
                          3b.) Fairly routine compared to everything else going on.
                          4b.) The other issue is that you're always producing an output of Y++ (scales with X), and you can't shut down Source X without ending the effect. If the "low energy" state of your source, plus any enhancement, would result in dangerous levels of Y++, you'd need some method of containing it, and that may require Matter.

                          As per M20, it looks like Locking isn't an issue for this effect. See Pg 511. The target of the effect is the Forces output of a specific target, source X, so you can't swap your batteries. Having the mechanism "carry" the device and use any batteries you loaded in would require you to lock it with Matter, I think.

                          1) That's correct.
                          2) Yes, but this is just how the effect works, no additional successes needed here.
                          3) Not necessary. The user still needs to aim the gun. The energy just comes out from the only pssible way
                          4) I think that turning power up and down could be controlled by mundane ways, like a potentiometer in the device, or magickaly, by for example, saying something, since sound is still in the field of Forces control. When you cast a fly spell on someone with Forces+Life, the target is still able to choose the direction of the flying, so a locked effect isn't completely static.

                          But you're right, if the battery or spring or any other source runs out or breaks, then the effect goes off. But it can always be cast again by the mage.

                          Actually, the whole issue is locking the effect using only Forces. If the mage had Forces and Matter, he could lock this effect of throwing energy bolts when a password is said in a wand, couldn't he?

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                          • #14
                            That's a...far more permissive reading than I would arrive at.

                            I'm not certain why the energy emanated would be directional. Are you starting with a lightning gun, such that you have a thing that fires your desired energy at a target? Otherwise, turning, say, the electricity from a battery into superheated plasma is going to fill your battery and gun with plasma, which will then move around and react with stuff around it like superheated plasma does. You'd need a container capable of safely holding it, even if you intend to point the open end at someone else. Even then, you'd need to steer it, unless the force you create would travel along the proposed route under its own power. Think of turning sound into electricity - it would ground itself through the path of least resistance unless you also had some method of preventing that.

                            I would not allow this effect to be freely dialed once in place. The effect always does the same math (1X = 2Y), and you can modulate X. I don't consider flight to be a meaningful precedent - Would you say that the subject of Circe's Life shapechanging effect can decide to change back? And then, during the Duration, change into any other animal?

                            Contingent triggers for effects are Time 4. I wouldn't allow a verbal trigger just because Forces can perceive sound. Would you permit adding Mind 1 to an effect to have a trigger of "whenever I feel like it"?

                            Locking causes a stationary effect with a duration to instead follow along with a Pattern that it is anchored to. It does not make that Pattern capable of producing that effect - the effect exists, and the Pattern moves it around.

                            Locking:
                            I want this rod to be supercooled (Forces, locked to Matter).
                            I want this door to be overlooked (Mind, locked to Matter)
                            I want the light of this candle to reveal spirits (Spirit, locked to Forces)

                            Artifact:
                            I want this wand to be able to shoot lightning.
                            I want this scepter to freeze things it touches.
                            I want this badge to make its wearer unnoticeable.


                            I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                            • #15
                              I think there are 2 points here that you are not adressing.

                              First, this is still a magick effect. You are treating it as if the device should handle all the physics complications. This is not just an equipment, it's an object that carry a Force pattern just to have something ro lock the spell on with Forces. The rest is pure magick, I don't want a real working plasma gun. For all we know, it could be done with a pencil and Forces+Matter to lock the efect or, as I said, even only Forces if you proceed to close all the gaps and that leads to the second observation :

                              A locking effect doesn't have to be static, as per fly example. It is not a trigger, since the effect os not going off. If it does, it will have to be recast.
                              I can lock an effect in a doorway to only let skinny people go through, or only people who says a password while stepping through. The effect is always present, but it's dinamic.
                              The target of the locked fly spell can choose speed and direction of the flight. Doesn't mean the spell is a trigger.

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