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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
    There is the ember and theres the heat the ember produces. The ember is Matter, the heat (temperature) is Forces.
    That's not exactly what I meant. There's a handful of problems that happen when you don't differentiate between patterns of Forces

    If I lock a Mind effect that paralizes people pattern on that fire (hypnotic fire)...what happens if I then let the fire run amok and create a forest fire?. Will the effect paralize everyone in hundreds of miles?, all the firemans that come to stop the fire?. To allow a localized (few successes) effect to expand trough miles and affect hundreds or thouzands of people seems far beyond the reach of the rule.

    More so, "embers" it's plural. So, what happens if I take a few embers and start a new fire?. Will the new fire have the same properties since both are "the heat the embers produce"?. Again, the idea to replicate an effect w/o rolling doesn't seem to follow the spirit of the rule.

    I would say that the pattern you're using to lock it's effect should remain of similar properties during all the time the spell lasts. I.E: a fire shouldn't leave certain parameters (a rough, aproximate, area) in order to keep an effect locked. And if a locked effect can be partitioned or diluted at all, it will always lose its potency in some fashion when one does so.

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    • #17
      Dont forget that you can use Time 4 to create a 'trigger' for an effect, that would allow you to create a oneshot plasma weapon from a single casting of an effect. Multiple shot weapons are definitely in the area of wonders as far as I'm concerned. You should be more worried about the paradox though!

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      • #18
        If your effect was to create plasma blasts, that's Forces 3/Prime 2. That's not what you're proposing. You're suggesting that you instead use existing Forces, convert them into your desired Force, and then direct that towards your target as a blast. Conversion of Forces leads to complications. If I convert my body's electrical field into fire, I'm going to get burned, right? I've just covered my entire body in a thin layer of fire. It doesn't not burn me just because it's fire created by magic. You can use more magic to account for those complications, or you can use the traits of your device to deal with them.

        Your effect is to create some amount of hazardous plasma using an existing, portable energy source.

        You also want to contain that plasma so it doesn't destroy the batteries or gun, and you want it to blast out towards your target on command.

        You also also want to enhance the output of energy so that you can use a relatively weak source to create plasma intense enough to use as a weapon. (M20 suggests that degrading or enhancing elemental energies may require conjunctional Entropy 3.)

        You also also also want to be able to either dial the level of enhancement so that the constant conversion never poses an issue in a resting state, or that the effect can be turned off and on(?) in response to some condition.

        Note that "setting triggers for energy fluctuations at some later interval" is the textbook example of Forces 3/Time 4 in M20.

        The reason I don't think flight or a ban is a meaningful precedent is because flight's effect is flight, and a ban's effect is to keep things out that don't meet the criteria. The effect never changes, and its flexibility is inherent and necessary for the effect as described. In this case, the dynamism and alsos aren't "the effect". They're conveniences to enable a character to achieve an effect that normally requires many Arete rolls, more Spheres, or an Artifact, without having any of those. Mage uses the "Magickal Feats" chart to distinguish between effects that are simple and those that are mighty, complex, or both. This one is starting to look pretty complex, to me.


        I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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        • #19
          All depends on how you put it. I can say that flight is a very complex effect, even more that what I am trying if I sy that you want an effect that will let your target fly up, and also fly down, also fly right, also fly left. And even spin, etc. Flight even does the "enhance the output", since the target can fly slower or faster, depending on what she wants. I agree that it would be easier if done with Forces 3/Prime 2, but it still is doable only with Forces 3 and not that hard if you put it this way:

          Your effect is to create some amount of hazardous plasma using an existing, portable energy source.
          Not only that, but to create a beam/ray/bolt/wathever of plasma in the direction of the gun. Just like you can cast a line of fire from a wand into the direction it is pointing. It is how the effect is made, the mage can choose exaclty how the effect will take place in reality. It is not something that should "cost"more successes, it's the description of the spell.

          You also want to contain that plasma so it doesn't destroy the batteries or gun, and you want it to blast out towards your target on command.
          This deppends on how the mage creates the effect. Like I said above, if the effect alreadycreates a line of plasma you don't have to worry about destroying the battery or the gun. Again, it's how the effect takes place in reality.

          You also also want to enhance the output of energy so that you can use a relatively weak source to create plasma intense enough to use as a weapon
          This is right. And now the effect will require the extra successes to deal damage. The more successes the caster rolls, more damage the gun can do.

          You also also also want to be able to either dial the level of enhancement so that the constant conversion never poses an issue in a resting state, or that the effect can be turned off and on(?) in response to some condition.
          This one might or might not be part of the effect. As posted before in this thread, if the caster wants the beam to increase or decrease, let's say by a voice command, then it is one more thing the spell would do and I agree that this one might cost more successes on the Arete roll. Or it can be done with the mundane control of the "gun"itself, raising or decreasing it's power source, just like you do with a potentiometer when you want to turn your audio speaker very loud or veeery low that you almost can't hear it.

          So, there is no trigger, and thus, no need for Time 4.

          The effect could be simply described as "Turning the energy source of the gun into a plasma beam" the pointing is part of the focus of the spell, just like you could make a flight spell that will let the target fly in the direction she throws her hands superman style. And the output control could be made by the gun itself.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Lord Revan
            This is right. And now the effect will require the extra successes to deal damage. The more successes the caster rolls, more damage the gun can do.
            The energy conversion into damage it's a tricky subject that's not very studied in the books. Energy cannot just "increase" out of nowhere, you're talking about reversing entropy here.

            Normally this doesn't come up because you use Prime 2 to conjure energy out of nowhere, but if you want to convert existing enegy into damage I would say that the energy source has to be potent enough to cause that damage, you cannot transform a weak energy source into a super-laser w/o Entropy (to reverse entropy, as suggested in M20) or Prime (to conjure more from nowhere).

            I wouldn't make this to depend solely on successes. Sucesses would determine the ceiling and the enrgy input would determine the actual damage

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

              The energy conversion into damage it's a tricky subject that's not very studied in the books. Energy cannot just "increase" out of nowhere, you're talking about reversing entropy here.

              Normally this doesn't come up because you use Prime 2 to conjure energy out of nowhere, but if you want to convert existing enegy into damage I would say that the energy source has to be potent enough to cause that damage, you cannot transform a weak energy source into a super-laser w/o Entropy (to reverse entropy, as suggested in M20) or Prime (to conjure more from nowhere).

              I wouldn't make this to depend solely on successes. Sucesses would determine the ceiling and the enrgy input would determine the actual damage
              You are right. I can think of a few ways of dealing with this without Prime:

              - Using a suficiently powerful source. Maybe a very strong magnet or battery. This have the drawback of having to recharge/change the source from time to time.

              - Making it transform external energies to fuel its power. There would be several implications, like if the kind of energy it transforms isn't present at some moment it won't work. Also, there would be external implications, like transforming the heat of the ambient would make it colder.

              -Using a point of Quintessence. Don't know how much would be necessary, tough. A point per shot would be too much. Maybe a point to energize it for a time. Like 1 or 2 points for a day.

              Also, its important to note that there are kinds of energies that are simply more deadly than others. If you transform the potential energy into fire/plasma it is the same amount of energy, but a way more deadly outcome.
              Or even turning the source energy into a kinetic bolt. A solid and sharp bolt of Force that can cut and harm the target. It is more energy friendly.

              Now I am wondering, when a flight spell is cast in someone, where does the energy to lift and move around the target come from? I mean, it takes a LOT of energy to move a 100kg fellow around in running speed (or more) and with 3 successes more je can do it all day. I think that magick isn't so restricted by actual physics laws, like nothing is created from nothing...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                Now I am wondering, when a flight spell is cast in someone, where does the energy to lift and move around the target come from? (...)
                Going by what I read in the first edition Corebook, a Forces Pattern is created and fueled ( with it's own amount of Quintessence ) for the duration of a particular Spell. I will check this later.
                Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-16-2018, 04:02 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                  Now I am wondering, when a flight spell is cast in someone, where does the energy to lift and move around the target come from? I mean, it takes a LOT of energy to move a 100kg fellow around in running speed (or more) and with 3 successes more je can do it all day. I think that magick isn't so restricted by actual physics laws, like nothing is created from nothing...
                  Well, in Revised this needed Forces 4. I think mages fly by manipulating/transforming gravity.

                  But, sure, magick shouldn't be restricted by actual physics laws. It has it's own laws.

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                  • #24
                    Muad'Dib there is no Quintessence cost for a flying spell (except for that hdydt chi craziness, let's not even consider that).

                    Aleph But the mage is not present anymore, nor using his concentration to change direction or speed. So, the spell is not as static as we thought it had to be to be locked. Also, this would mean that this effect wouldn't work in space.
                    Maybe, as the spell requires Forces/Life it can be fuelled by the body energy of the target. But this should have some consequences, such as tireness. Also, there is no way a body would provide enough energy to move such heavy weight around at "high" speed.
                    My point here is that the locked spells aren't as static as pointed in this thread. The target actually CAN interact with the effect and the caster doesn't have to mathematically show where does all that energy come from.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                      But the mage is not present anymore, nor using his concentration to change direction or speed.

                      Maybe, as the spell requires Forces/Life it can be fuelled by the body energy of the target. But this should have some consequences, such as tireness. Also, there is no way a body would provide enough energy to move such heavy weight around at "high" speed.
                      My point here is that the locked spells aren't as static as pointed in this thread. The target actually CAN interact with the effect and the caster doesn't have to mathematically show where does all that energy come from.
                      No.

                      Think about it: Magical/fantastical Life enhancements on others (like flame breathing, or at will invisibility, the examples in HDYDT) require Life 5 on top of aditional Spheres as per all the books ever written for every single Edition from 1st to M20. And M20 also demands Quintessence to sustain them. Locking effects obviously wasn't supposed to allow to create the same kind of effects at Life 3 and no cost.

                      If you could give someone "fire-breathing" powers with Life 3 with the (very scientific, in spite of you saying that science shouldn't matter) excuse that "the subject lowers the heat of his breathing to the point it doesn't hurt him" then nobody would use Life 5 + Quintessence, as it's stated to be in HDYDT.

                      Nobody would use Life 5 to create beings that can make themselves invisible (another canon example), because with Life 3 you can allow someone to become as invisible as they want (increasing or decreasing the way light reflects against them).

                      Nobody would use Life 5 to enhance beings if you were right...

                      So, no, you can't give the "power of flight" by locking...what you can do it's to send someone flying within set parameters and little or no control. Otherwise nobody would use Life 5 to give someone "at will" flight (a perfectly normal extension of the same rule that allows to give someone invisibility or fire breathing at will) because with Life 3 you can already do that and the subject just has to "lower the anti-gravitational force" in order to walk if he's tired of flying.

                      There's no way a ST that wants to respect the rules in a consistent fashion would allow any of this.

                      Also, this would mean that this effect wouldn't work in space.
                      There's gravity everywhere. Gravity moves the Earth at very high speeds in space. Gravity makes Earth stick orbiting the sun rather than being flung out of the solar system like a slingshot.

                      You float in space not because there's no gravity but because the the pull of the Earth at that distance it's weaker and can't stop your momentum (also the pull of the rest of the universe becomes sligthly more significative). But you're allways affected by gravity, and, as long as you orbit Earth, moving at high speeds arround the Sun. If you can alter how gravity interacts with stuff you can totally move in space - and since in space there's almost no friction, to fly in one direction at constant speed takes very little force- it would be different than moving inside Earth, but why shouldn't it be different?.

                      But really, only Technocrats should care about such science.

                      All that you should care about it's that giving others the power to interact with effects isn't high level magick for nothing. That if the rules provide examples of what you're trying to accomplish as a Wonder (plasma canon - Wonder since forever), they're assuming that's the way things work. That giving others superpowers it's assumed to be Life 5 and not Life 3 and "low it's intensity when you're tired of floating" in spite of what outliers of a recent rule may show.

                      While I and other ST's may be more lenient and allow such thing if it has heavy disadvantages over the common examples, you really shouldn't use a new rule and your scientific understanding of the rules to justify easier access to such powers.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 12-17-2018, 10:57 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                        No.

                        Think about it: Magical/fantastical Life enhancements on others (like flame breathing, or at will invisibility, the examples in HDYDT) require Life 5 on top of aditional Spheres as per all the books ever written for every single Edition from 1st to M20. And M20 also demands Quintessence to sustain them. Locking effects obviously wasn't supposed to allow to create the same kind of effects at Life 3 and no cost.

                        If you could give someone "fire-breathing" powers with Life 3 with the (very scientific, in spite of you saying that science shouldn't matter) excuse that "the subject lowers the heat of his breathing to the point it doesn't hurt him" then nobody would use Life 5 + Quintessence, as it's stated to be in HDYDT.

                        Nobody would use Life 5 to create beings that can make themselves invisible (another canon example), because with Life 3 you can allow someone to become as invisible as they want (increasing or decreasing the way light reflects against them).

                        Nobody would use Life 5 to enhance beings if you were right...

                        So, no, you can't give the "power of flight" by locking...what you can do it's to send someone flying within set parameters and little or no control. Otherwise nobody would use Life 5 to give someone "at will" flight (a perfectly normal extension of the same rule that allows to give someone invisibility or fire breathing at will) because with Life 3 you can already do that and the subject just has to "lower the anti-gravitational force" in order to walk if he's tired of flying.

                        There's no way a ST that wants to respect the rules in a consistent fashion would allow any of this.
                        All the time the books keeps repeating that to lock an effect in an object takes Matter 2, to lock in a simple living organism takes Life 2, to lock ibto yourself takes Life 3 and to lock into an complex living being takes Life 4.

                        You are confusing locking an effect into shapechanging a creature. Shapechanging allows way more than just locking a simple fly spell into someone. With Life 5 you can pretty much rewrite the whole body and it's functions of the target.

                        HDYDT states that you can lock levitating effects in pg75.

                        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                        There's gravity everywhere. Gravity moves the Earth at very high speeds in space. Gravity makes Earth stick orbiting the sun rather than being flung out of the solar system like a slingshot.

                        You float in space not because there's no gravity but because the the pull of the Earth at that distance it's weaker and can't stop your momentum (also the pull of the rest of the universe becomes sligthly more significative). But you're allways affected by gravity, and, as long as you orbit Earth, moving at high speeds arround the Sun. If you can alter how gravity interacts with stuff you can totally move in space - and since in space there's almost no friction, to fly in one direction at constant speed takes very little force- it would be different than moving inside Earth, but why shouldn't it be different?.

                        But really, only Technocrats should care about such science.

                        All that you should care about it's that giving others the power to interact with effects isn't high level magick for nothing. That if the rules provide examples of what you're trying to accomplish as a Wonder (plasma canon - Wonder since forever), they're assuming that's the way things work. That giving others superpowers it's assumed to be Life 5 and not Life 3 and "low it's intensity when you're tired of floating" in spite of what outliers of a recent rule may show.
                        I know how gravity works. The point was that in space, there wouldn't be enough gravity pull on place to make someone fly at running speed without creating energy.

                        You are forgetting the point here. Which is even if Life 5 was needed to make someone able to fly, there is still not a source to provide all the power it is needed to move such a heavy object so fast.
                        Or do you need Prime as well? We both know it doesn't, even that chi flight crap states that it's not necessary normally. And even if you argue that it is, the ammount of Quintessence to move 2 tons of weight (Forces 3) would be ridiculously high.

                        The point is not just the locking anymore, is where does the energy of the effect come from. Which was the major issue pointed by you in my initial idea.



                        Also, wonders are permanent and doesn't have to be recast and cannot be dispelled.
                        My gun looks more like an instrument than a wonder.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Muad'Dib there is no Quintessence cost for a flying spell (except for that hdydt chi craziness, let's not even consider that).
                          From the M:tA perspective, every Forces Pattern is fueled by it's own amount of Quintessence. From the Revised Corebook : "Natural forces manifest through energetic Patterns, constructs of Quintessence in motion. Every force has it's own unique properties, but they all share the common root of Prime swirling through a Pattern. (...) " ( page 164 ) "The Mage cannot create force from nothing without the use of Quintessence (...) " ( page 165 ) . There is no Quintessence cost in most flight Effects because they convert existing forces into forces that induce or aid in flight. I assume that this newly altered ( modified / created / changed ) Pattern is fueled ( maintained ) by the same Quintessence that fueled it before ; or that a new amount of Quintessence is linked to the flight Forces Pattern by the Spell to fuel it.

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                          • #28
                            That's a good explanation. One could create movement by changing gravity, which is a constant force. But the effect would also involve the increase/decrease of such force, otherwise the target could only move with the same acceleration of gravity. So, there is room for intensity control of the effects.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                              That's a good explanation. One could create movement by changing gravity, which is a constant force. But the effect would also involve the increase/decrease of such force, otherwise the target could only move with the same acceleration of gravity. So, there is room for intensity control of the effects.
                              I assume that the basic / simple flight Effects have some limitations in regard to the speed and agility with which a person can fly due to them.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                I assume that the basic / simple flight Effects have some limitations in regard to the speed and agility with which a person can fly due to them.
                                I disagree. The speed is proportional to the number of successes on the Arete roll, according to hdydt. I'd say the spell doesn't have to follow physics laws like conservation of energy. Otherwise the spell would be very, very limited by the speed, depending on the target weight, etc.

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