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How would an oWoD mage see Exalted Paradigm?

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  • How would an oWoD mage see Exalted Paradigm?

    This is not vs thread or something I have a legitimate question on how do you think mage would perceive reality within Exalted. I have a short list of a few questions.

    -For one, I think that there is no gauntlet in Exalted so everywhere counts as Shallowing and probably at least a level 1 mystic Node.
    -For another, any WoD gains automatic success at any task per spent WP, would it stay same in Exalted where reality is much more pliable?
    -Also, fundamental nature of spirits is assumed to be unchangeable in Exalt, while Mage can reshape any spirit with enough successes. Though it would probably be vulgar now.
    -The mage would also face less resistance on casting (sphere +2/+3?) and even less paradox due to weaker reality, most probably manifesting as tears into Wyld.
    -Do you think immunity to Shaping Attacks would outright block magic or just make it automatically Vulgar? On one hand it is considered fundamentally impossible to overcome, on another mages do exactly that in their home universe with every spell and against much sturdier reality.
    -For another, what would Avatar seem closer to for locals? A god? Elemental? Or (as I see) one of the Raksha?
    -Do you think exalt Essence is ruled by Spirit, Spirit+Prime or just plain Prime?
    -How do you think new rules with mental influence would interact with social charms (+3 diff, high probability of detecting)?
    -Do you think Entropy (breaking oaths) and Spirit (namebreaking) would cacel/hijack Oaths and Geasa of Fair Folk and Yozi? How about Unboundable merit?
    -Would mortals in Exalted be seen as humans, victors or spirits by WoD mages?
    -Is Aggreviated in Exalted and Aggreviated in WoD one and the same thing?
    -Would mages that use foci of Celestial Decrees be considered coincidental in Exalted (Wu Lung, Celestial Chorus)? Maybe they would be seen as forgeries?

    *before you mention, I'm also posting this on Exalted thread. I'm interested in both points of view.

  • #2
    So one thing to keep in mind - Exalted was originally conceived of as the World of Darkness in the mythical ages of past. That is, the actual first and second age as the Eastern supernatural groups reckon time. That in mind, mages wouldn't really need to deal with paradox as we understand it - even with modern paradigms, the world has enough beliefs to fit them in and not worry about the metaphysics. Your Virtual Adepts and ItXers would fit better into the heavy magitek feel of 2e than 3e, but even then, most people will see you working magick and assume that you found some first age relic. Now, the Realm may see such powers as a threat/heretical/anathema, especially if you are calling to gods that don't fit in their rolls of approves entities, but the paradigm doesn't hate those because heresies and foreign beliefs exist and allow people to draw upon magic.
    However, you may face Sidereal-style paradox. Your magic IS potentially warping the Loom of Fate, as Astrology and certain charms do (no points for guessing who the Sidereals were supposed to be the forerunners of. ). But, then again, a mage from another universe may also be Outside Fate and not subject to Paradox. Personally, I would as a GM keep the Sidereal paradox in, but give out only in certain cases where the Pattern spiders might notice.

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    • #3
      Yeah, but a lot of mages see nothing wrong with invoking different gods, especially if pliable with essence. I was thinking more on the line of the practices that would be considered obscene by locals like 'corrupting' gods, or eating prayers and sacrifices themselves, draining Manses dry or forging heavenly papers.
      On the other hand, paradigms truly contrary of the local reality should be vulgar - like trying to make matter without spirit. Or for example building a rocket to fly into space - sky IS a dome in Exalted.

      Originally posted by EndlessKng View Post
      However, you may face Sidereal-style paradox. Your magic IS potentially warping the Loom of Fate, as Astrology and certain charms do (no points for guessing who the Sidereals were supposed to be the forerunners of. ). But, then again, a mage from another universe may also be Outside Fate and not subject to Paradox. Personally, I would as a GM keep the Sidereal paradox in, but give out only in certain cases where the Pattern spiders might notice.
      nice. somewhat close to what I think, though I was thinking both on Wyld and LoF paradoxes. As in the weave of reality being comparatively so thin that instead of rebounding on mage it may tear, letting Fae and Wyld taint in. Of course mages just turn into their avatar forms in Wyld, so they wouldn't really consider it much a drawback. Though, they have bad habits of eating Fair Folk for Q, not to mention being easily controllable through Heart Virtues makes Fae very vulnerable.

      As for Loom of Fate, I read in 3rd edition that beings outside of creation start to generate fate fairly quickly (sans Mad God Mien or being a Marauder). But being to affect Fate yes, mages would drive pattern spiders frothing mad XD. Not to mention mage Entropy (not to mention Qlippotic Entropy) would agitate underworld something fierce. So paradox could be resolved as attacks by Pattern Spiders or Specters depending on spells.

      On the other hand, what do you think on being able to get guaranteed success on ANY task by spending WP? Would it be same in Creation?

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      • #4
        Willpower is more of a meta thing, so I think it would just work how it does in whichever system you're using.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          Willpower is more of a meta thing, so I think it would just work how it does in whichever system you're using.
          that's sorta the point of whole question. if mage is in Creation and spends 1 WP to slap a god that has defense 20 he will still hit, even if usually he would be hard pressed to hit anything with his 2 dice pool. I'mm not very familiar with Exalted mechanics, so I'm trying to figure it out.

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          • #6
            Well, in exalted the wp would add one success. Which would get you one success closer to the "difficulty" set by their defense, which in exalted is how many successes you need to roll rather than the number the dice have to show.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Elfive View Post
              Well, in exalted the wp would add one success. Which would get you one success closer to the "difficulty" set by their defense, which in exalted is how many successes you need to roll rather than the number the dice have to show.
              Oh, so that's how it is! Thanks.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Warpwind
                For one, I think that there is no gauntlet in Exalted so everywhere counts as Shallowing and probably at least a level 1 mystic Node.
                Shallowing yes, spirit and matter it's one. For Nodes the Exalted concept of Manse/Demesne it's way too close to discard, but since Essence users can breathe Essence everywhere in Creation you can say that mages would be able to do the same. I would treat it as absorbing from a lvl 1 Node, but with nigh-infinite potential.

                -For another, any WoD gains automatic success at any task per spent WP, would it stay same in Exalted where reality is much more pliable?
                Willpower stays the same.

                -Also, fundamental nature of spirits is assumed to be unchangeable in Exalt, while Mage can reshape any spirit with enough successes. Though it would probably be vulgar now.
                Spirits say they're unchangeable, but leave them in the Wyld long enough and they will change...being punched by a potent enough Sideral may make them change too.

                Really, changing the fundamental nature of spirits it's just high level mojo rather than impossible, but I guess most humans don't know that. It may be Vulgar, yes

                But I probably would just make it to be regarded as unholy and Anatema-ish as long as the mage takes the.... precaution?... of expending Quintessence to display an aura. In WoD expending more than 5 dots of Quintessence on a round makes any spell Vulgar because the energy starts to manifest as sparks, rays, auras, and other evident manners, but in the world of Exalted that may be taken as you being an Anathema...and then pretty much anything you can do will explain itself . Dark Ages mages were able to make these displays on purpose by expending a single dot of Quintessence on it, so I wouldn't ask more.

                -The mage would also face less resistance on casting (sphere +2/+3?) and even less paradox due to weaker reality, most probably manifesting as tears into Wyld.
                Maybe, if nearly everything it's Coincident that's already a huge boost.

                But I wouldn't give bonuses without considering the resonance of the essence permeating the world. For instance, Forces effects that affect fire could get more potent while you get near the Pole of Fire. Appealing to the "correct" gods could also grant a bonus

                -Do you think immunity to Shaping Attacks would outright block magic or just make it automatically Vulgar? On one hand it is considered fundamentally impossible to overcome, on another mages do exactly that in their home universe with every spell and against much sturdier reality.
                I would go for outright block. You say that it's a whole different level of reality and mages have it much tougher at home, but I say that if the frigging creators of reality can't shape an Exalt against his will, a Mage can't either.

                But there may be ways to circumvent or even overpower these defenses. Lunar tatoos are infallible until they aren't, like when they chose to become Akuma or bear infernal tatoos. Perhaps these no-sell defenses work as a Hunter's no-sell powers, and can be overcome by getting hundreds of successes and beating divine powers or stuff like that. It shouldn't be trivial, though.

                -For another, what would Avatar seem closer to for locals? A god? Elemental? Or (as I see) one of the Raksha?
                While Mage's powers are very Raksha, I think Avatars by their lore share more in common with gods (the god-shard) or even possesing demons. Perhaps it depends on the Essence of the Avatar. Dynamic could be Raksha, Pattern could be gods or elementals, Primordial would be demons or related to the Underworld, and Seeking any of them (as a wildcard that seeks it's place)

                -Do you think exalt Essence is ruled by Spirit, Spirit+Prime or just plain Prime?
                Plain Prime. But colored by strong ressonances

                -How do you think new rules with mental influence would interact with social charms (+3 diff, high probability of detecting)?
                I would ignore the Mage rules. Exalted has many rules for influence both mundane and magical, and it would be easier to adapt Mind to those that to adapt half Exalted to Mind.

                On the other hand, if you ignore the Social rules of Exalted and port the Charms back to Mage you would need to work out how they work and if they can be resisted.

                -Do you think Entropy (breaking oaths) and Spirit (namebreaking) would cacel/hijack Oaths and Geasa of Fair Folk and Yozi? How about Unboundable merit?
                These form a too important part of Exalted to break just 'cause it isn't very important for Mage.

                I would make it possible for a combination of Spirit and Entropy to break the chains of fate that make these Geas to be, but it wouldn't be trivial AND breaking a random Solar Geas wouldn't be the same as breaking the Geas of the Yozis

                -Would mortals in Exalted be seen as humans, victors or spirits by WoD mages?
                Humans. They're fundamentally human in everything but their incapability to Awake, so maybe Soulless Humans. Many mortals can use thaumaturgy and other forms of magic, but this is just what mages call Hedge Magic. Normal humans can do that

                -Is Aggreviated in Exalted and Aggreviated in WoD one and the same thing?
                I don't think so.

                In WoD most damages that come from a mystical source are Aggravated, like the claws and fangs of many monsters. In Exalted everyone and it's aunt are supernatural monsters, yet they don't cause Aggravated. Lunar Exalted are supposed to be "Werewolves", and their claws don't cause Agg. In Exalted only powerful magics can cause Agg. I would allow Prime 5 existential disruption to cause Exalted Agg, but not Prime 2 enchantments

                -Would mages that use foci of Celestial Decrees be considered coincidental in Exalted (Wu Lung, Celestial Chorus)? Maybe they would be seen as forgeries?
                Not the same Celestial Decrees. They would be seen as false, yes, but they could adapt to the world rather quickly
                Last edited by Aleph; 04-11-2019, 12:54 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                  Shallowing yes, spirit and matter it's one. For Nodes the Exalted concept of Manse/Demesne it's way too close to discard, but since Essence users can breathe Essence everywhere in Creation you can say that mages would be able to do the same. I would treat it as absorbing from a lvl 1 Node, but with nigh-infinite potential.
                  thought so.


                  But I probably would just make it to be regarded as unholy and Anatema-ish as long as the mage takes the.... precaution?... of expending Quintessence to display an aura. In WoD expending more than 5 dots of Quintessence on a round makes any spell Vulgar because the energy starts to manifest as sparks, rays, auras, and other evident manners, but in the world of Exalted that may be taken as you being an Anathema...and then pretty much anything you can do will explain itself . Dark Ages mages were able to make these displays on purpose by expending a single dot of Quintessence on it, so I wouldn't ask more.
                  That's a great idea! So the effects that are Overwhelmingly supernatural can be more coincidental. Brilliant.


                  Maybe, if nearly everything it's Coincident that's already a huge boost.

                  But I wouldn't give bonuses without considering the resonance of the essence permeating the world. For instance, Forces effects that affect fire could get more potent while you get near the Pole of Fire. Appealing to the "correct" gods could also grant a bonus
                  that seems reasonable. So Shallowing/Node one rules colored with proximity to one of the Titanic nodes? sure.

                  I would go for outright block. You say that it's a whole different level of reality and mages have it much tougher at home, but I say that if the frigging creators of reality can't shape an Exalt against his will, a Mage can't either.
                  Yeah, but reality creation isn't really that special in Mage... but I would say let's leave that part.

                  But there may be ways to circumvent or even overpower these defenses. Lunar tatoos are infallible until they aren't, like when they chose to become Akuma or bear infernal tatoos. Perhaps these no-sell defenses work as a Hunter's no-sell powers, and can be overcome by getting hundreds of successes and beating divine powers or stuff like that. It shouldn't be trivial, though.
                  This is from Awakening, but Entropy 4 may enchant a weapon to become a Bane of some specific thing. E.I act as it's weakness, whatever that may be.

                  While Mage's powers are very Raksha, I think Avatars by their lore share more in common with gods (the god-shard) or even possesing demons. Perhaps it depends on the Essence of the Avatar. Dynamic could be Raksha, Pattern could be gods or elementals, Primordial would be demons or related to the Underworld, and Seeking any of them (as a wildcard that seeks it's place)
                  yeah. that's what I ended on too in the end.

                  I would ignore the Mage rules. Exalted has many rules for influence both mundane and magical, and it would be easier to adapt Mind to those that to adapt half Exalted to Mind.

                  On the other hand, if you ignore the Social rules of Exalted and port the Charms back to Mage you would need to work out how they work and if they can be resisted.
                  I'll look into that then.

                  These form a too important part of Exalted to break just 'cause it isn't very important for Mage.
                  Don't worry, it's very important for mages too. Some are just filthy cheaters XD.

                  I would make it possible for a combination of Spirit and Entropy to break the chains of fate that make these Geas to be, but it wouldn't be trivial AND breaking a random Solar Geas wouldn't be the same as breaking the Geas of the Yozis
                  Solar Geas? Exaltation is a Geas?

                  Though another thread we came to a point where
                  Fae/magical oath -> Entropy
                  Fae Oath Child -> Entopy + Prime
                  Yozi second circle -> Entropy + Spirit

                  The example I am coming from in Mage is the practice of renaming demon lords in medieval mage, which is Very hard, vulgar and requires sacrifice of a WP dot (bit of a soul). Of course affecting chains of Yozi themselves would be a one-of-a-kind titanic undertaking (equivalent of Sorcerous Workings). The only comparable thing I remember from canon is an Eclypse ritual in Jarusalem to break through the Heavenly Spheres into the Void/Nothing beyond.

                  Humans. They're fundamentally human in everything but their incapability to Awake, so maybe Soulless Humans. Many mortals can use thaumaturgy and other forms of magic, but this is just what mages call Hedge Magic. Normal humans can do that
                  Yeah. I was thinking along those lines.
                  The problem - are creatures like that even 'Human' for mystical mages? Form of flesh isn't worth much when we are talking about mages.

                  In WoD most damages that come from a mystical source are Aggravated, like the claws and fangs of many monsters. In Exalted everyone and it's aunt are supernatural monsters, yet they don't cause Aggravated. Lunar Exalted are supposed to be "Werewolves", and their claws don't cause Agg. In Exalted only powerful magics can cause Agg. I would allow Prime 5 existential disruption to cause Exalted Agg, but not Prime 2 enchantments
                  The point being AGG damage comes only from the very potent magical creatures, like game lines, demons, etc. Besides developers needed a way to make game more lethal for monstrous characters, otherwise there wouldn't be enough grimdark. Anything besides werewolves dies to Agg very quickly in WoD.

                  Not the same Celestial Decrees. They would be seen as false, yes, but they could adapt to the world rather quickly
                  Yeah, there is a guy (a marauder and a professional lawyer) who's every spell takes a form of a petition to the celestial bureaucracy. Imagine him showing up EVERY DAMN TIME he want to cast a spell, with paperwork, and speeches. Again. again, and again. Due to being a marauder petty things like time, distance and knowledge of legalese aren't an issue with him XD.
                  Last edited by Warpwind; 04-11-2019, 02:31 PM.

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                  • #10
                    I think they were referring to the Eclipse Caste solar's inherent ability to sanctify oaths.

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                    • #11
                      Yep, exactly that.

                      Originally posted by Warpwind
                      Though another thread we came to a point where
                      Fae/magical oath -> Entropy
                      Fae Oath Child -> Entopy + Prime
                      Yozi second circle -> Entropy + Spirit

                      The example I am coming from in Mage is the practice of renaming demon lords in medieval mage, which is Very hard, vulgar and requires sacrifice of a WP dot (bit of a soul). Of course affecting chains of Yozi themselves would be a one-of-a-kind titanic undertaking (equivalent of Sorcerous Workings). The only comparable thing I remember from canon is an Eclypse ritual in Jarusalem to break through the Heavenly Spheres into the Void/Nothing beyond.
                      It makes sense. Entropy it's the main component for sure, most ordinary breakings of a Geas in Exalted result on a series of automatic Botches fated to hapen in the worst moment possible. That alone puts most magical Geas under the purview of Entropy. But Spirit could be useful too because the curses of magical Geas in Exalted are often enforced by potent spiritual beings like gods or Yozi

                      In the case of oaths taken by Faes (not just the child ones), the oath it's part of the narrative that composes their being. Prime makes sense there. I would say that breaking these Oaths can't be done w/o also altering the Fae somehow. At least in the case of Adjurations it's clear that removing the Oath should remove also the mutation that the Oath gives

                      Yeah. I was thinking about those lines. The problem - are creatures like that even 'Human' for mystical mages?
                      Never seen them viewed otherwise, but I guess it depends on the Belief of the mage.

                      A Hermetic may not treat them as 'human', since the human it's suposed to be able to do magick. Magick it's human's birthright as sons of God. Others won't have problem treating them as human, I think. They're just not very gifted, don't have magical blood, don't have a guardian angel, or whatever other explanation the mage uses for human potential to Awaken. The Avatar it's a misterious thing in Mage, a lot of mages don't know that every human has the potential to Awaken.

                      The point being AGG damage comes only from the very potent magical creatures, like game lines, demons, etc. Besides developers needed a way to make game more lethal for monstrous characters, otherwise there wouldn't be enough grimdark. Anything besides werewolves dies to Agg very quickly in WoD.
                      Yep, but since Exalted isn't based on Urban Fantasy but Epic Fantasy what constitutes a potent magical source of damage changes aesthetically. We're talking about a world where it wouldn't be too out there for a human merchant to have a bound demons as bodiguards

                      Most Exalted demons don't have attacks that cause Agg, for instance. Even the most powerful attacks of demon princes tend to cause ludicrous amounts of Lethal rather than Agg. Exalted "werewolves" certainly don't cause Agg I don't think a vampire's fangs would cause aggravated if he was written for a world like Exalted.

                      Yeah, there is a guy (a marauder and a professional lawyer) who's every spell takes a form of a petition to the celestial bureaucracy. Imagine him showing up EVERY DAMN TIME he want to cast a spell, with paperwork, and speeches. Again. again, and again. Due to being a marauder petty things like time, distance and knowledge of legalese aren't an issue with him XD.
                      XDXD, that would be a funny way to annoy the celestial bureaucracy.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 04-11-2019, 02:58 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                        Yep, exactly that.
                        that's some great points to think on, thanks!

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                        • #13
                          for those that are interested, I came about this interesting discussion that starts with D&D vs Exalted and quickly dips into basically Vulgar vs Coincidental for shaping effects argument.

                          https://forums.spacebattles.com/thre....268966/page-2

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                          • #14
                            Haven’t had the time to read it yet but Holden did this the other way around and brought the Exalted to WoD. Perhaps it would be worth to look at.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                              Haven’t had the time to read it yet but Holden did this the other way around and brought the Exalted to WoD. Perhaps it would be worth to look at.

                              I already did! but thanks for the tip.

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