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  • Dodge bullets and lightning

    So, do you guys allow a roll to try to dodge gunfire attacks? And lightning falling from the sky or even going out of the mage's hand? What are your aproaches for such circunstances?

  • #2
    M20 explicitly allows dodge rolls against both. Though keep in mind that M20 has the difficulty of dodging vary, and bullets causes the difficulty to increase. Magical attacks need to be noticed to be dodged (not just the mage casting them). If you see a wizard's want arcing with electricity, or here the crackle and rumbling of thunder forming above your head, you can probably get the hint and try to get out of the way. If the nature of the effect is too subtle for normal senses like that, you have to make an Awareness check first to see if you notice it before you can dodge it.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      M20 explicitly allows dodge rolls against both. Though keep in mind that M20 has the difficulty of dodging vary, and bullets causes the difficulty to increase. Magical attacks need to be noticed to be dodged (not just the mage casting them). If you see a wizard's want arcing with electricity, or here the crackle and rumbling of thunder forming above your head, you can probably get the hint and try to get out of the way. If the nature of the effect is too subtle for normal senses like that, you have to make an Awareness check first to see if you notice it before you can dodge it.

      I think it makes little sense to be able to dodge a bullet and let alone a lightning from the sky (is the character faster than light!?). In any case I just want to hear possibly different aproaches.

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      • #4
        If a trained mage sees attack coming he can dodge it. you do not need to be bullet or lightning timer, just anticipate the attack direction. So, dodging attacks coming from afar is actually harder then from close to medium range where you can see where gun/hand is pointing. Lightning falling from sky is harder, but if guy has premonitions, forces, danger sense or something like that then it should be feasable once or twice. For a note, skilled swordsmen can actually deflect arrows.

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        • #5
          Dodging bullets in this context is "moving in a fashion that hopes to throw off the shooter's aim and avoid getting fatally hit," than, "I'm Neo and I can just avoid bullets with ease while standing there." Dodging at diff 9 while being shot at at diff 6 is not going to end with you successfully avoiding harm most of the time.

          Dodging spells involves recognizing what's going on before it happens, even if only by a second, and trying to ensure your enemy is aiming for where you were, rather than where you're going to be. Or doing something like running next to a better conductor than you so the lightning decides to follow the path of least resistance and you hopefully only get shocked a little.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            Dodging bullets in this context is "moving in a fashion that hopes to throw off the shooter's aim and avoid getting fatally hit," than, "I'm Neo and I can just avoid bullets with ease while standing there." Dodging at diff 9 while being shot at at diff 6 is not going to end with you successfully avoiding harm most of the time.
            This. Dodge in the context of a firefight has always equated to "seek cover". "Dodging bullets" in the sense of what you see in The Matrix or something similar requires Time magic or some other supernatural power.

            And lightning doesn't move at the speed of light. The speed of a lightning stroke depends on conditions and conductivity, with the return stroke typically being faster than the first "leader" stroke. Observed speeds range from around 50 KM per second to 4000 KM per second (and probably more under controlled conditions), compared to the 299792.458 KM per second of light. The leader stroke actually progresses in 30 meter increments with a 50 microsecond pause between each step. All of which looks really fascinating in extreme slow motion.


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #7
              Attacks that directly affect the target pattern cannot be dodged. Directly tearing someone's flesh with Life 3 is an Arete roll that turns into successes x2 damage. The same could be made with other spheres. In your example, it deppends. I'd say that createing lightning in your hands and literally throwing them would require an attack roll. While just creating an electric potential diference between your hand and the target would be a direct damage and just the Arete roll being converted into damage.

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              • #8
                I understand that dodging firearms is considered to try to find cover and/or dodge the aim, I just think it should be a really high difficult to do so and in the case of a Lightning coming from the sky I see no sense at all that anybody could dodge it using mundane means. Also, even if we're talking about a lightning coming out of a mage's fingers it should have a higher difficult to dodge than a normal strike like a sword attack and a punch/kick und so weiter...

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                • #9
                  ... the book makes it high difficulty? What more do you want? The rules for dodging in combat say to increase the difficulty based on the type of attack and the situation.

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                  • #10
                    Where does it state so?

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                    • #11
                      Ofc it's an obvious thing, but I don't recall where does it states that the nature of your magical attack affect directly the dificult to dodge etc, but I guess ofc the ST can declare so.

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                      • #12
                        I Don't find dodging fire arms in combat that much of an issue. its not "Real" but.. neither is the mechanics of gunfire. I mean statistically in situation you'd find someone in that we'd pull out the dice for I think the FBI found that only 30 percent of bullets hit? From the level of chaos and confusion in combat its a very different than shooting at the range.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                          Where does it state so?
                          Mage 20, page 411:

                          "To have your character bob and weave herself out of harm’s
                          way, make a successful Dexterity + Athletics roll. The difficulty
                          depends upon the nature of the attack and the distance that the
                          dodging character wants to cover during that dodge. Dodging a
                          hand-to-hand strike is easy (difficulty 5), but dodging firearms
                          at close range is far more challenging (difficulty 9 or 10)."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                            Mage 20, page 411:

                            "To have your character bob and weave herself out of harm’s
                            way, make a successful Dexterity + Athletics roll. The difficulty
                            depends upon the nature of the attack and the distance that the
                            dodging character wants to cover during that dodge. Dodging a
                            hand-to-hand strike is easy (difficulty 5), but dodging firearms
                            at close range is far more challenging (difficulty 9 or 10)."

                            Except realistically it should be the other way around....

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              Except realistically it should be the other way around....
                              I don't agree in a general manner, though I'll say it highly depends on the gun in question. It's easier to dodge a punch than to evade the bullet of a pistol/revolver or SMG or bullpup-style firearm up close. Naturally, full-size rifles (especially those that aren't automatic) would be horrible in close combat, and way easier to dodge.

                              Naturally the same theoretically goes for melee weapons - their size and intended distance of use matters for the difficulty of dodging them. Some melee weapons are not made to be really effective very up close and personal once you manage to get past ther ideal range. Others, like a knife, get worse the closer you get.
                              Last edited by Ambrosia; 05-07-2019, 01:18 AM.


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