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  • Herr Meister
    started a topic Dodge bullets and lightning

    Dodge bullets and lightning

    So, do you guys allow a roll to try to dodge gunfire attacks? And lightning falling from the sky or even going out of the mage's hand? What are your aproaches for such circunstances?

  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    You are basically harassing me through different threads and you say you don't have a personal problem with me, really?
    I'm responding to what is posted for new topics and responses. I'm commenting on quite a few, not just yours but you have started a few recently, so there's more of the ones you've started that are active.
    I've tried to stay pretty polite in spite of you insulting me with "I'm not sure if they teach logic in your country, so that you can learn to concatenate ideas well" and "I'm amazed at how some people find it so difficult to think outside the box, but rather preffer to agree with anything that is written in the official books" often condescending, and even putting words in my mouth, or text as the case may be.

    If there's any particular parts of these conversations that you think are actual harassment rather than disagreeing with you, please bring it to my attention so I can address it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    I see you have a personal problem with me, but ok lol. I ask to see different opinions and debate, that's what a forum is for. Debating! I can change my mind, in fact I often do as when you made me look at average success with difficulty to change my mind about the dice penalty imposed to soak etc...you're being very unfair with me dude.


    I don't have an issue with you. I've just given up on the "Realism vs gameability" situation. I mean if I wanted a more realistic game I'd be playing it. I don't think dodge vs firearms is the least of issues I'd need to bring it into anything resembling realism.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    I don't have a personal problem with you atall. I have a problem with some of the ways you've engaged in the discussion; accusing me of blindly defending the rules when I disagree with you and, as above, disagreeing with someone saying they allow dodging bullets and Lightning when that's exactly what you asked.
    So I said it was disingenuous; not a sincere discussion, because it seems like there is something else going behind the reasons of your questioning.

    You seem to have a lot of issues with the rules as presented in core books, which is ok, lots of us have issues with aspects of the White Wolf material. Even new players to the game seem to house rule aspects pretty quickly; and the house rules in the current main game I'm playing in would take a long time to adjust to compared to a core game, we've been constantly tweaking them over multiple games for 20 years.

    But when you ask a question in a forum, you'll get people responding as either - "here's the rules", or "here's how we do it and why" compared to the core rules (Normally)

    So if you want a useful answer to look at a whole picture, like your lightning wielding battle mage that doesn't feel like they're doing enough in combat compared to the combat characters - Maybe post the whole thing rather than piecemeal?

    People can then have a look at the whole situation and you might get better answers, although we're still not looking from the perspective of your house rules because we don't know them all.

    You are basically harassing me through different threads and you say you don't have a personal problem with me, really?

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    I see you have a personal problem with me, but ok lol. I ask to see different opinions and debate, that's what a forum is for. Debating! I can change my mind, in fact I often do as when you made me look at average success with difficulty to change my mind about the dice penalty imposed to soak etc...you're being very unfair with me dude.
    I don't have a personal problem with you atall. I have a problem with some of the ways you've engaged in the discussion; accusing me of blindly defending the rules when I disagree with you and, as above, disagreeing with someone saying they allow dodging bullets and Lightning when that's exactly what you asked.
    So I said it was disingenuous; not a sincere discussion, because it seems like there is something else going behind the reasons of your questioning.

    You seem to have a lot of issues with the rules as presented in core books, which is ok, lots of us have issues with aspects of the White Wolf material. Even new players to the game seem to house rule aspects pretty quickly; and the house rules in the current main game I'm playing in would take a long time to adjust to compared to a core game, we've been constantly tweaking them over multiple games for 20 years.

    But when you ask a question in a forum, you'll get people responding as either - "here's the rules", or "here's how we do it and why" compared to the core rules (Normally)

    So if you want a useful answer to look at a whole picture, like your lightning wielding battle mage that doesn't feel like they're doing enough in combat compared to the combat characters - Maybe post the whole thing rather than piecemeal?

    People can then have a look at the whole situation and you might get better answers, although we're still not looking from the perspective of your house rules because we don't know them all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    I see you have a personal problem with me, but ok lol. I ask to see different opinions and debate, that's what a forum is for. Debating! I can change my mind, in fact I often do as when you made me look at average success with difficulty to change my mind about the dice penalty imposed to soak etc...you're being very unfair with me dude.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    So, do you guys allow a roll to try to dodge gunfire attacks? And lightning falling from the sky or even going out of the mage's hand? What are your aproaches for such circunstances?
    What is your the overaching issue you're looking at; discussing the Lightning in multiple ways like this.

    If, as a ST you want someone to be unable to dodge, take more damage from lightning etc. Do it. That's what you get to do as a ST.

    If feels disingenuous to ask for general opinions when you seem to be fishing just for people that agree with you. If you want that, great, phrase the question differently and those of us that disagree won't chime in.

    do you guys allow a roll to try to dodge gunfire attacks? And lightning ... I think it makes little sense to be able to dodge a bullet and let alone a lightning from the sky
    Why are you asking for opinions if you're not listening to them and already have your mind set?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ambrosia
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Then how do you see soak negating a punch?
    Soak is relatively simple; Soaking an attack simply means what it means - the damage roll (force of the attack) simply wasn't strong enough to really cause damage to the hit spot (soak roll).

    Where the system in general kind of falls apart though is when you get a godlike to-hit roll result, get all excited about the massive damage you're about to cause....and then roll so very unlucky as to get no success on the massive damage roll. A roll that the target woudln't even be able to soak because lethal vs. mortals, for example.
    And: To a target that has been, RP wise, not seen you coming at all either because you snuck up on them.

    Those moments can be oh so very, *very* frustrating because there really is no good logical explanation for failing. You managed to sneak up masterfully! That to-hit was so great, omg, it's the most perfectly executed strike ever!
    And then...no damage at all. Nada. For...some reason. It can be one of the most frustrating moments of the combat system.

    That's why I'm a fan of applying a certain percentage of the (post-dodge) to-hit roll result as static, unrolled damage to be soaked (if soak is possible) or taken.
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 05-08-2019, 01:57 AM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
    Yes, but personally I'd see a full dice-negating dodge in melee not strictly as "You were not touched at all", but also as "You moved in such a way that the the melee attack was forced ineffective, period."
    Which is not the same as actively parrying - consider the difference between moving in a way so a punch happens to harmlessy brush along your side or forcing the wide swing to connect through the side of the enemy's arm in a harmless manner instead of their fist ('dodge'ing to very close proximity), vs. using your limbs or an object to stop/block/deflect it (parry).
    Then how do you see soak negating a punch?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ambrosia
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Its very hard to swing at a person and completely miss. Even if i hit you from the completely wrong angle I've hit you.
    Yes, but personally I'd see a full dice-negating dodge in melee not strictly as "You were not touched at all", but also as "You moved in such a way that the the melee attack was forced ineffective, period."
    Which is not the same as actively parrying - consider the difference between moving in a way so a punch happens to harmlessy brush along your side or forcing the wide swing to connect through the side of the enemy's arm in a harmless manner instead of their fist ('dodge'ing to very close proximity), vs. using your limbs or an object to stop/block/deflect it (parry).
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 05-07-2019, 02:13 AM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
    I don't agree generally, though I'll say it highly depends on the gun in question. It's easier to dodge a punch than to evade the bullet of a pistol/revolver or SMG or bullpup-style firearm up close. Naturally, full-size rifles (especially those that aren't automatic) would be horrible in close combat, and way easier to dodge.
    Its very hard to swing at a person and completely miss. Even if i hit you from the completely wrong angle I've hit you. A lot of a gun's killing capacity is a matter of being in the right point in the right time to hit someone and being able to throw enough bullets at the situation to make that occur. I"m pretty sure i na brawl more than 1/3 of swings connect.

    There's a lot more complications with trying to "accurately" simulate fire arms than just at range shooting would tell you..(there's also the whole "if your bullet and lightning bolt should HIT SOMETHING even if it misses the target which is completely ignored by the system).. that being the case I'm more than willing to let athletics dodge for gameability's sake.. and would probably not give bullets the "innate advantage" but might increase difficulty of dodging for number of bullets fired rather than just assuming.

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  • Ambrosia
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Except realistically it should be the other way around....
    I don't agree in a general manner, though I'll say it highly depends on the gun in question. It's easier to dodge a punch than to evade the bullet of a pistol/revolver or SMG or bullpup-style firearm up close. Naturally, full-size rifles (especially those that aren't automatic) would be horrible in close combat, and way easier to dodge.

    Naturally the same theoretically goes for melee weapons - their size and intended distance of use matters for the difficulty of dodging them. Some melee weapons are not made to be really effective very up close and personal once you manage to get past ther ideal range. Others, like a knife, get worse the closer you get.
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 05-07-2019, 01:18 AM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    Mage 20, page 411:

    "To have your character bob and weave herself out of harm’s
    way, make a successful Dexterity + Athletics roll. The difficulty
    depends upon the nature of the attack and the distance that the
    dodging character wants to cover during that dodge. Dodging a
    hand-to-hand strike is easy (difficulty 5), but dodging firearms
    at close range is far more challenging (difficulty 9 or 10)."

    Except realistically it should be the other way around....

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    Where does it state so?
    Mage 20, page 411:

    "To have your character bob and weave herself out of harm’s
    way, make a successful Dexterity + Athletics roll. The difficulty
    depends upon the nature of the attack and the distance that the
    dodging character wants to cover during that dodge. Dodging a
    hand-to-hand strike is easy (difficulty 5), but dodging firearms
    at close range is far more challenging (difficulty 9 or 10)."

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    I Don't find dodging fire arms in combat that much of an issue. its not "Real" but.. neither is the mechanics of gunfire. I mean statistically in situation you'd find someone in that we'd pull out the dice for I think the FBI found that only 30 percent of bullets hit? From the level of chaos and confusion in combat its a very different than shooting at the range.

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