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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chad_Bitchin View Post
    It's not that it -has- to be related. It's more of a balancing act for yours truly.

    The problem is that I have a mixed group of 'supernaturals,' and most have extra action rules that behave consistently. If you're a Werewolf, you can spend half your Rage in a round. If you're a vampire, you can spend your Celerity in blood points every round.

    I'm trying to build something for my Mage that works like that. This 'spend Q for extra actions up to a limit of your Arete' keeps a check on the number of extra actions they can take, and it takes their 'fuel' stat into account in the same way it does for the others. So I can balance encounters against something other than a random dice roll.
    Fuel stats are not even remotely compatable. ITS VERY easy to keep getting rage in a scene. Somewhat harder to get Blood.. and impossible for Quint/Glamour.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Chad_Bitchin View Post

      Heh. This is the part where I reveal how fuckin ignorant I am on Mage shit.

      How -do- Mages get Quintessence back?
      Slightly harder than getting Gnosis. They can top up at a Node if they have access to it... and no one else is using it. They can also do stuff like perform ritual slaughter but this requires a particular level of prime and is NOWHERE near as efficient as Blood for Vampires.

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      • #18
        In HDYDT there is a way using Prime 2 to gain back ONE point per sacrifice, and even then it has to be a 'sacrifice' it can't be just some random shit.

        If you add Matter 2 you get ONE quintessence PER SUCCESS (which is quite a bit more) but still a pain sacrificing all your nice shit.

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        • #19
          Meditating by a Node is the easiest. Though i seem to remember that once you have Prime 4 you are able to leech Quint directly from your enviroment (either from the surrounding quint in the air or by destroying a pattern, like sucking all the quint from a chair and turning it to dust in the process)





          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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          • #20
            It may depend on edition but I think Prime 4 is pulling off of Junctures (Maybe using the wrong word for that) which is a fancy word for 'intense emotion in an area'. [Edit: Nah, it's just wellsprings actually. Wellsprings kinda suck then if you need prime 4 for them x.x]

            I imagine it's a wellspring that just kinda sucks and doesn't last as long.

            I think you need Prime 5 to just suck quintessence out of thin air.

            Looking at Prime 5 in M:20 "A Prime Master can draw Quintessence from anywhere,
            at any time, and channel it into other vessels as well."

            Prime 4 says: "The terrible power of draining Quintessence from objects
            or forces (though not yet from living things) can disintegrate
            those targets, consume them in Primal flames, or decay them
            almost instantly."

            The thing that fucking M:20 doesn't tell you till HDYDT though, is that 'draining quintessence' doesn't mean 'You're gaining the quintessence yourself'. It apparently means you just let it loose into reality/let it go freely.

            Or atleast I'm pretty sure HDYDT goes on some tangent about that.

            Actually 'absorbing' quintessence from people requires sacrifice (And I think earlier levels of prime).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jihelu View Post

              The thing that fucking M:20 doesn't tell you till HDYDT though, is that 'draining quintessence' doesn't mean 'You're gaining the quintessence yourself'. It apparently means you just let it loose into reality/let it go freely.

              Or atleast I'm pretty sure HDYDT goes on some tangent about that.

              Actually 'absorbing' quintessence from people requires sacrifice (And I think earlier levels of prime).
              The whole thing is frustratingly vague. About a lot. :P

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              • #22
                That's mostly by design XD



                If you are more worried about cross-splat compatibility, I'd say you can be a bit more lenient with the paradox side of things (like only gaining it once for a persistent effect despite benefiting several times over), but it wasn't my experience that this is a big deal. I've been through a couple games as a mage amongst werewolves: one was a support character in combat, at best doing things like untying hostages during the chaos or getaway driving, the other was a very combative front liner. I could reliably get 1 extra action per round, rarely called for more, and did quite well. The strengths and weaknesses of the splat really showed, in an interesting way.

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                • #23
                  Looked at broadly, Mages are already the most powerful playable splat--they don't need to also take on werewolves in fair combat. Nearly all vamps couldn't do that. Most Changelings couldn't take most Vampires. Wraiths are all invisible and intangible, have 10 health levels, and don't take wound penalties. The splats are different. The splats are supposed to be different.

                  Anyway I like the idea of alternate ways to get extra actions. My thoughts on how that might work:

                  -Life 2 alone could get you one extra action (or one extra action per turn if you get an extra success for duration). Why only one? Because Life 2 is still subject to the body's limits.

                  -Life 3 could give you more than one action per turn on a longer-term basis. However you'd get a fair amount of Permadox.

                  -Forces 2 alone can give you up to one extra movement per turn by changing the way inertia works in the body; however the roll is at +1 difficulty because of the precision involved.

                  -Prime 2 Forces 3 Can give you extra actions. This may cost Quintessence in addition to the roll depending on whether you use an edition that distinguishes between Raw and Free Quintessence. Also a +1 difficulty without Life 2 as per above.

                  -If you're going to use any of these to do very different actions in the same turn, you also need Mind 1.

                  -All of these require an Arete roll that takes up one turn [Edit: action, not turn]. There is no getting around that. The good thing is, the duration rules mean that one Arete roll can give extra actions for a whole scene's (or more) worth of turns.
                  Last edited by Faradn; 05-20-2019, 01:37 PM.

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                  • #24
                    I agree with Life 2 giving like, 1 extra success. I wouldn't say very much more though.

                    I'd let life 3 be coincidental depending on where and how you did it. In a place that accepts kung-fu nonsense as real? You can fucking, fist of furies someone. You still can't do certain things though without reality shitting on you. (Shooting 15 shotguns wouldn't work)

                    I think in HDYDT forces 2 basically doubles your speed per success, let me find the actual quote.

                    "Each success above the second one inflicts one lethal health
                    level, per turn, on the poor critter unless that critter has been
                    “enhanced” with Life 3 or 4 beforehand. (Life 3 if the mage is
                    enhancing himself, Life 4 if he’s enhancing someone else.)"

                    "Assume that every two successes with a Forces 2 “push”
                    doubles the speed of the object being pushed. A person running
                    at 10 Miles Per Hour hits 15 MPH with one success, 20 MPH
                    with two, 30 MPH with three, 40 MPH with four, and so on."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Faradn View Post
                      Looked at broadly, Mages are already the most powerful playable splat--they don't need to also take on werewolves in fair combat. Nearly all vamps couldn't do that. Most Changelings couldn't take most Vampires. Wraiths are all invisible and intangible, have 10 health levels, and don't take wound penalties. The splats are different. The splats are supposed to be different.

                      Anyway I like the idea of alternate ways to get extra actions. My thoughts on how that might work:

                      -Life 2 alone could get you one extra action (or one extra action per turn if you get an extra success for duration). Why only one? Because Life 2 is still subject to the body's limits.

                      -Life 3 could give you more than one action per turn on a longer-term basis. However you'd get a fair amount of Permadox.

                      -Forces 2 alone can give you up to one extra movement per turn by changing the way inertia works in the body; however the roll is at +1 difficulty because of the precision involved.

                      -Prime 2 Forces 3 Can give you extra actions. This may cost Quintessence in addition to the roll depending on whether you use an edition that distinguishes between Raw and Free Quintessence. Also a +1 difficulty without Life 2 as per above.

                      -If you're going to use any of these to do very different actions in the same turn, you also need Mind 1.

                      -All of these require an Arete roll that takes up one turn [Edit: action, not turn]. There is no getting around that. The good thing is, the duration rules mean that one Arete roll can give extra actions for a whole scene's (or more) worth of turns.
                      That is very nice. But I would only apply the penalty in Forces 2 if mlre than 3 extra actions were made.
                      Also, wouldn't require Quintessence nor Prime 2. This is for fueling great effects or creating energy/matter/life from nothing! Speeding yourself shouldn't require that ammount of energy.

                      Jihelu That would mean that every 2 suvcesses double your actions. 2 successes would mean 2 actions, 4 would mean 4 actions and 6 would mean 8 actions. I still prefer 1 extra action per success, though.

                      Synapse I'm curious about the rulling of reducing the dice penalties of multiple actions, could you elaborate?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Faradn View Post
                        Looked at broadly, Mages are already the most powerful playable splat--they don't need to also take on werewolves in fair combat. Nearly all vamps couldn't do that. Most Changelings couldn't take most Vampires..
                        Presuming an equal amount of buy in for interaction (i.e. a combat focused Vampire vs a combat focused Changeling) I'd bet on the CHangeling. Its alot easier for the Vamp to top up though.. so its easier for them to John wick through the day vs one or two major fights then having to peace out like a D&D wizard.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Faradn View Post
                          The splats are different. The splats are supposed to be different.
                          I feel ya.

                          Under different circumstances I'd let it be, but the problem I'm running into is specifically an 'action economy' thing. I can prep a fight where the opponent(s) have X amount of extra actions at their disposal, and I can base it on my little group's capabilities, up to the point where I get to the Mage guy. He gets a random amount that he has to roll for, and sometimes it comes up zilch. And maybe I'm doing this wrong, but if someone has a big attack coming their way and they can't set aside an action to defend against it, they're paste.

                          I think I should've run Mutants and Masterminds. :P

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chad_Bitchin View Post

                            I feel ya.

                            Under different circumstances I'd let it be, but the problem I'm running into is specifically an 'action economy' thing. I can prep a fight where the opponent(s) have X amount of extra actions at their disposal, and I can base it on my little group's capabilities, up to the point where I get to the Mage guy. He gets a random amount that he has to roll for, and sometimes it comes up zilch. And maybe I'm doing this wrong, but if someone has a big attack coming their way and they can't set aside an action to defend against it, they're paste.

                            I think I should've run Mutants and Masterminds. :P

                            Does the mage have some buffs on? He tries to keep always prepared? I don't see how he could have fixed extra actions, but he might have others buffs on that would help in combat. What spheres does he have? Also, he doens't need to spend anything to get extra actions, while the vampire and werewolf will run out of blood/rage.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post

                              Synapse I'm curious about the rulling of reducing the dice penalties of multiple actions, could you elaborate?
                              Nothing too special about it, one of the more common types of magic that is used in action is mitigating penalties and granting bonuses.

                              An effect that mitigates the penalties of splitting actions (without allowing you to do more of them) is no different, and since it works within constraints of mundane behaviour it is usually easy to pass off as coincidental.


                              For example: in my current game 2 mages are accomplished martial artists. In combat they move efficiently and precisely, and can rather easily tackle multiple fighters at once. They work a forces/life "economy of motion" that mitigates as much a they can.

                              The group's resident hodoun strategist is an avid gamer that honors his family's bellicose traditions in a brainy fashion. He can't facilitate flurries like the two Artists, but in proper communion his senses sharpen and his wits are refined. He can facilitate flurries with mind and sensory effects, effectively keeping multiple trains off thought without distracting from the world around him.

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                              • #30
                                Ah, I see Chad, you're running a mixed game. That's always hard. Remember though that not all vampires take Celerity, so it's not uncommon even in a pure Vampire game for some players to get more participation in combat than others. Three ways I can think of to address this. One, make combat faster in real time, using whatever methods you can to discourage players from spending too much time armchair quarterbacking their own characters. I mean this semi-literally: it's a bad sign when players feel comfortable enough in an action scene to lean back in their chair. Second, emphasize to your Mage player that the versatility of Sphere magic means that in combat they have a lot more options for participation than just physical attacks. Maybe occasionally throw an NPC with armor, so that one Life attack may be more effective than several physical attacks, for example. Finally, consider relying less on combat altogether.

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