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Non-traditional pagan Dreamspeaker question

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  • #31
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

    “Don’t be racist” is helpful.

    Play someone who reads tarot who isn’t Romani. Play someone who does any of the Roman augury; reading flocks of birds, weather patterns, entrails. Play someone who has devised their own numerology and relies on random number generators. Play someone who consults an obsidian mirror and the angels of the celestial bodies like Dee did.

    If you can’t see the difference between “the religious practices of marginalized, colonized cultures,” “a racist stereotype forced onto a closed culture,” and Hermeticism, I don’t think you’re arguing in good faith.
    Your examples are ALL HERMETIC PRACTICES so yeah you are saying "Play a hermetic because its the only thing you can possibly understand" Rather than attempt to expand someone's information about the Romani out of painful stereotypes. Telling someone what the culture actually is might actually be a counter point to stereotypes.

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    • #32
      They're all "Hermetic" practices because the Order actively appropriates stuff from other groups into their idealized unified theory of magic.

      Nothing she listed is exclusively or even primarily Hermetic.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Nothing she listed is exclusively or even primarily Hermetic.
        I'm prety sure that "Play someone who consults an obsidian mirror and the angels of the celestial bodies like Dee did" it's primarily Hermetic, in particular because Dee was know for studying Hermetic phylosophy in RL.

        But the rest it's prety univesal, yeah.
        Last edited by Aleph; 05-28-2019, 07:38 AM.

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        • #34
          So much unecessary imperativeness.

          "oh noes this stereotype is racist"

          His game. The guy is informed. No need to pester further.

          That also ignores that the archetype itself has worth in the game. Semiotics are a thing, you know? Being overly concerned about it to the point of hindering the game will help absolutely no one.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KingJohn View Post


            So I could use fortune-telling and new age spiritualism as a theme while also pursuing mediumship and other activities, which would give my character the same free reign a shaman would have?
            Yes. In a lot of cultures, the line between shaman (or seer/psychic/having "the sight"/etc.) and medium is blurry or even non-existent. Likewise with exorcism, psychotherapy, and other things. This is even more true with New Age beliefs, which tend to put a lot of focus on holistic approaches to the health of body, mind, and spirit, treating all of it as part of a greater whole.


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              I'm prety sure that "Play someone who consults an obsidian mirror and the angels of the celestial bodies like Dee did" it's primarily Hermetic, in particular because Dee was know for studying Hermetic phylosophy in RL
              While Dee was a student of Hermeticism, he was a numerologist first. The obsidian mirror is something he picked up from European explorers bringing back stuff from the Americas because he was vaguely intrigued by the stories about Mesoamerican cultures but never really got to study them... meaning it has nothing to do with Hermetic philosophy (if a bit to do with the way the Order of Hermes in the game is portrayed as being fairly appropriation heavy). Consulting celestial angels is something that's at least equally at home in the Chorus as it stems from Dee's parallel study of Kabbalism which the Hermetics had no exclusive or primary claim to.

              Originally posted by Synapse View Post
              No need to pester further.
              Given Remi's already stopped and has, at this point, spent as much to responding to people saying things like this as actually making the point... maybe you're not helping? If you don't want the discussion of racist characters to keep going... maybe don't use chastising her - unjustifiably at that - as an excuse to sneak in your own thoughts on the subject? It comes off more like you want to start excusing racism than actually caring about the discussion at hand and to set up telling people off if they debate your stance.

              That also ignores that the archetype itself has worth in the game.
              Not really. "Don't play a racist stereotype" is not the same as, "don't play a minority character that uses bigoted stereotypes about them to their advantage when they can." One is falling into hurtful lazy caricature, and the other is actually a chance to explore the dilemma minorities face when interacting with majority culture of compromise and safety vs. self-expression and risk.

              Being overly concerned about it to the point of hindering the game will help absolutely no one.
              Making up claims any game is being hindered by this thread helps no one.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                They're all "Hermetic" practices because the Order actively appropriates stuff from other groups into their idealized unified theory of magic.

                Nothing she listed is exclusively or even primarily Hermetic.

                I would argue the at the Hermetics are the primary inheritors of the Western occult traditions with other groups having a piece here or there.. but yes even if you did make a Virtual adept who talks to angels on his Obsidian Mirror app on the trinary the response to "how should I play a Romani Mage" shouldn't be "Play something WHITER you can't possibly understand"

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lian View Post


                  I would argue the at the Hermetics are the primary inheritors of the Western occult traditions with other groups having a piece here or there.. but yes even if you did make a Virtual adept who talks to angels on his Obsidian Mirror app on the trinary the response to "how should I play a Romani Mage" shouldn't be "Play something WHITER you can't possibly understand"
                  The argument isn’t “you’re too white to play a Romani character,” it’s “there’s basically no good reason for a white person to play a magical stereotype that white people pushed onto the Romani.” Like, that’s the entire discussion here; the “gypsy fortune-teller” is a racist trope, not an authentic spiritual belief structure.


                  Call me Remi. Female pronouns for me, please.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    I would argue the at the Hermetics are the primary inheritors of the Western occult traditions with other groups having a piece here or there..
                    And I'd love to see this argument in a serious fashion... since the Chorus, Verbena, Euthanatos, and Cult of Ecstasy would all significantly disagree with that (and that's just within the Traditions).

                    What argument is here for the Hermetics? That since they appropriated and popularized somethings they "own" those things over the people that have been doing them for thousands of years longer? The Hermetics didn't "inherit" anything. They borrowed, appropriated, stole, or whatever things from other groups.

                    ...the response to "how should I play a Romani Mage" shouldn't be "Play something WHITER you can't possibly understand"
                    To echo Remi, this isn't what happened. Post #8 (the one that started this) didn't ask about playing a Romani mage and then got the response here. You're conflating, "don't play a racist stereotype," with, "don't play marginalized groups because you're not part of it," and despite this being stated repeatedly now, you're doubling down on it.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                      The argument isn’t “you’re too white to play a Romani character,” it’s “there’s basically no good reason for a white person to play a magical stereotype that white people pushed onto the Romani.” Like, that’s the entire discussion here; the “gypsy fortune-teller” is a racist trope, not an authentic spiritual belief structure.


                      IT is and rather than help someone come up with something that actually someone might learn about a marginalized culture and not stick to painful stereotypes. Your response was "just use these standard Western occult practices"

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                      • #41
                        If your only point now is that you don't like how Remi said something we all apparently agree on, rather than any objection to the fundamental issue, can we just move on? It's not helpful to the OP for this to go around and around either.

                        Yes, it's better to help be more constructive, but that goes for everyone. You're not living up to the bar you are complaining Remi didn't hit, so what's the end goal here? To just derail this until it's locked? How does, "I'm going to be as big of an ass as I think I can get away with to you about all this," demonstrate, "it's better to try to include more charitable reading and positive information in your posts," instead of just make it look like... well... your goal isn't to suggest better ways of getting the point across?

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                        • #42
                          Not sure if this has been written earlier in the thread but if you want to play a norse mage i suggest taking a look at the Vaeldermen in DA:Mage.
                          Their entire fellowship (tradition) is built around the norse culture and sacrifice for power.
                          To be fair that fellowships magick is based around personal power and personal sacrifice, so i'm not sure if an external animistic paradigm is compatible. But at least you can look for cool rotes.





                          English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                          • #43
                            The Vaeldermen mostly got split up between the Verbena and Euthanatos, so it's a bit of a mix for using them for a Dreamspeaker despite the Norse themes. I think one of the reasons most of us skipped them is that Dead Magic II covers a lot of it (including having Vaeldermen rotes with modern versions), so it's a bit redundant.

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                            • #44
                              I might give 19th century spiritualism a try. It's the precursor to the New Age movement, in the sense that it was the populist and idea-blending of many mystical concepts from throughout the world. That spiritualists used seances and other forms of mediumship, as well as fortune telling, can be helpful. There's something, further, to be said about the role of "Ascended Masters" in the discussion of Shamanism or other spirit-work.


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