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Is there a way to stop Voormas?

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  • Is there a way to stop Voormas?

    If so, how?

  • #2
    I think the end time book for mage lists a way to do it using a ritual but I forget how, really I think getting him to commit suicide would kill im off.

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    • #3
      It somewhat depends on what you mean by stop him. Stopping him/killing him isn't really that hard. Stopping his legacy is a much, much harder thing, since he encoded his beliefs into his own death, twisting however kills him to follow in his footsteps (and whoever kills them to as well, etc.). This basically means you have to have a series of individuals all willing to die in a row, each progressively magically weaker, until you've got someone that Voormas's legacy can't manifest strongly in, and then figure out a way to get rid of it (it's not clear if suicide would work, but probably).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        It somewhat depends on what you mean by stop him. Stopping him/killing him isn't really that hard. Stopping his legacy is a much, much harder thing, since he encoded his beliefs into his own death, twisting however kills him to follow in his footsteps (and whoever kills them to as well, etc.). This basically means you have to have a series of individuals all willing to die in a row, each progressively magically weaker, until you've got someone that Voormas's legacy can't manifest strongly in, and then figure out a way to get rid of it (it's not clear if suicide would work, but probably).

        That's the first thought that came to mind when I read the commentary about "making him commit suicide". First his Jhor is based on fear of death, so I think it would make it hard for him to want to commit suicide and second he has this nasty ritual/effect of passing his goals to whoever kills him. And third, but not least, he is one of the most powerful creatures in the World of Darkness, so it's basically night impossible to find someone able to kill him in the first place...and then you have the "curse" passing on etc. Really tricky situation.

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        • #5
          I mean, if you can manage to murder this guy (Who, depending on the book, has like entropy 9) getting him to kill himself can't be too far from the realms of possibility.

          TBH if you know about the curse you might be able to use spirit/time/entropy/some other crazy magickal effect to counter it completely. Maybe use a lot of opposite resonance, a resonance of life or something, and a lot of other stuff.

          Or give it to some sleeper who's useless.

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          • #6
            Voormas isn't that hard to kill. Sure he has Entropy 7 in his most powerful write-up, but actually using high level Spheres in combat isn't exactly easy. Plus there's a magically blade out there that was made just for killing him. A cabal of PCs at the end of a decently long campaign really aren't going to go in the under-dogs when facing him in direct conflict (even if losing a few is probable). You just have to hope that whoever kills him rolls really well on that WP check.

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            • #7
              But then again some possibly interesting things come to mind. What if the one who kills him isn't a mage, but a cainite or a werewolf? Or what about imprisioning his soul in an object like an "Egg of Korshei" of sorts?
              Last edited by Herr Meister; 06-05-2019, 05:59 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                What if the one who kills him isn't a mage, but a cainite or a werewolf?
                This post concerns what you say, maybe it can help you:
                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ain-gift/page2

                They compare him with Zhyzak, maybe the most powerful canon werewolf. I haven't re-read this, but I remember the answer is Voormas will win anyway.

                And one guy says he is much more powerful than average Meths vampire.

                So maybe you need several Rank 6 Shapeshifters or Incarna, really powerful Meths or even Antes to kill him. A big crossover.

                ※Uh but in my opinion I will oppose this kind of big crossover, All splats have godlike guys and they should be ST Only for Plot Device... I won't assume who will win when mage the Unnamed versus Antes...never mind.

                But in theory all guys having stats are killable.

                EDIT: And it may be very difficult to compare different splats' powers because of their traits. Another reason I avoid crossover...
                Last edited by Rock113; 06-05-2019, 01:00 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                  But then again some possibly interesting things come to mind. What if the one who kills him isn't a mage, but a cainite or a werewolf? Or what about imprisioning his soul in an object like an "Egg of Korshei" of sorts?
                  If a non-mage kills him? They'd still end up cursed by his legacy and - recognizing that they can't perform his plans in that state - get themselves killed by attacking a powerful mage to pass it on to them.

                  Trying to imprison his soul in Mage would generally result in his body dying, thus count as killing him for however casts the spell; and worse that person could then have Voormas's soul around too.

                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                  This post concerns what you say, maybe it can help you:
                  Eh. Internet debates about crossover fights are rarely that informative. Two NPCs that are meant to be big fights towards the end of a major metaplot event are designed to be interesting for that fight, not for squaring off against each other.

                  They're also designed for their games, not for crossover stuff. What has people claiming Voormas is so hard to beat in crossover are things like his stats letting him turn his blades to silver to do lots of unsoakable damage to werewolves, because in Mage that's not really a big deal, and it's not going to help you kill other mages, but in Werewolf it's a huge deal.

                  And that's the thing. Voormas is designed to be taken down by mages... and has a bunch of weaknesses you don't have to be that powerful of a mage to exploit, or think of exploiting. Most characters from other splats aren't necessarily going to have the powers to do it, or know to even think of it. Because beating Voormas is about fighting like a mage: fighting smart, not hard. Going after Voormas with some super powered vampires with 7+ in the physical Disciplines is dumb, because that's a fight Voormas is designed to win. Throw a measly starting level Ravnos that focuses on Chimerstry in their with the knowledge of Voormas's fear of death? And Voormas is going to be wasting lots of time/power cancelling those illusions, and then being insanely vulnerable to physical attacks.

                  They compare him with Zhyzak, maybe the most powerful canon werewolf.
                  The most physically powerful individual werewolf. Power isn't just based in how big your combat ratings are. She's designed for winning a one-on-one duel with another Garou (it is literally her destiny and she knows it and trains for it), not for being the best all around fighter for her combat level in Werewolf.

                  But in theory all guys having stats are killable.
                  And more importantly, killing Voormas is supposed to be a viable course of events for the Ascension finale. This is not a case of "well it has stats so it's theoretically possible." You're supposed to be able to do it, even if it's a high difficulty/cost fight meant for high XP characters.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                    If a non-mage kills him? They'd still end up cursed by his legacy and - recognizing that they can't perform his plans in that state - get themselves killed by attacking a powerful mage to pass it on to them.
                    It could be interesting to see how other supernaturals would try to perform his plans. Suicide by Mage sounds plausible, and it would be the optimal way to go if there are other potent mages arround and the apocalipse it's near. In Ascencion that's almost a given.

                    Still, I wonder if other consequences are impossible. Inheriting Voormass madness doesn't necesarily means that you will be able to destroy Death yesterday, it merely pushes you towards that goal. It would be feasible to control and groom a mage until it grows powerful enough to cast the spell. And it's not like other splats haven't their own apocaliptic mcguffin powers.

                    It could be a way to create an interesting antagonist for a crossover chronicle. The players follow clues to the Archmage, discover his cause, and then find Voormass is dead...but then discover that someone else has inherited his cause and resources, yet it's not a mage.
                    Last edited by Aleph; 06-05-2019, 01:41 PM.

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                    • #11
                      On the Cainite end, I can see Voormas' death curse sending his killer to learn everything they can about the metaphysics of death, which in all likelihood sends them to the Giovanni and their Endless Night master plan.

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                      • #12
                        The wording of the curse is that it transfers to the person with the strongest sympathetic tie, which is probably the killer. But another candidate could be Theora, she is Voormas' last remaining apprentice as well as being the one he seems to have had the most influence over. Plus, she's probably not that powerful a mage when the players need to restrain her.

                        'Course, that's a pretty dark way to end things.


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                        • #13
                          I'm of the opinion that (almost) anything is possible, but direct combat probably isn't the best approach.

                          In Don't Kill it - there is a demon that possesses the person that kills it.
                          Spoiler - the creature is banished to hell because the last person to kill the host has pulled pins to a grenade; killing themselves

                          So that's a possibility to get around the curse. But I encourage the ability to think around a problem to work in general.

                          Otherwise, a group of comparable, or slightly weaker mages that can counter everything that Voormas tries to spit out would make things really hard for him. It's even be possible to counter the curse, or unweave it, from what I understand, but that'd probably take another massive ritual to get the successes to break it down.

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                          • #14
                            Something I only just noticed; the curse specifically mentions that it passes to the Awakened with the closest sympathetic tie.


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                            • #15
                              Just surround him and his killer with ordinary accountants and let the Paradox finish him.

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