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Sorcerer vs Dabbler

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Demon: the Fallen has rules for Thralls that many consider to be an evolution of the aforementioned Infernal Pact material.

    They're not bad. I tought they were very limited as presented in the Basic, but if you add the book about Thralls they become quite versatile...

    ...the only problem I have with those rules it's that they limit the power that can be granted trough infernal pacts by tying it to the "faith potential" of the subject. And "faith potential" it's supposed to be incredibly low on almost everyone. Only the holiest persons can be granted more than one or two "investments" of very small potency.

    It's not bad to have limits, but I think these rules are very much intended to limit the power of PCs "minions" (to "Ghoul level") and to adjust to the themes of Demon (a world devoid of Faith that's hell compared with the "golden age"). They don't take in count the narrative needs of an ST that wants to use this as a tool to create enemies fueled by hellish might. Not a surprise, really, that's not the kind of antagonists you will use for Demon (mortals with hellish powers aren't very scary when you're Satan).

    To be used to create infernal Sorcerers one could grant them a higher than average "potential", and other classic factors could be considered (like the power of the summoned demon and the sacrifices made).
    Last edited by Aleph; 08-15-2019, 03:02 PM.

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    • #17
      A simple edit of the point cost of giving investments/powers. The amount of abilities you could reasonably give was pretty shitty.

      Then again I think one of the lore books said Hunters were actually Lucifer's Thralls (Or something like that?) So you could say a powerful demon can just act as the source of Power for a Hunter or something. I think their powers are usually decent right?
      (Hunter is one of the only source books I've never really looked at)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jihelu View Post
        Then again I think one of the lore books said Hunters were actually Lucifer's Thralls (Or something like that?) So you could say a powerful demon can just act as the source of Power for a Hunter or something. I think their powers are usually decent right?
        They're good when used in group, Hunters aren't very strong alone. And they're good mostly to cancel supernatural advantages. Hunter powers are very "Hunter".

        They're good for what they were buit, but as Sorcerers fueled by Hell's might, I would rather use a modified Demon system. Using different cost (as you say) or providing more points to expend.

        On a different subject, as an idea for those that don't like Sorcerery to be a subset of Awakened magick: One could say that the Pact itself it's one these misterious sources of magic that make Sorcery possible in the first place (as mentined in this thread). Buying Paths that relate to the Lores or Charms/Concepts of the Master learned trough faith and the study of Demonic misteries.
        Last edited by Aleph; 08-16-2019, 11:03 AM.

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        • #19
          Sorcery being a subset of Awakened Magick is both kinda suggested and kinda not suggested by the Lore. I just personally don't use it as objective fact, but the Order of Hermes probably views it as something like that seeing as they teach someone sorcery THEN try to get them to awaken via training. So the lore is there to agree with you, but there is always other bits of lore that completely disagree.

          Sounds cool though, your idea. You need an extra 'spark' to break through your mundaneness, instead of doing a shit ton of weird alchemy stuff you do it by lowkey filling your mind with knowledge of the 'divine spark' or whatever.

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          • #20
            The “Hunters are Lucifer's Thralls” thing appeared in one of the Time of Judgment scenarios for Demon, though it didn't actually refer to them as Thralls. As with everything in ToJ, it needs to be taken with some skepticism. Still, it's an intriguing possibility.

            The bit about the Order of Hermes teaching acolytes sorcery as a step toward Awakening them never sat well with me, as it implies that there's enough of a connection between the two that an Awakened mage can teach sorcery: it makes about as much sense to me as a mage teaching Disciplines to a vampire or Arts and Realms to a Changeling. Sorcery simply isn't the same thing as what mages do. Which is another reason why I prefer an actual subset of Awakened Magic to exist, independent of sorcery: rather than teaching Hedge Magic Paths to acolytes, the Order of Hermes teaches them rotes.

            As for the idea that an Infernal Investment (or a Thralldom Pact) could serve as the initiation into the Otherworld that distinguishes a sorcerer from a dabbler: I like it in theory, though it runs counter to the notion that demons seek to enslave their thralls: Spheres granted to a mage limit his ability to further develop his powers on his own.


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            • #21
              Well it heavily explains it to the point where I like it that it isn't really like, a linear progression.

              It's like
              "Hey we got regular people, we teach you sorcery to let you know 'You can DO magick', and it's up to the person to make the leap of going 'This is cool...I don't want it, fuck sorcery. Yeet it in the trash. Use your every will and being to say 'I AM magick', and congrats you awaken. For hermetics this takes a long process and usually they don't awaken till Third Degree which is like 1-5 years or something. It also kinda explains the whole 'you don't keep sorcery as a True Mage' (which I don't understand why they hate so much but -shrugs- atleast they kinda...explain it, if poorly at that)

              Isn't there stuff in Book of Secrets about teaching Mundanes/sorcerers Rotes that they can preform with willpower and still incur paradox.

              "I like it in theory, though it runs counter to the notion that demons seek to enslave their thralls: Spheres granted to a mage limit his ability to further develop his powers on his own."

              You could do what I think the infernalist book does and that: If you get an Avatar from a Demon you're basically fucked in the long run no matter what. The Avatar is usually corrupted anyway and you may or may not get the classical Vampire/Ghoul Mage thing of 'I'm gonna fucking lose my Magick/soul eventually'. I forget the specifics though, I haven't read the details in a bit.

              I also just liked the idea that powerful Demons (And I guess powerful Spirits) can semi-guide awakenings or flat out cause them.

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              • #22
                Gods and Monsters has a write-up of sorcerers that describes their spellcasting in terms of rotes. It's a very incomplete description (e.g., it doesn't have anything about what dice pool the sorcerer uses for a given rote) and it presents it as a stopgap measure for those who don't have access to a book describing Hedge Magic. As well, I don't think it says anything about using Willpower instead of Quintessence. But yeah; there's something there about Sleepers learning rotes.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  Demon: the Fallen has rules for Thralls that many consider to be an evolution of the aforementioned Infernal Pact material.

                  I've thought of that, as well as the basic Infernal Investment rules from Book of the Wyrm. So they burn a permanent willpower, but Thralls just have a set potential of boons from Thralldom, that they can get all in one go, or just have them progressively activated as needed, while Infernal Pacts usually seem to be just progressively deeper pacts. So Possessed in revised has the Autonomy system which would be a good way to represent this, sacrifice autonomy for power.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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