Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Linear magic should be weak.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Linear magic should be weak.

    I'm always confused when linear magic gets portrayed as nearly equal to Sphere magic in terms of raw power. I really don't like this for three reasons.

    First, the setting materials don't really support this. if linear mages are so great, and have the added bonus of immunity to Paradox, why are they such an afterthought in the setting? If Clan Tremere poses a serious threat to the Order of Hermes, why don't human linear mages, who are supposedly as numerous if not more, have similar influence in the WoD? If they are not a distinct group and are thought of as just mages like any other, why don't the main books make them an equally emphasized PC type? My other two objections are also my answers to these questions.

    Second, the metaphysics don't support this. Linear magic operates on Mythic Threads, which are semi-conscious beliefs about magic that run through the Consensus. In the age of unbelief, they are very weak. I can see linear magic working in the Medieval or even Early Modern periods--but the Enlightenment and later? Come on.

    Most importantly, having a lot of powerful sorcerers creates a lot of clutter in the setting. Probably one of the biggest reasons they aren't included more in the setting is that they don't really fit. They don't fit thematically, they don't fit politically, as I said before they don't fit metaphysically.

    So what role do I think sorcerers should have in Mage? Minimal, with some exceptions. The vast majority should be partly-Awakened people with some grasp on mythic threads, a kind of side show below the level of ghouls in Vampire. Some of them might have true power--but it is not their power. I am talking about Diablerists of course. Hapless mortals consorting with Umbrood, UnAwakened Nephandic disciples being used by Deep Umbral beings.

  • #2
    I think Linear Magic should be restricted to those Paths able to operate in a limited paradigm of the modern world. They should only have effects that ordinary people could not see, or be thought of fitting into the coincidental effect. In theory, those lands where the Paradigm allows for more coincidental effects, could allow for more Paths to operate.

    Otherwise, any Paths that have "Vulgar magickal effects" could only work if 1) they pull from diabolical or otherwise magical otherwordly sources, or 2) can only work if the Sorcerer has possession of something that obviously has Tass and could only work for a limited amount of time until that Tass is exhausted. Sometimes this means that a Path is available, but only until a certain rank. They can still learn that Rank, but it doesn't work. It used to work during an earlier time, and might work if they were in the right area.

    That's how I try to run it in my games, which aren't Mage games at all, but I try to keep things coherent/consistent with Mage. These are generally NPCc in my chronicles for Vampire and Werewolf.

    So I allow most Psychic Phenomenon, but restrict the number of psychics and avoid the more fantastical psychic numina. I try to keep it so that observers could doubt most of the time the psychic was real and can easily attribute it to fakery.

    For traditional paths of Sorcery, I allow only those that could be accepted in the real world. Anything too flashy, and it can't be done. We're talking stuff in old school occult books (like The Devil Rides Out), not modern Urban Fantasy. I allow:
    • Cursing
    • Divination
    • Ephemera
    • Summoning/Binding/Warding (Material)
    • Summoning/Binding/Warding (Daimonic)
    Paths that work to a point include:
    • Alchemy (up to level 4)
    • ​Enchantment (up to level 2)
    • Healing (up to level 4)
    • Herbalism/Brewing (up to level 3)
    There are some things I only allow if there is some kind of artifact involved - like having the pelt of a Balam harvested centuries ago, passed down from generation to generation and occasionally soaked in blood to keep its "spirit" active. Eliminate the artifact, and the Path simply doesn't work. These kind of artifacts can't be made anymore, or if they are it is only by capturing some kind of inherently magical creature and harvesting it from them. I keep these because I still think some witches should fly on broomsticks, and I think the Balamob are pretty cool (though I've never used them).
    • Conveyance
    • Fascination
    • Shapeshifting
    Some I don't allow at all. But if I can be convinced it's part of "real world" occult tradition instead of fantasy, I am open to changing my mind. Some of these powers may be available if you have a powerful Umbral patron. Most likely it has to be duplicated by one of the Infernalist Paths. I might force some kind of roll against the gauntlet before I allow normal mechanics to determine effects. These includes:
    • Conjuration
    • Shadows
    • Hellfire
    • Weathercraft
    Having any Pathos of Sorcery pretty much means the person must be an occult nutjob and member of some kind of magical order. This takes DISCIPLINE and a certain degree of enlightenment. They just don't have awakened Avatars.
    I don't like the idea any Linear Magic can do things a Sphere using Mage can't do, or do it easier. The game just does not make sense if that is the case.

    Comment


    • #3
      Arguably, Linear Magic wasn't created for Mage; it was created to provide magicians for the other gamelines without having to go into all of Mage's metaphysics. With that in mind, my approach to sorcerers is to ignore the bit about their powers being based on Mythic Threads: that's just a rationale that mages use to explain it in the same way they have been known to try to rationalize vampires through the lens of “True Magick”.

      In my games, sorcerers have about as much in common with mages on a metaphysical level as vampires and werewolves do. Instead of being empowered by Avatars that channel the mage's will channeled by belief, a sorcerer is connected to an Otherworld of hidden supernatural truths which he studies. His Paths represent which occult mysteries he has studied, and to what extent. (This perspective has support in the first edition of World of Darkness: Sorcerer.)

      With this in mind, I'm less concerned with the relative power between mages and sorcerers (as sorcerers are unlikely to show up in my Mage games) as I am with the relative power between sorcerers vs. vampires or werewolves; and in general, I want sorcerers to be a threat to vampires and werewolves. Rather than nerfing them, I'm more inclined to buff them.




      With that said, I fibbed: I actually am OK with the notion of unAwakened magicians whose powers come from mythic threads. I just prefer to treat them as a completely separate phenomenon from sorcerers. Rather than use a completely independent game system to represent their magic, I prefer something more along the lines of how Gods and Monsters handles them: they're Sleepers who have limited access to Sphere Magic. I know that was written as an approximation of the Paths system; but I prefer to treat it as a thing in its own right: These “sorcerers" are Sleepers who unknowingly focus their will through belief to achieve magic; and since they're doing (a limited subset of) what the Awakened do, it's only fitting to use (a slightly modified version of) the same rules to represent their magic.

      For these “sorcerers”, I'm all in favor of saying that their magic is weaker than Awakened magic: literally, anything one of these “sorcerers” can do, an Awakened mage can do just as well, if not better. Their role in the game is as custos for mages, and as potential mages, nothing more (and nothing less): they represent the ability of belief, even Sleeper belief, to work miracles through rote practice rather than true understanding.
      Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-29-2019, 11:47 AM.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
        Arguably, Linear Magic wasn't created for Mage; it was created to provide magicians for the other gamelines without having to go into all of Mage's metaphysics.
        I find it hard to argue with that. Because that is how I use them. However, I do want what a Sorcerer does to be compatible with the metaphysics in Mage.

        Comment


        • #5
          That's a good point about them being better-suited to other WoD games than Mage mages. Not only are their metaphysics complicated, they take up a huge portion of the setting as written. I actually think I had a similar discussion in this forum a couple years ago and then forgot. Thanks Dataweaver! You are a gentleperson and a scholar.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
            I find it hard to argue with that. Because that is how I use them. However, I do want what a Sorcerer does to be compatible with the metaphysics in Mage.
            If, by “what a sorcerer does”, you're referring to the system of Paths that are mechanically distinct from Sphere Magick in virtually every way, then why do you want it to be compatible with the metaphysics in Mage? Rather than trying to graft them onto Mage, go the other way and sever what few ties exist between them so that the only thing they have in common is a surface similarity in what they do. As far as I know, there's no comparable push for establishing a metaphysical compatibility with Mage metaphysics for the other Numina (e.g., Psychic Phenomena and True Faith).

            All that said, I agree with the thrust of your first post for the most part: I also try to keep sorcery subtle in the games where I use it, up to the point that everyone else starts “going loud”. When the tone of the game shifts from “secret magic, and monsters in the shadows” to full-blown urban fantasy, the gloves come off and sorcerers get the full scope of Path Magic. The point, though, is that this is motivated by the desired feel of the game, not by how sorcerers compare to mages.



            And again, I do understand and sympathize with the desire to have “wannabe mages” who do manage to tap into the same metaphysics that mages do, just in a much more limited way. I simply don't see the point in using a completely separate set of game systems to handle them when a handful of tweaks to Mage's systems would easily cover the same ground and do so much more elegantly.

            Frankly, it's a surprisingly easy thing to enable: treat it as a fourth category of the Enhancement Background, “Training”:
            Training
            Your tutelage under the watchful eye of a master has allowed you to learn how to perform one of the Common Magickal Effects (M20, pp.508–510) with a dice pool equal to the stated highest Sphere requirement for that Effect. Unlike the other types of Enhancement, this is available beyond the Technocracy. And unlike most Backgrounds, this one must be purchased with Experience Points, with a Background rating equal to the dice pool. The only other requirement is that the student must have a suitable Focus (Paradigm, Practice, and Instruments) to perform the Effect, and must actually perform the Effect according to that Focus: even mystics don't get to Work Without Focus or Grow Beyond their Tools when using Training. This restricts Training to mages and their acolytes (i.e., Enlightened Citizens and their non-Technocracy counterparts), as regular Sleepers don't have a Focus.

            Trainers
            From the teacher's perspective, granting Training to a student is akin to crafting a Virtual Wonder in the pupil's mind (“Living and Virtual Foundations”, Book of Secrets, p.154), except that the student pays for it with experience instead of the teacher having to invest it with Quintessence (Book of Secrets, pp.154–155) — and, due to the slower process involved, the Training doesn't come with any Flaws. Similar to Artifacts and Grimoires, the teacher must spend a dot of Willpower on each student and a point of personal Quintessence on each roll. The dot of Willpower allows the student to acquire multiple Training Backgrounds; you don't need to invest another dot of Willpower for each Effect the student learns.
            That's it. All other game mechanics are precisely the same as regular Mage. Admittedly, there's room for elaboration:

            Technocracy and Training
            Technocrats have a way around the Willpower and personal Quintessence costs for crafting Devices and Principiae; by extension, they can also waive those costs for Training (though they can't waive the students' experience costs, any more than they get to waive the Base Quintessence Cost of crafting a Wonder when creating Devices or Grimoires).

            Grimoires and Training
            It might also be possible to craft Grimoires and Principiae that provide Training, permitting magicians who gain their spells from musty tomes (or their paradigm-equivalents) instead of Mentors (though you might still require a teacher to spend a dot of Willpower on the acolyte to initiate him into the Art and enable him to pick up Training Backgrounds): a double-cost variation on the Library Background might serve as access to such Grimoires in the same way that the Requisitions Background provides access to an assortment of Devices. You might also extend this to treating an acolyte who has a suitable Grimoire in his possession as if he was wielding an Artifact: by carefully following the instructions in the Grimoire, he can perform the Effect even though he hasn't yet learned it.

            Organized Training
            You may also want to insist on Training being thematically grouped: while there's nothing in the mechanics that prevents an acolyte from going all over the place, it's more appropriate for a given pupil to stick to, say, Illusions, or Spirit Powers, or Fate and Fortune effects. And if you really want to structure an acolyte's Training, you could impose a requirement that the student must start from one-dot Effects and work his way up. If you want to put this into the mechanics, you can either forbid the learning of Effects that don't fit these patterns or require an experience point surcharge for them. Something like this could be used to structure acolyte magic into “paths”, similar to the Paths that sorcerers wield but without the additional game system overhead and potential for contradictions that the Numina entail.

            Paradox and Training
            If you don't want to track Paradox for acolytes, you can rule that the lack of an Awakened Avatar means that any Paradox they generate backlashes in full immediately: don't even roll for the backlash; just treat it as a bunch of automatic successes.

            Mages and Training
            As mentioned above, Training isn't restricted to just acolytes; the Awakened can benefit from it, too. That said, Arete and Spheres tend to overshadow Training: once your Arete exceeds your Training, the Training is going to use smaller dice pools than the mage could otherwise manage — though it may still be worth it if the mage doesn't have the right Spheres to reproduce the Training's Effect without the Training. Still, the Storyteller might consider saying that Training can use the mage's Arete as its dice pool if that's higher.

            You might introduce a rule where mages with Training get an experience cost reduction when raising a Sphere related to that Training (say, reduce the cost multiplier for the Sphere by one per suitable Training Background that he has, to a minimum of half the original cost), up to the level where the Sphere renders the Training moot: Training that provides a three-dot Effect won't help you when buying the fourth dot in that Sphere. When you have access to Spheres, Training is not cost-effective in the long run, even with this option; this can be used to justify mages rarely having Training. But there might be other factors that make it worth the less efficient experience cost, like having access to a key Effect before you've had the chance to raise your Sphere sufficiently.

            It's also possible that the Training may never be rendered moot: in the same way that an Instrument that you've Surpassed can still be used to get a -1 difficulty reduction to the casting, a mage with Training that has been surpassed by the appropriate Spheres might likewise get a -1 difficulty reduction when using that Training. That said, you wouldn't be able to combine the two difficulty reductions: using your Training means that you can't Surpass the associated Instruments.

            Instant Training
            Finally, there's the possibility of “insta-Training”: just like regular Training, except that the teacher invests Quintessence into the student's mind, inflicting Flaws in the process (akin to the rules for creating a Relic, but with Mind instead of Life) instead of the student spending experience points to properly internalize the Training. This concept of using Prime and Mind to rapidly instill knowledge could go beyond learning Effects to other kinds of learning: “I know Kung Fu.”

            In my Technocracy games, Training is an NWO innovation just as Cybernetics are Iteration X's and Biomods and Gengineering are the Progenitors'. That said, the Syndicate quickly latched onto it, and the other Conventions have adopted it, too. That said, “insta-Training” is still very much an NWO specialty.
            Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-29-2019, 04:22 PM.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Faradn View Post

              If they are not a distinct group and are thought of as just mages like any other, why don't the main books make them an equally emphasized PC type?
              cause they lack the depth that the usual WoD PCs have,
              it's not about power,
              sorcerers suffer less from paradox than awakened mages, and don't have the same inner conflicts that awakened have

              in VtM, you are allowed to play a blood mage, but discouraged to play an infernal blood mage,
              both have the same powers, but one is stripped from some of the moral ambiguity and depth that is core to the game


              I'm always confused when linear magic gets portrayed as nearly equal to Sphere magic in terms of raw power.
              why?
              it has the same power, but is more time consuming and less flexible.
              linear magic requires you to learn and develop each rote separately,

              sphere magic, however, allows you to pull out any rotes as long as you have the spheres,
              and, even with low level spheres, you can create great effects given enough time,

              and, even if they don't suffer from paradox to the same degree that awakened do, the risks are still high enough that they still have to be careful,

              there's really no problem there


              Second, the metaphysics don't support this. Linear magic operates on Mythic Threads, which are semi-conscious beliefs about magic that run through the Consensus. In the age of unbelief, they are very weak.
              pretty sure it is supported, but not to the degree that you think.

              in Revised, it was said that the Tremere magic was getting weaker because magic was dying in modern nights.
              it was even used as a convenient explanation for why their magic was getting weaker with each edition and, I suspect, might be used to explain why Vienna got rekt by drones in v5

              so, I would think even linear magic is affected by the consensus to some degree.
              the magic is still pretty strong however, but getting gradually weaker

              note that it isn't specified which type of magic is getting weaker, so we don't know if technomancy is affected the same way


              Most importantly, having a lot of powerful sorcerers creates a lot of clutter in the setting.
              you're absolutely right.
              but here's the thing, you don't have to make them powerful, and they're probably not that powerful

              only a chunk of the Tremere clan (as an example) are really powerful, the rest are struggling to get to some threatening level,
              same for sorcerers,
              they'll have trouble attaining a high level,
              assuming they even have access to the knowledge (it's much harder to improve your magic on your own instead of learning from a mentor or book or similar)

              powerful sorcerers are rare and far in between,
              and when they grow in number, they tend to enter into conflict, killing each other, and eventually re-stabilizing the balance,
              on top of the unfortunate casualties caused by careless practice (or just bad luck)

              but having sorcerers around isn't a bad thing (especially for other gamelines),
              the order of hermes does employ sorcerers from what I've been told,

              and, as a vampire player, I really don't like having to go to the Tremere every time I need a scar fixed,
              especially if I don't have good standing with them, and the fact that local Tremere aren't that numerous and don't necessarily have the services I need available most of the time,

              as for awakened, they're not only rare, but also not very accommodating (not only do most of them hate vampires, their magic is a bit...hit or miss, and pricey)
              Last edited by Pleiades; 07-01-2019, 06:21 AM.


              -

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                but having sorcerers around isn't a bad thing (especially for other gamelines),
                the order of hermes does employ sorcerers from what I've been told,
                I've been told that too, by the books. Fun fact: It's never, ever, a thing. You're NEVER going to see these oh, so advantaged (as they do have a learning institution unlike most sorcerers) Sorcerers doing anything worth of mention or being part of the plot, or being argued as a solution to anything.

                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                and, as a vampire player, I really don't like having to go to the Tremere every time I need a scar fixed,
                especially if I don't have good standing with them, and the fact that local Tremere aren't that numerous and don't necessarily have the services I need available most of the time,

                as for awakened, they're not only rare, but also not very accommodating (not only do most of them hate vampires, their magic is a bit...hit or miss, and pricey)
                This is no wonder, and it actually higlights the problem: You yourself say that "their magic is a bit...hit or miss". If Sorcerer magick it's so convinient, then why they never do anything?

                If Sorcerers really can grant magic w/o Paradox or any other downside and they have been part of Traditions/Conventions for centuries, they should have a much more powerful role in Mage: Can't be immortal with TM?, cultivate and acomodate Alchemists. Can't pass the Avatar Storm, let a Sorcerer open the way for you - problem solved. Eventually the Factions should have produced a few that can provide such services at a reasonable price...under Sorcerer PC rules it ain't so difficult to get there

                Infernal Thaumatuges aren't playable, but they're a thing in their setting. They're the main reason to exist of the Inquisition in the Sabbat. Sorcerers aren't really a thing in Mage. Not a thing that matters anyway. They're not important for the setting, and they're as much a walking contradiction to Mage Lore as vampires. More, in fact, because vampires pay their powers with their Curse and having to take blood and convert it into Tass to exist.

                The reason of these hardships, simply put, it's that Sorcerers were invented for Vampire. They exist since Hunters Hunted, and follow a more general take on mortal magic that fits WoD in general...

                They're a good thing to have for Vampire and Werewolf, and should never have been co-opted by Mage. Mage it's the worst gameline to introduce Sorcerers. Mage has mortal mages and the metaphysics to explain them, it doesn't need another version of mortal magic following another set of methaphisics. Weak Static Mages proving that Belief works make sense to Mage. Sorcerers are as out there for Mage as any other major Splat, and should be treated accordingly
                Last edited by Aleph; 07-01-2019, 08:06 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                  This is no wonder, and it actually higlights the problem: You yourself say that "their magic is a bit...hit or miss". If Sorcerer magick it's so convinient, then why they never do anything?

                  If Sorcerers really can grant magic w/o Paradox or any other downside and they have been part of Traditions/Conventions for centuries, they should have a much more powerful role in Mage: Can't be immortal with TM?, cultivate and acomodate Alchemists. Can't pass the Avatar Storm, let a Sorcerer open the way for you - problem solved. Eventually the Factions should have produced a few that can provide such services at a reasonable price...under Sorcerer PC rules it ain't so difficult to get there
                  wait, you can't be immortal with TM?
                  unless you mean bypassing the paradox. in which case, it's fairly ok, since it's alchemy regimen, the awakened will have to maintain the alchemists to get his immortality fix

                  also, I don't think the avatar storm is within sorcerers' abilities,
                  sorcerers can only do magic that the awakened have unlocked,
                  if awakened can't fix the storm, neither can the sorcerers

                  I'd add that it actually can never be done by sorcerers, since it might fall under the colossal feats that sorcerers normally can't pull off
                  (refer to storyteller's prerogative on p.64 in sorcerer revised)


                  -

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    They're a good thing to have for Vampire and Werewolf, and should never have been co-opted by Mage. Mage it's the worst gameline to introduce Sorcerers. Mage has mortal mages and the metaphysics to explain them, it doesn't need another version of mortal magic following another set of methaphisics. Weak Static Mages proving that Belief works make sense to Mage. Sorcerers are as out there for Mage as any other major Splat, and should be treated accordingly
                    This. IMHO, one of the big mistakes in Sorcerer Revised was to try to include sorcerers in the ranks of the Traditions. My own approach to sorcerers (unless and until they get their own X20 product) is to use the crunch of Sorcerer Revised and the fluff of WoD: Sorcerer.

                    And a bit on my own personal use of terminology: “Linear Mage” was a term coined in SRev to describe Sleepers among the Traditions who nonetheless wield magic. In that book, it was also being used as another name for “Sorcerer”. In my games, I co-opt it to refer to what Aleph refers to as “weak Static mages proving that Belief works”: the “acolyte magic” that I've been ranting about in my other posts here. And I really, truly think that these “Static mages” need to be kept distinct from sorcerers and the Numina, even if characters in the setting have a tendency to confuse the two.

                    What a sorcerer can do is not necessarily limited by (or even related to) what the Awakened have figured out how to do; what a Static mage can do is.
                    Last edited by Dataweaver; 07-02-2019, 09:30 AM.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pleiades
                      unless you mean bypassing the paradox. in which case, it's fairly ok, since it's alchemy regimen, the awakened will have to maintain the alchemists to get his immortality fix
                      Eh, really? For lesser versions it's true, but Alchemy 6 immortality didn't sounded like it was limited by time. So you would only need to foster alchemists until some grows that powerful, if I'm not wrong

                      Soo, you would be a bit dependant on someone else (maybe forever), yeah, but it beats having to hunt vampires for blood while protecting against the Blood Bond, dealing with Archdemons and similarly powerful Spirits, or having to go to legendary Realms in order to find your "fix".
                      Fostering alchemists within your organization it's much safer in the long run, and since "safe" immortality it's so important for the Mage Lore (one of the major reasons of the Ascencion War) it's too important a subject to not be treated. Really, everyone should be doing it.

                      Unless the ingredients for the ritual are every bit as epic (like, say, having to find an apple form the Tree of Life or the blood of Tiamat) or the ritual grows more difficult with time, it's a much better option than anything mages tried to do (why did Hermetics bothered to deal with vampires to become Ghouls if they have hordes of Sorcerers working for them?) .

                      also, I don't think the avatar storm is within sorcerers' abilities,
                      They can lower the barrier between worlds to 0. When you do that Awakened can cross w/o problem (it's one of the many ways of bypasing the Storm, and the reason why Shalowings work). Magick technically can do this, but you eat Agg and Paradox every time you "open the doors".

                      Everyone that's someone should have a "Gauntlet opener" Sorcerer, and it should be a respected position in Chantries.

                      sorcerers can only do magic that the awakened have unlocked,
                      ​if awakened can't fix the storm, neither can the sorcerers
                      Well, Sorcerer Revised implies this, but it isn't really well covered. Either the one who did the books wasn't very aware of the powers and limitations of Mages or didn't cared to balance the powers that way.

                      But, actually, it's not "Sorcerers being powerful" what doesn't make sense. It's Sorcerers being so aproachable for Mages what doesn't make sense. If they weren't so ubiquitous and had their own turf, then I can see few Mages exploiting their advantages. Just as few Mages can exploit the advantages of other Splats (and when they do, it's often with nasty consequences)

                      As Dataweaver says, Sorcerers aren't really limited by what mages can do (Well, almost nothing it's impossible for Mages, but Sorcerers make some very tricky subjects seem easy).

                      So, you either need to "nerf" Sorcerers using ST prerogative, as you mentioned, and/or the rule that disalows to use obvious magic in the presence of unbelievers...or separate them from Mage and their metaphysics. It's just doesn't make sense for mages to treat them as "Ghouls" or lesser mages, and then never mention them, when they can solve most Mage problems. And it doesn't make sense for them to not respect the limits of Awakened magick if they're supposed to be a byproduct of that magick.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 07-02-2019, 08:51 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Honestly, I treat Sorcery like an artifact. A very hard to make artifact and more or less ignore the mechanics for sorcery as something for other games not about mages.

                        But basically, Path of Sorcery requires Prime 5 to weave the path into the tapestry of Reality, as well as Correspondence 5 to be present wherever it's practicioners are. To bind themselves to the path typically requires some skill, as appropriate to the path, and the initial binding costs a dot of will power, as you separate that portion of yourself to give to the path. From there effects can be added to the path under the same rules as adding effect to an artifact.

                        So it's sort of an invisible, omnipresent communal artifact.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Not precisely the way I'd do it (see my earlier post for that); but I fully endorse the notion of “wannabe mages who can cast spells” being a variation on “properly attuned Sleepers who can wield Artifacts”. You might want to take a look at Virtual Artifacts, as they're already a sort of invisible, omnipresent communal Artifact.

                          And I like the notion of letting the student pay the dot of Willpower that “Artifact creation” usually requires; I think I'm going to steal it. (It has the advantage of enabling the “magician learned her spells from a book” concept.) I'm also mulling over the idea of “one dot of Willpower for a ‘path’ of related Effects” as a middle ground between “one dot of Willpower per Effect” (which strikes me as too pricey) and “one dot of Willpower per magician” (which is probably too cheap).


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, the logic I had there was partly based in revised mechanics. The difference between a device and an artifact was that an artifact required the sacrificial dot of will power, but could do magic on its own rather than requiring a wielder.

                            So each student sacrifices a dot of Willpower to create a pseudo-Avatar for the path. Once done, you have to use whatever skills the path required to perform spells, that is effects built into the path, and if your skill roll hits whatever threshold the spells maker set, the path rolls it's Arete and bam, magic happens. One thing that's a big problem for path users though is Paradox. Because all their magic comes from the same source, they don't have an individual paradox pool. It all goes into the path. Meaning it's very easy for path magic to go very wrong very quick if the students aren't careful.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                              Eh, really? For lesser versions it's true, but Alchemy 6 immortality didn't sounded like it was limited by time. So you would only need to foster alchemists until some grows that powerful, if I'm not wrong
                              it says 'regimen' in the book, which means it's a treatment you'd have to take regularly,
                              there's even an example of a lvl4 regimen that slows down aging by 12 times, and you'd get back all the years if you stopped the treatment (which is similar to how ghouls work)

                              as for ingredients...I don't know, WoD seems to make a big deal out of immortality, so it might be hard,
                              but hearing all the real world talk about curing aging in the coming decades makes it sound like at least the technos will have an easy fix for it (but that's speculation on my part)


                              -

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X