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Qlippothic Spheres, Resonance and Other Things

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  • Qlippothic Spheres, Resonance and Other Things

    So... Mage 20 says -- somewhere -- Qlippothic Spheres are the same as regular Spheres. The doesn't jibe with the Book of Madness revised. No one can probably tell with Rank 1 Spheres anyway. How do you hide the corruption? Cloaking 5? Mind 4, Dimensional Science 4? How do you redeem a widderslainte? Suicide? We have an ex-Gladius Dei with True Faith 5, a Holy Relic and Holy Ground, which stacks to Faith 9. But that just causes a ton of pain and helps with resisting corruption. Chucking the Nephandus into Erebus won't work. hm...
    Last edited by Saint Michael; 08-06-2019, 12:38 AM.

  • #2
    Does anyone know where True Faith 6+ is? I can't find it. Thanks

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Saint Michael
      So... Mage 20 says -- somewhere -- Qlippothic Spheres are the same as regular Spheres. The doesn't jibe with the Book of Madness revised.
      It kinda does.

      While the Fluff it's different, the powers are the same, there's nothing in Book of Madness revised that makes the mechanic of the Qlippothic Spheres any different (other than suggesting they are more Vulgar, w/o giving any mechanic for it). RAW they do the same Effects at the same levels, even if one describes it as "bending space" and the other as "destroying it". So they can be the same unless the ST choses to fiddle with the number of successes needed or the axis of Vulgarity

      How do you hide the corruption? Cloaking 5? Mind 4, Dimensional Science 4?
      Ah, the classic question of how Nephandi infiltrate if they're sinkholes of corruption and evil insanity.

      Cloaking/Arcane works, as ever. Also they probably have a Rote to hide their resonance, while there's none described for Nephandi this IS possible. Hermetics have a Rote that does this, but I don't remember the Sphere levels. I imagine an Effect using Spirit 3/Prime 3/Mind 2 should be enough to deceive most ordinary readings

      How do you redeem a widderslainte? Suicide? We have an ex-Gladius Dei with True Faith 5, a Holy Relic and Holy Ground, which stacks to Faith 9. But that just causes a ton of pain and help with resisting corruption. Chucking the in Erebus won't work. hm...
      Ask Senex, as he's the only one reputed to have done this. Supposedly it's impossible, and that's why Gilgul it's sanctioned to them. But mages have a tendency to do impossible stuff from time to time.

      Have you tried to ask God?, With that much Faith it may be a good starting place
      Last edited by Aleph; 07-02-2019, 09:13 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
        No one can probably tell with Rank 1 Spheres anyway.
        Book of Madness 1st edition has Lv.1-5 Qlippothic Entropy effects, maybe it can help you.

        Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
        How do you redeem a widderslainte?
        Well there are no specific rules about this.

        But a notable cannon widderslainte called Amanda Johnson seems to succeed. She was killed by his archmage tutor Senex, then reborn as a normal mage. But we still don't know what did her tutor do, and her redeem is detable(Some thinks Senex just controls her corrupted avatar.)

        And I think a cannon rote which can restore vampire to mortal may offer you another way, it needs Prime 6, Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4 and Occult 6. In my opinion they both have the same traits (restore damned to normal) and should need archspheres to achieve. Maybe restore a widderslainte will add Spirit 4+ or Mind 4+.

        Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
        Does anyone know where True Faith 6+ is? I can't find it. Thanks
        The Hunters Hunted, a very, very old VtM book has statted Lv.1-10 "Faith".

        But I don't know whether Faith in early books and True Faith in latters are the same things or not.
        Last edited by Rock113; 07-02-2019, 09:37 AM.

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        • #5
          Thanks! True Faith would have a similar effect as Rite of Cleansing for BSDs, I think. Lots of pain, no change in corruption. Holy Ground will kill any attempt at Qlippothic Science. I don't think Heather Balm from Changeling works on spiritual corruption. True Faith in later books were rated 1 to 5. Faith 5+ is game-breaking, but we'll need it. We don't have archmagi or 5+ Spheres, so we'll need to get creative.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
            True Faith in later books were rated 1 to 5. Faith 5+ is game-breaking, but we'll need it.
            It's just an option. To be honest I think regard Faith 6+ as game-breaking could be a better choice. Maybe that's the reason why they don't appear in latter books. They don't need to.

            And btw, very old books have some crazy ideas from time to time. For instance, statting Lv.10 Disciplines, statting Incarna, just considering Generation 3- vampires as little more powerful elders and so on. They make things which should be plot device more statted.

            Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
            We don't have archmagi or 5+ Spheres, so we'll need to get creative.
            Uh yeah, but just another opinion. Something like this should become stuff of legend, in other words, very very difficult.

            You don't have archspheres, but maybe you should need equal things, like summoning a mighty spirits or doing something really miraculous to redeem him. If this can be done with ordinary magick, the Gigul won't be often used on them...
            Last edited by Rock113; 07-04-2019, 05:43 AM.

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            • #7
              On the subject of Qlippothic Spheres, M20 basically treats them like regular Spheres and handles all of the “do bad things with your magic, and people will be able to sense it” stuff as Resonance: Nephandi have a tendency to develop some rather foul Resonance. But as far as I know, that's no longer built directly into the Qlippothic Spheres. That said, the upcoming Book of the Fallen may say differently.

              The book for True Faith mechanics is the Year of the Hunter supplement The Inquisition, a Vampire book. In particular, pp.68–70 describe True Faith 6–10. The Revised Tradition Book for the Choristers also has some stuff in it about True Faith (pp.63–65); but it doesn't go into detail about having 6 or more dots; as far as I know, that's exclusive to Inquisition.


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              • #8
                I'll have to dig up my copy of Inquisition. M20's Taint of Corruption flaw does what I already going to do: make it much easier to destroy or break things, at the cost of making it harder to heal or fix things. I really want Book of the Fallen to come out. Weirdly, while there's no info on Nephandic Seekings or Descension, you can use a fair amount of stuff from various editions of Book of the Wyrm and Infernalism Path of Screams. yay

                Second edition some had weird and awesome ideas. I don't have either Celestial Chorus Tradition Book. Pity.

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                • #9
                  I wouldn't worry about not having the Celestial Chorus book. While it does have some nice stuff in it (such as how True Faith and Magick relate to each other), there's nothing of substance that isn't already covered in M20. As opposed to Inquisition, which goes into greater detail about just what benefits and Miracles someone with Faith 6+ gets.


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                  • #10
                    I kind of like the idea that pursuing true magick as a Chorister would limit one to the lower levels of True Faith, and hitting the higher reaches would require someone to have exclusive focus on religious meditation and prayer to the exclusion of things like personal power. I mean, 6+ is supposed to effectively make one a saint, and there aren't too many of those popping up in the present day.

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                    • #11
                      I think it mentions in M20 that even 4+ is saint like, maybe even 3.

                      I don't think a Chorister perfecting his ability to use the Song/Powers of the One should be limited in his True Faith. A lot of Foci/Instruments for a Chorister are probably a lot similar, and probably the same, as the means he uses to use True Faith. It becomes a real battle to identify "What is the difference between using True Faith 3 (or 4 I forget) to heal someones wounds as opposed to Life 3".
                      (Big difference being, the former doesn't incur paradox)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                        I mean, 6+ is supposed to effectively make one a saint, and there aren't too many of those popping up in the present day.
                        Maybe much stuff agrees with you. Stuff implies True Faith 6+ is very powerful and rare and will make someone a TRUE saint. They are plot device in some way.

                        I think that's the reason why rules about them are few.

                        Originally posted by Jihelu View Post
                        I think it mentions in M20 that even 4+ is saint like, maybe even 3.
                        Continually, I will use standard rules about supernatural powers to regard this. 3 is good to most guys, 4 is very excellent and talented, 5 will make you the best guy in this area to the most people.

                        So with TF 3 you're a very very good guy to most people. With 4 you're rather a real saint than good guy. 5 you're the most faithful saint to almost all people. 6... it's legend. I think it is equal to Archspheres in some way.
                        Last edited by Rock113; 07-04-2019, 05:34 AM.

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                        • #13
                          5 True Faith mentions you are /very/ close to your own 'idea' of ascending, so I imagine 6 would be crazy good.

                          I like to imagine 6 True Faith in the same way the Sorcerer Numina paths were made, it goes up to 5 with 6 being 'possible' but not really, so hitting 6 would be some crazy shit. Reviving the dead, etc.

                          (I also don't like the 6-10 levels and I prefer the "max sphere is 6" situation for spheres as well)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jihelu View Post
                            I like to imagine 6 True Faith in the same way the Sorcerer Numina paths were made, it goes up to 5 with 6 being 'possible' but not really, so hitting 6 would be some crazy shit. Reviving the dead, etc.

                            (I also don't like the 6-10 levels and I prefer the "max sphere is 6" situation for spheres as well)
                            To be honest I think almost all Lv.6+ supernatural powers are plot device except Disciplines and lesser Numinas (maybe Blood Magic is an exception). They work for stories.

                            I don't like Lv.6-10 Spheres in Masters of the Art.
                            That's really a bad book, making archspheres nothing more than just powerful effects like Disciplines(Oh and powerful rotes can do almost all of things these effects can do with tons of successes.)

                            I will only use Lv.6 Spheres in my game, which is regarded as plot device like Lv.10 Disciplines in ToJ...maybe more powerful than them. They can really achieve impossible.

                            And I hope an awesome M20 archmage book. I haven't looked Imperial Mysteries.

                            PS: And Archspehres themselves are really not "typo". Archspheres first appeared in 1st edition rulebook. An Umbrood Lord in Chapter Antagonist has Force 6, which implies other authors admit the presence of archspheres at first...
                            Last edited by Rock113; 07-04-2019, 06:06 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                              PS: And Archspehres themselves are really not "typo". Archspheres first appeared in 1st edition rulebook. An Umbrood Lord in Chapter Antagonist has Force 6, which implies other authors admit the presence of archspheres at first...
                              Which reminds me that there is a second Archsphere system that is less known than the one in Masters Of The Art; Check out 'Horizon: The Stronghold of Hope', page 117.
                              I kind of like the system that is presented in there. It only adds a 6th level of spheres, and even though it of course does not really offer anything that "Level 5 with enough successes" doesn't (especially in M20), the level 6 Spheres essentially become "Stuff you could do at level 5, but you need less gargantuan amounts of successes.", along with some refinements.


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