Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ancient cosmology of Mage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ancient cosmology of Mage

    So, modern-day Mage has both space and umbral realms attached to planets by sphere.

    I don't know Mage lore very well; was it supposed to be very different back in classical times, when the sun orbited the Earth and Pluto didn't exist?
    (I am correct that, in Mage's fluff, the world actually was flat in the Bronze Age, the sun and planets orbited it, etc?)


    My characters:
    Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
    Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
    Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

  • #2
    Yes and no... its complicated and contradictory. And we know often not true, as for instance the Garou have known the spirits of the Planetary Bodies extending to Pluto since literally prehistoric times.

    So in some Paradigms yes, in some like the Technocracy no (but we also know they revised history to suit their needs).


    It is a time for great deeds!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      And we know often not true, as for instance the Garou have known the spirits of the Planetary Bodies extending to Pluto since literally prehistoric times.
      Don't go by other gamelines when trying to figure out the past. Because you just need to go with "God created humans and the world" (Canon in some Vampire scenarios) and a lot of canon Garou history flies right out the window, starting with Adam, Lilith, Eve and Paradise, and things turn horribly messy.

      Now, in the scope of Mage there are a couple important differences between the modern age Umbral realms and the ancient past;
      Namely, that once upon a time before the Order of Reason rose to power, there was no classic space.
      Yes, people saw the stars up above, but what people would have seen with telescopes might have been quite different. They would not have seen cold dead planets, but strange worlds, visible to the naked (telescope-assisted) eye.
      There was no barrier up there, no void - there are tales of Mages simply building airships and literally flying upward into the Umbral ether, without any use of special magic aside of methods of getting up there.
      It was the Technocracy that supposedly spread the belief of "empty, cold dead space" and the planets in our solar system being equally hostile and empty worlds - but even then some glimpses could be caught, like the famous Mars canals, until the Void Engineers actually started 'Formatting Space', while scientists started debunking those last traces.

      The disbelief along with the VE's efforts combined, along with the growing gauntlet between the normal realm and the Umbra was what turned that into a reality, and a lot of things people once saw up there are either gone or simply hidden behind the gauntlet now.

      But once upon a time, all you needed was an airship to get up there, or even just a misstep in the earthly realm; Wether outer planets like Pluto actually already existed or not, is pretty much up to the ST.

      As for Earth, it can safely be presumed that shallowings were much, much, much more common. The various folklore stories about descents into the underworld (especially the greek ones) or slipping into otherworldly areas are are famous examples of even mundanes and semi-mundanes stepping into the Umbral realms.


      cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
      cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
      EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

      Comment


      • #4
        Remind me, when did the gauntlet develop?


        My characters:
        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
        Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Remind me, when did the gauntlet develop?
          I actually don't remember any specific time - somebody else probably has a more accurate answer to that. Either way, loooong ago.
          It well existed already in the dark ages, but in general the Gauntlet was way weaker, and also kind of waning and waxing, until it finally got hardened up by disbelief, the Order of Reason, and at least in my own headspace perhaps by forces behind the Gauntlet in order to protect *them* against what was happening on Earth at the time.

          EDIT:
          The only thing I can find on short notice on the WW wiki is Werewolf-lore's 'The Severing', which was during pre-history (i.e. before 5000 BCE), when the Weaver went mad. Changeling lore probably can find another date for when it started to happen.
          Last edited by Ambrosia; 07-04-2019, 10:22 AM.


          cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
          cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
          EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

          Comment


          • #6
            Changeling isn't actually going to have anything to say on the matter. They're less concerned with Gauntlets and Spirit Realms than they are with the Dreaming (which is separate from the Umbra sign much the same way that the Digital Web is separate from the Umbra: connected, but still its own thing), and their Shattering took place in the very recent past as such things go: it's less than a thousand years old, and in fact takes place near the end of the Dark Ages. It's even described in the last book published for the Dark Ages line, Darkening Skies.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
              Don't go by other gamelines when trying to figure out the past. Because you just need to go with "God created humans and the world" (Canon in some Vampire scenarios) and a lot of canon Garou history flies right out the window, starting with Adam, Lilith, Eve and Paradise, and things turn horribly messy.

              Now, in the scope of Mage there are a couple important differences between the modern age Umbral realms and the ancient past;
              Namely, that once upon a time before the Order of Reason rose to power, there was no classic space.
              Yes, people saw the stars up above, but what people would have seen with telescopes might have been quite different. They would not have seen cold dead planets, but strange worlds, visible to the naked (telescope-assisted) eye.
              There was no barrier up there, no void - there are tales of Mages simply building airships and literally flying upward into the Umbral ether, without any use of special magic aside of methods of getting up there.
              It was the Technocracy that supposedly spread the belief of "empty, cold dead space" and the planets in our solar system being equally hostile and empty worlds - but even then some glimpses could be caught, like the famous Mars canals, until the Void Engineers actually started 'Formatting Space', while scientists started debunking those last traces.

              The disbelief along with the VE's efforts combined, along with the growing gauntlet between the normal realm and the Umbra was what turned that into a reality, and a lot of things people once saw up there are either gone or simply hidden behind the gauntlet now.

              But once upon a time, all you needed was an airship to get up there, or even just a misstep in the earthly realm; Wether outer planets like Pluto actually already existed or not, is pretty much up to the ST.

              As for Earth, it can safely be presumed that shallowings were much, much, much more common. The various folklore stories about descents into the underworld (especially the greek ones) or slipping into otherworldly areas are are famous examples of even mundanes and semi-mundanes stepping into the Umbral realms.
              Except in Vampire they are stories and myths and we don’t know exactly how they happened, like demon reveals Caine and Abel turned out to be younger then Seth and were the last children of Adam and Eve and thus born after humanity spread, which would explain a lot of gaps in the story. Lilith story has other gods. And even in the Book of Nod and Eryces Fragment they theorize it was Adam that Banished Caine to Nod. So so far no contradiction to the other line because Vampire rarely shows actual history only Theory. Demon and Werewolf and Kindred of the East have actual 1st hand accounts or stated fact.


              It is a time for great deeds!

              Comment


              • #8
                To state that something it's just a theory and thus can be false or rumor doesn't make it immune to contradiction, it merely implies that a contradiction it's possible, and perhaps to be expected. Like stating that I'm going to lie doesn't transform my lie in truth

                Amen that in the case of Demon it shares the Judeo/Christian-ish cosmology of Vampire and thus it's almost 100% compatible with the Noddist view - there being "other gods" (could've been demons) it's far from accepting the whole package of Werewolf canon within yours

                However, I agree with the feeling that Vampire doesn't relly so much in it's Lore. Mainly because the idea that it's all false it's ingrained in the whole concept of the Jyhad (wheels within wheels, everything it's a conspiration of the elders).

                Purists of the canon would disagree, of course...but the Book of Nod it's blatantly stated to be a copy that was most likely modified, and all it's contents are IOC. It's peculiar that a lot of fans defend it as the holly cow of Vampire, when there's so much to doubt about it. I mean, if one doesn't want to accept it, the exit door it's right there.

                And in my opinion adding Demon Lore DOES hurt vampire's freedom in that regards. For instance, there have been theories that if Caine it's the 1rst generation, there has to be an older vampire that would be the progenitor (the Canon makes an odd use of the word "generation"). That's just a fan theory, and it's based on pure wordplay, but it's in principle possible because, as stated, the Book of Nod could be wrong or fake. However taking Demon witnesses as the revealed truth disproves that fan theory completely.
                Last edited by Aleph; 07-05-2019, 08:38 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                  It's peculiar that a lot of fans defend it as the holly cow of Vampire, when there's so much to doubt about it. I mean, if one doesn't want to accept it, the exit door it's right there.
                  I think that's to be expected. You have to pay money to read the Book of Nod; making it irrelevant garbage would be a massive letdown. It's very existence implies that it's worthwhile.

                  Plus, the book of Nod isn't scripture, it was written by a single group of writers who as authors would have had a somewhat coherent vision of what they wanted to imply.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    Plus, the book of Nod isn't scripture, it was written by a single group of writers who as authors would have had a somewhat coherent vision of what they wanted to imply.
                    Oh, they know what they wanted to say, but it's much more important what's explicit in the BoN: It's explicitly written IOC . It's explicitly stated to be a collection of fragments collected by conspiranoid vampire researchers.

                    Fictional treatises written by fictional characters can't ever be wrong?

                    HERE it's where you can find the famus (and canon) "unreliable narrator" of WoD...not because the Authors are unreliable narrators (perish the thought), but because the Authors are implying that what is written it's unreliable. They are implying that the contents of the BoN are unreliable from the point they talk about it as a collection of notes taken by scholars.

                    I'm all for separating canon from headcanon but calling the IOC talk of the book of nod, that's put in doubt even within the fiction, as certain canon...it's pushing it.

                    I think that's to be expected. You have to pay money to read the Book of Nod; making it irrelevant garbage would be a massive letdown. It's very existence implies that it's worthwhile.
                    If all that's written in the BoN was canonically proven to be false beyond reasonable doubt, I would agree. Otherwise I disagree.

                    There's a gray area between "proven true" and "proven false", that's where it's not proven. While you're in that area it's useful as fuel for stories and as something that's believed to be true IOC. It's MORE useful if you're not forced to use it​ by the Noddist police.

                    Besides, that's a completely OOC reason that should have nothing to do with it's canon veracity. "It's true because I paid for it" has never prevented retcons or absurd contradictions to take place.
                    Would you feel scammed if what the BoN implies was canonically contradicted?. Well, I can understand your pain in that case, but unfortunately the Book of Nod it's a work of fiction, and thus every word of it it's 100% fake. More so, it's an imaginary book within a real book: I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of examples of works inside fictional works being fake. I very much doubt a court would rule in your favor if BoN get's contradicted somewhere.

                    Do you think all Vampire text contradicting what's implied by the Book of Nod as aberrations and lies?, would you be deeply offended if an ST decides to play, say, with Ophidian cosmology as true?. It's Ophidian Lore "headcanon" in spite that it's published in a canon clanbook, that you also need to pay to read?
                    Last edited by Aleph; 07-05-2019, 01:11 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                      Do you think all Vampire text contradicting the Book of Nod as aberrations and lies?, would you be deeply offended if an ST decides to play, say, with Ophidian cosmology as true?.
                      I have no idea what Ophidian Cosmology is.

                      But let me back up a little. I'm not saying I agree with that. My point was more about you saying it's peculiar. I'm saying it was extremely predictable.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Michael View Post
                        But let me back up a little. I'm not saying I agree with that. My point was more about you saying it's peculiar. I'm saying it was extremely predictable.
                        Oh, I understand now. Ok, it was predictable, I agree.

                        I have no idea what Ophidian Cosmology is.
                        Maybe it's not refered by that name. I was speaking of all the Lore backing the Path of Sutekh in Revised.

                        The Aeons, Antediluvians being originally "Solar Gods" (well, Aeons with Ra as their superior). Set being the first one condemned to darkness for his rebelion against Ra and thus the first and most important "vampire" God, if I'm not wrong (maybe I'm confusing some details).

                        It's an understatement to say that it's not the most likely canon truth (It contradicts a lot of things. Also, Setites saying that Set it's boss...what's new under the moon?), but I like that it's at least possible and has inspired some
                        Last edited by Aleph; 07-05-2019, 02:02 PM.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X