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Thoughts about Mage 5th

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  • Thoughts about Mage 5th

    So it has been announced that WtA will be getting a 5th edition. It should appear in 2021, or about 8 years after WtA 20th appeared on the market. The surprise here is not the appearance of WtA 5th - capitalism demands it. The (possibly small) surprise here is that the product will be developed by Hunters Entertainment. This arguably sets up an interesting trend; Modifius owns the IP, but contracts work on the lines to other companies. Onyx Path handles most of the VtM line. Now Hunters Entertainment will probably be handling most of the WtA line.

    Say a MtA appears in 2023 (or 8 years after MtA 20th appeared on the market). But like VtM and WtA it is mostly handled by a company other than Modifius.

    What company would you want to handle the line? Why?

  • #2
    Modiphius don't own the WOD IPs, Paradox Entertainment do, and they license the IPs to others.


    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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    • #3
      Fine. Who would you like Paradox to turn the Mage IP over to for MtA 5th?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
        Fine. Who would you like Paradox to turn the Mage IP over to for MtA 5th?
        Would Love tô see onyx Path continue their work on mage

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        • #5
          ...In an edition that isn't like V5..

          Look, Mage is an Esoteric game. Mage is the game you can begin playing after three to thirty games of Vampire or Werewolf if you're lucky enough to find a storyteller. Mage requires some understanding of metaphysics and a capability to get abstract with the powers you've got. Even beyond getting writers that understand what mage is about and having them convert the game; V5 has the least regard for metaphysics and abstract usage of power. Much of it's design is -Game First, Story secondary- and that just doesn't do when you're trying to work with paradigms your character is supposed to believe in. You just can't make a M5 like V5 (Well, I'd argue V5 is wrong anyway, but M5 would definitely be moreso!)


          For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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          • #6
            I don't think we will see it before 2025.

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            • #7
              Even so, who do you want to handle the IP?

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              • #8
                Personally, I'd HIGHLY prefer it if OnyxPath continued work on the IP for several reasons;

                * They already have good relations with Satyr - who was lead dev for 2nd, Sorcerors Crusade AND M20. He just knows all the inside-outs of the setting, and even if Revised did a controversial hard turn in a different direction, even Revised was influenced by all that came before it. And even if Satyr isn't the one who is going to lead dev it in any way, OP can easily consult with him.

                * Onyx Path just does good books, hands down. If not influenced too much by Paradox (oh the Pun Potential...), they have shown to be utterly capable of handling oWoD in all regards

                * Mage is a gameline that *heavily* relies on philosophical lore-knowledge and having a feel for what it's supposed to be, how Magick works, and what the headspace of it all is. It requires heavy investment. It is a gameline that can easily be fucked up by changes that might seem Like A Good Idea At The Time to somebody without much experience with it. Likewise, I think 'streamlining' it in any regard would not affect it positively - IMO. More straightforward examples and good tables? Sure. Simplifying its mechanics away from the freeform Magick system we have? No.
                Onyx Path and their hired writers that worked on M20 *have* that experience. If a different company touches it, and people who possibly never touched Mage much try to develop for it...things might get so much harder to pull off right. It *could* be a refreshing change to have new pairs of eyes working on it, of course - and it *could* get pulled off right. But the risk would increase as much as any possible reward.
                Last edited by Ambrosia; 12-16-2019, 03:48 AM.


                cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                  * They already have good relations with Satyr - who was lead dev for 2nd, Sorcerors Crusade AND M20. He just knows all the inside-outs of the setting, and even if Revised did a controversial hard turn in a different direction, even Revised was influenced by all that came before it. And even if Satyr isn't the one who is going to lead dev it in any way, OP can easily consult with him.
                  This is everything I dread about Mage 5. Mage desperately needs an entirely fresh set of hands to make it a game and a setting that can attract anyone who isn't a millennia-old mage grognard.

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                  • #10
                    M20 was such a mess, I'm really not sure who I'd give it too.


                    For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                      This is everything I dread about Mage 5. Mage desperately needs an entirely fresh set of hands to make it a game and a setting that can attract anyone who isn't a millennia-old mage grognard.

                      If you want something that isn't MtAsc, Awakening is right over there.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        M20 was such a mess, I'm really not sure who I'd give it too.

                        A mess? Nah, its awesome just like W20, Wr20, V20 and C20.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                          Even so, who do you want to handle the IP?

                          OPP with Phil Brucato at the helm, otherwise it'll turn into the same mess that V5 is.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ambrosia
                            Personally, I'd HIGHLY prefer it if OnyxPath continued work on the IP for several reasons;

                            * They already have good relations with Satyr - who was lead dev for 2nd, Sorcerors Crusade AND M20. He just knows all the inside-outs of the setting, and even if Revised did a controversial hard turn in a different direction, even Revised was influenced by all that came before it. And even if Satyr isn't the one who is going to lead dev it in any way, OP can easily consult with him.

                            * Onyx Path just does good books, hands down. If not influenced too much by Paradox (oh the Pun Potential...), they have shown to be utterly capable of handling oWoD in all regards

                            * Mage is a gameline that *heavily* relies on philosophical lore-knowledge and having a feel for what it's supposed to be, how Magick works, and what the headspace of it all is. It requires heavy investment. It is a gameline that can easily be fucked up by changes that might seem Like A Good Idea At The Time to somebody without much experience with it. Likewise, I think 'streamlining' it in any regard would not affect it positively - IMO. More straightforward examples and good tables? Sure. Simplifying its mechanics away from the freeform Magick system we have? No.
                            Onyx Path and their hired writers that worked on M20 *have* that experience. If a different company touches it, and people who possibly never touched Mage much try to develop for it...things might get so much harder to pull off right. It *could* be a refreshing change to have new pairs of eyes working on it, of course - and it *could* get pulled off right. But the risk would increase as much as any possible reward.
                            That.

                            I agree 100%
                            .
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                            .
                            Also:

                            I think that the perceived "complexity" of Mage from the PoV of newbies steems from how simple, yet vague and loose, it's core rules are...Mage rules are a combination very, very, loose crunch and a whole lot of guesswork and wishful thinking:

                            The Sphere System core "crunch" can be largely reduced to "raw damage", "-/+ 3 to difficulty", and a table that allows everything with guidelines as concrete as "whatever you think it's weak/whatever you think it's strong"...and because this isn't very helpful, it has a lot of "side-rules" to control different kinds of very specific stuff (I.E: M20 rules about illusions), coupled with A LOT of exceptions (I.E: Rotes that have their own rules) to allow things that fall outside the cracks of that missmatched box.

                            And that's why only "grognards" (as Kammerer puts it) understand it...and even that it's up for debate: I've been reading Mage stuff for more than a decade, and I think it would be hubris to say I *get* it completely...

                            The whole problem, I think, stems from vagueness, not complexity...Mage certainly doesn't need simpler mechanics for the uninitiated, what Mage needs it's to be clearer.

                            And I do believe Onyx Path, seeing their products, what they did with M20 and what they did with Awakening too (perhaps more so, because M20 its largely a compilation, even if it has some cool new rules), has what it takes do complex (yet freeform) rules respecting the philosophy of the game.

                            That's not to say they're the only ones that can do it, just that I would be inclined to believe they can...
                            Last edited by Aleph; 12-16-2019, 08:35 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Honestly? At this point, I’m not sure that there will be a Mage 5th - for some of the reasons outlined above and a few others.

                              Truth is that Mage is the most complicated of the classic WoD game lines, and it’s going to be an undertaking for any new company to take it on and develop it in such a way that can bring the old fanbase with it, while also trying to capture a new one. If Modiphius (or anyone else) had chosen to build a continuing WoD line, rather than just take stewardship of Vampire alone, then it may have been worth the development - because big core books, would spike sales each time they were released. As soon as it transpired that Werewolf: The Apocalypse was going to be released by another company, Hunters Entertainment, instead it became increasingly unlikely that anyone would take Mage on as a single game line - it’s a much more difficult game line to market I feel.

                              Both Vampire and Werewolf are also easier to develop multimedia platforms for video games, primarily. Mage would probably require much more exposition to explain concepts and gameplay - and there has always been a problem, in my view, that the background and setting assumptions of Mage have always been a bit incongruous with the more classically gothic Vampire and Werewolf games. Moreover, M20 continues to be in live development for The Onyx Path and is a successful line for them. I’m expecting that it will continue to have releases for at least the next few years. On this basis, I’m not sure we’ll ever see Mage 5 (or Wraith 5, or Changeling 5). A more likely line, that could see happening, would be a separate Hunter line - where you play agents of the Second Inquisition - again, a much more straightforward game to market.

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