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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    In at least one of the discussions for M20 Brucato said it is possible both the Technocracy and Traditions had failed and the Nephandi were winning.
    Yep. His politics are quite outspoken, but he argued online that recent developments in the world meant that the Nephandi had taken over as the chief antagonist in his current vision of Mage.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    The modern world makes a lot more sense when you realise the Technocracy lost the Ascension War.
    In at least one of the discussions for M20 Brucato said it is possible both the Technocracy and Traditions had failed and the Nephandi were winning.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Marko Markoko View Post
    What can be done to encourage Atlas to be granted/take the opportunity?

    Honestly, it is all wishful thinking at this point. We don't know if Paradox will turn the IP over to someone, and we have no say in to whom.
    Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 12-24-2019, 02:03 PM.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    Any of you guys feel that the Idea of the Technoracy kind of Outdated.

    Adding to this, they also started as everything the writers saw as The Man/keeping people down no matter how contradictory.

    This.

    Science, governments, corporations, technology and knowledge bad. Flowers, crystals, steampunk wannabes and 1337 h@xx0rz good.

    Or to put it another way (and I say this with love, because I'm to a large extent describing myself):

    Us In The 1990s: "The mainstream scientific and technological paradigm is a tool of fascism controlled by the Man to keep us down but with new technology and by embracing traditional ideas that were suppressed by a monolithic establishment we can create a better world where the truth is democratised and owned by the people."

    Us In The Late 2010s: "Help! Why aren't people accepting the scientific consensus on things like climate change and vaccines?! How did a completely unregulated digital world of total personal freedom lead to massive amounts of power accumulating in the hands of a tiny number of incredibly wealthy individuals?! Why can't we all agree on basic facts any more?!"

    The modern world makes a lot more sense when you realise the Technocracy lost the Ascension War.
    There is a strong sense of this.

    The criticism that the Technocracy, despite being a patritional force in the WoD, actually being the good, rational guys, is not new though. People have criticised the game in the past for exactly this reason, and it’s probably why having the Technocracy become playable options emerged. On the other hand, one could consider the Mages of the original nine Traditions to be monsters of sorts - akin to vampires, werewolves of other games - albeit reality-perverting ‘monsters’ instead of the more obvious sorts. Mages are the equivalent of Frankenstein, a modern prometheus who arrogantly thinks he can play God, or Faust, a person who sells his soul for knowledge and power. Looking over the archetypes, it’s not hard to shift the perspective that the Mages you play are bad guys.

    But beyond this, yes, I could see a shift in emphasis in the power structure of the game - and again, the notion that Mage could be split into two different games. You could have the classic Mage game, where you play modern day wizards, witches and mad scientists (as is), and then you could create another game based on playing agents who are trying to hold reality together against the forces of sorcery and the unknown. The Technocacy could be what Tradition Mages refer to, but the Technocracy may call themselves something more sympathetic or neutral sounding.


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  • Konradleijon
    replied
    Any of you guys feel that the Idea of the Technoracy kind of Outdated.

    Adding to this, they also started as everything the writers saw as The Man/keeping people down no matter how contradictory.

    This.

    Science, governments, corporations, technology and knowledge bad. Flowers, crystals, steampunk wannabes and 1337 h@xx0rz good.

    Or to put it another way (and I say this with love, because I'm to a large extent describing myself):

    Us In The 1990s: "The mainstream scientific and technological paradigm is a tool of fascism controlled by the Man to keep us down but with new technology and by embracing traditional ideas that were suppressed by a monolithic establishment we can create a better world where the truth is democratised and owned by the people."

    Us In The Late 2010s: "Help! Why aren't people accepting the scientific consensus on things like climate change and vaccines?! How did a completely unregulated digital world of total personal freedom lead to massive amounts of power accumulating in the hands of a tiny number of incredibly wealthy individuals?! Why can't we all agree on basic facts any more?!"

    The modern world makes a lot more sense when you realise the Technocracy lost the Ascension War.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marko Markoko
    replied
    What can be done to encourage Atlas to be granted/take the opportunity? I myself have contacts at Atlas. Not much influence (other than in Ars Magica), but I do have access to the top. Not sure how receptive they would be to the idea. The Ars community still hods a grudge over what White Wolf did to "their game". There is also some unknown story about how John Nephew managed to wrangle ownership of that game.

    There is a lot of mystery there. The point is that it may take some convincing. Both for Arlas and for WW/Paradox/whoever owns the thing nowadays. And it really boils down to $$$. Is Ascension still a viable property? Can it turn a profit in the modern market? How would it be marketed? How can the idea be made attractive to both companies concerned? Why would they want to consider it even? Is the game up for sale (or the license or whatever)? Who can they get to work on it?

    I am sure I could do it. Would take me a year, less if I had the right team. Or was part of such a team.

    Right now, neither party has any idea of this discussion or idea. And rightfully it can be chalked up to fan fantasy if they did know. And it may be a non issue. The thing is not for sale and/or the interest is not there.

    But there is always a way. I don't believe in the "no-win" scenario.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    The impact on other game lines is negligible.
    This, more or less. WtA heavily involved it, VtM did not involve it (mostly) and for WtO the material world was the Other World. But what happens to one line in splat need not happen to another splat.

    In terms of Traditions leaving, or a faction failing, the 9 Mystic Traditions have already failed and been defeated by the Technocracy.They just have not been destroyed to the last person. It does not matter if any of the individual Traditions leave their alliance. They failed.

    However, a lot of drama can come from a collapsing Technocracy.

    I hope Atlas get the IP, if Paradox doesn't give it to Modiphius.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Yeah, and it's failing miserably. I don't want Requiem/Forsaken/Awakening in my Masquerade/Apocalypse/Ascension. I want strong themes and a clash of ideas, rather than a shallow postmodern melting pot that allows anything.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Vysha View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. I made no claims that nWW has the same people behind it, only that they were formed with the idea of "One WOD". Nothing the current directors of the game licence have said indicates they have a different view. In fact, a quick lookover of their website seems to suggest, though I'll grant you not outright state, they plan for the World of Darkness to still be one unified world. Just like oWW had it.
    Well it’s a goal outline of several years ago, and it’s not really relevant. Having ‘One World of Darkness’ was mostly in reference to not having a division between ‘Old’ and ’New’ World of Darkness games, which was why they changed the New World of Darkness to Chronicles of Darkness. The new line of games, from V5 onwards as it was then, was meant to supersede all the lines to a degree.

    However, in reference to whether Mage focusses on the Umbra or not, it really makes no difference. The negotiation between White Wolf as they are now and whoever, if ever, takes over the license will establish what they want to do with Mage then. The Umbra could be more limited to Mages; it could be less. The impact on other game lines is negligible.



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  • Vysha
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post

    “nWW” as you described were disbanded and doesn’t exist anymore. The current WW team will want to ensure consistency over their WoD brand, but each different game line within it will be negotiated separately with each respective company.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. I made no claims that nWW has the same people behind it, only that they were formed with the idea of "One WOD". Nothing the current directors of the game licence have said indicates they have a different view. In fact, a quick lookover of their website seems to suggest, though I'll grant you not outright state, they plan for the World of Darkness to still be one unified world. Just like oWW had it.

    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    Moreover, the Umbra is already canon. The development that had the Avatar Storm restricting access for Mages to the Umbra occurred more than 20 years ago and has already since been overturned to a degree in M20 - which is also canon.
    M20 is canon insofar as a new edition of Mage isn't out. Just like elements of V20 were overwritten with V5, elements of M20 will be overwritten by M5. I've never hypothesized that umbral travel will absolutely be removed from the game, I've only said I could see a publisher choosing to remove it, or being forced to remove it by nWW, to focus more on street level games. I'd point to elements of (REDACTED GAME LINE) that have focused that game's current setting on less "out there" areas of that game's prior editions, but you have explicitly stated you don't want (REDACTED GAME LINE) mentioned. If I could mention (REDACTED GAME LINE) and use it along with hints at what W5 will contain/change as a guidepost for future game lines in the 5e WoD, I'd be able to posit quite a few possible changes. But I rather avoid arbitrary blacklistings from people when possible. Unless James Spader's involved, of course.

    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    If a new company came in to negotiate a new license for Mage and put on the table that they wanted to put a new emphasis on Umbral travel, it wouldn’t affect the other game lines at all, and could be a possibility.
    Sure they could. I never said they couldn't.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Vysha View Post

    I find it extremely unlikely that Mage will be spun off into a separate gameline from the One World of Darkness nWW claimed they wanted.
    “nWW” as you described were disbanded and doesn’t exist anymore. The current WW team will want to ensure consistency over their WoD brand, but each different game line within it will be negotiated separately with each respective company.

    Moreover, the Umbra is already canon. The development that had the Avatar Storm restricting access for Mages to the Umbra occurred more than 20 years ago and has already since been overturned to a degree in M20 - which is also canon.

    If a new company came in to negotiate a new license for Mage and put on the table that they wanted to put a new emphasis on Umbral travel, it wouldn’t affect the other game lines at all, and could be a possibility.

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  • CaptOtter
    replied
    Originally posted by Vysha View Post

    I find it extremely unlikely that Mage will be spun off into a separate gameline from the One World of Darkness nWW claimed they wanted.
    I agree with this sentiment. I've met very few WOD players that dislike crossover. It also doesn't make sense to eliminate the Umbra to make the game jibe better with the other major lines. Vampires don't really mix with anyone from a setting perspective as anything but antagonists (at least not the overwhelming majority of the time) because they're cursed, inhuman monsters that can only operate at night. Mage and Werewolf are a much more natural crossover, as they very can easily share a mutual enemy (Malfean Nephandi, BSDs, and the Wyrm writ large). Additionally, it will be easier for mages and Shifters to relate to one another, what with the fact that they, at a minimum, share the same biological needs, and are not barred from operating half of the day. That said, marginalizing the Umbra is precisely the opposite of what you would do to bring Mage closer to Werewolf (for which I would say the Umbra is indispensable—but hey, who knows what W5 will bring.)

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  • Vysha
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    If they have a separate line for Mage, with only loose connections to Vampire and Werewolf, then there is no reason why the Umbra can’t be an important element of the game. However, I would like some work to be done to ensure that the mystery of the Spirit Worlds is emphasised.
    I find it extremely unlikely that Mage will be spun off into a separate gameline from the One World of Darkness nWW claimed they wanted.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Vysha View Post

    Actually, that's probably how it would go, if the next publisher wants to limit umbral travel. I can see an argument being made about how access to umbral realms shifts the focus too far away from Earthly affairs, though I might not agree with it. So yeah, why wouldn't a publisher with that line of thinking just say "Spirit only lets you bring things across from the other side to Earth"?
    When the Umbra was 'cut off', which happened in the metaplot during the Masters of the Art sourcebook just before Mage Revised was released, it was due to the Technocracy nuking the Umbral worlds. In game terms, it meant characters would incur damage for Stepping Sideways, albeit not unsurmountable. In setting terms, it brought characters back down to Earth. There was aan Umbral sourcebook brought out for Mage Revised, down the line, but aspects of the Spirit Worlds were changed.

    The basic intent of this could be argued in different ways. There was a feeling that the WoD developers wanted closer interaction between lines - meaning that Mages needed to be more wholly integrated with the setting inhabited by vampires, werewolves, et al. Some felt that the umbral worlds were a bit twee - with characters able to gallivant across them in a way that made it feel like Spirit World Quest, with a new setting each week, rather than anything to do with the WoD.

    If they have a separate line for Mage, with only loose connections to Vampire and Werewolf, then there is no reason why the Umbra can’t be an important element of the game. However, I would like some work to be done to ensure that the mystery of the Spirit Worlds is emphasised.

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  • Vysha
    replied
    Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
    The Umbra might one of the most distinctive and fantastic parts of the Classic World of Darkness. I don't understand how it is that someone who got into Mage during second edition, and enjoyed it, would think the game would be better by functionally lacking an umbra--i.e., who played mage back in the day and said to themselves, "this game is great--except for like 60% of this game..."
    I'm not speaking to my own preferences. I'm stating an excuse I could see a potential M5 publisher using for limiting the Umbra.
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    IF We consider some of the Rumours from Werewolf, I'd imagine the Umbra is RELATIVELY Cut off but there are special areas you can access it. Rather than having a broad Gauntlet rating its something you can enter and exit from your magical/holy site.
    Yeah, I could see that being the case. In (redacted edition of redacted game), there was a real feel of guiding games down specific (though broadly paved) roads. Not so much a "one true way to play (Redacted)", but more "a handful of true ways to play (Redacted)" and they all seemed aimed at less fantastical themes and elements, for a more "grounded" game. Since the same oversight will be given to W5 and M5, I imagine a similar restriction on themes being present. Further limiting umbral travel is exactly where I imagine them looking to when considering where to narrow the focus.

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