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  • #61
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    And they haven't been distributed in shops well over a decade. Again, let's see if it's keeping its initial success, or not.
    Yes, they haven’t been distributed for a decade. Yes, the success of V5 was recorded over multiple quarters, and it remains Modiphius’ best selling game.

    Not much more people are loudly defending V5 either. Also, as others pointed out in other threads, its cheap to stand behind an "overall fanbase". Also, most people who don't like V5 just stopped interacting a while ago now. Alsoalso, some bias I could admit, but still, the bigger online groups are at best 50/50, more likely leaning V20. You can dismiss it as much as you want as "only a fraction.
    Well, if you shout loud enough with blinkers on it tends to lead to a limited view. Maybe most gamers don’t want to argue incessantly online with you? Most gamers just want to play the games they like. There is no real veracity in citing online sources, because for the most part they are just echo chambers.

    Ok, I didn't know that. Interesting. Considering V5 was largely outlined by him and Karim Muammar, that's telling a lot about how Paradox sees it.
    Karim Muammar remains with a role in Brand editing.

    You're still mixing up and being very inaccurate about the timeline, but whatever. I could dig up the early interviews and event recordings from the very beginning of the new WW, where the core ideas of V5 were already outlined, much before they brought in Matthew oficially on the team, or BJD got finalized. Even the first infamous playtest was before that.
    The whole process of making V5 was bigger than a few presentations, and it takes a long time to write games - through multiple drafts, and they don’t put all this material out for playtesting. Matthew didn’t design mechanics, he was writing lore. The playtesting occurred a long way down the line after the writing of text had been initiated.


    Yes, I stopped following the daily news considering WW, because of V5, so I don't know much about the recent staff changes. This has nothing to do about getting information about a new book without buying it. Regardless of who's leading it, I seriously doubt any fundamental changes will occur, untill a new edition.
    You keep saying this, but if you don’t follow the news you are just participating in hearsay.


    If they had, before his official involvement, I can't say anything about that. But I know it wasn't mentioned and that Martin and co. had a very specific vision from day one and V5 largely reflects that and not the V20 material's natural growth.
    I refer you to the comment made before. The writing of material is a longer process than playtesting. Whether they announced it or not to you personally, Matthew Dawkins was one of a number of writers involved over time, and his contribution was critical to what they were trying to do.


    It doesn't really deserve an answer, but for the sake of others: no, I don't expect anything groundbreaking in the upcoming Player's Guide, that would erase my issues with V5, even if with alternative rules. I expect minor tweaks. If it turns out differently. well, I'm open to changing my oppinion.
    I think we have conclusively established here that you are not. In fact, the evidence is clear from that very statement.

    And for the last time: I likely won't, based on V5 and what we know so far about W5. I don't like the direction and I don't think it'll change radically at this point, even if Matthew is at the helm. I ould be surprised, it could be that I'll like W5, or M5. It's not a principle on my side not buying anything from them. It's a decision based on experience so far, that1s saying I'm not their target audience and that our visions about WoD differs. That's all. If new books will contradict that, I'll buy them. But I won't do it blindly and I'm not expecting any of it to turn out to my liking.
    Then don’t play it, and let other people enjoy it.
    Last edited by Trippy; 12-19-2019, 05:25 PM.

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    • #62
      [QUOTE=Trippy;n1355897]Each edition was a product of it’s time and addressed issues highlighted at the time. V5 is no different, but as a mark of natural evolution - it’s the best edition./QUOTE]

      I disagree. Leave it at that. "Best" is highly subjective. It's the best for you and what you want from the game. It's absolutely not for me and what I want from it. Being the most current has nothing to do with it.

      That’s your perspective, but your experience from your own account starts with Revised. This being the edition specifically designed to include more stuff in a cataloguing manner - which was continued and expanded on with V20. V1 and V2, by this standard, were also limited - although they expanded with supplements. This seems likely the trend with V5.
      If considering only the 2e corebook, yes. But again this is an old argument. The Sabbat, elders and such are playable options since 1992. Revised just put most of the fudamental things into the corebook and thus, gave a much broader view on the setting and gave more player options and material for stories, with much fewer page count.

      You are picking arbitrary stats out of the air and stating them as facts.
      No, I'm talking about actual facts, like when the first Player's Guide, which included rules for elders and the First Sabbat guide came out. Both was within the first two years of the game ond these things were staple elements of the game since then.

      There is no objectivity on this issue.
      Yes, there is, you just don't like it.

      There is always going to a selective process on what you include or don’t include in any book. V5 remains as a continuation of everything written previously - but it doesn’t have to cram everything into one book.
      While still being almost twice the size of the Revised core. Congratulations.

      As about continuation. We really won't agree on that. You see it as that, I see it as a reboot. We won't change each other's mind on this and it's really pointless to argue further.

      If it’s all down to me as a teacher, then you can take my educated assessment that V5 is perfectly fine as a tool and a source for teaching new players.
      A good GM could teach new players using the 3e Shadowrun corebook, loving the book back and forth, the world, the system and using it well. That doesn1t change the fact that it's a clunky system and a horribly edited book.

      The Revised book was bloated in my view.
      With half the size of V5. If your only consideration of "bloat" is included options, well, that's your oppinion. For me, it gave a much more complete perspective on the setting in a much more concise manner and it was a much better corebook. You're free to think otherwise.

      V20 even more so.
      Yeah, as it was really mostly a mechanical compliation, aimed at existing fans.

      They were also reaching out to lower audiences - by design in the case of V20, and by virtue of declining sales figures in the case of VRev.
      Revised sold very well at the time. It dwindled toward the end. It got translated into many languages, with novels and sourcebooks, including my native Hungarian. It introduced countless people to the game.

      Good.
      Never said otherwise. It's not a bad game, it's just not for everyone and not for every VtM fan. D&D 4e wasn't a bad game, for some it's the best edition of D&D ever published and still, many didn't like it. FATE, or PbtA aren't bad systems, still, I don't like them.


      Modiphius don’t have a stake in Bloodlines 2. They are publishing, and now developing the tabletop game.
      Modiphius is already involved in V5, not a newcomer.


      V5 has outsold all of these, and it’s being supported and developed now. I don’t care what is happening in 4-6 years.
      What? Outsold D&D 5e? VtM had a loud comeback it was on the charts, but it's far from being market-leading. As for V5 itself, we'll see. Nothing stays forever. VtM will get a new edition eventually. We'll see how soon.

      Were you there to experience it when it started?
      No, but since there wasn't an existing WoD fanbase before V1, I think it's a pretty safe bet, that it was controversial on a larger scale. Which V5 really isn't. It was politically controversial due to some idiots out there and wrong communication on WW's part. It's not as culturally groundbreaking as V1 was. Hell, even most of the new elements were existed in other games well before.

      And maybe it’s the case that the 'existing fanbase’, at least in some parts, has become a bit comfortable and conservative and needed a bit of a shake up?
      Liking what exist and wanting new stuff but preserving it is an equally valid stance as wanting something new and a major shake-up. Needed? Who decides that?


      As far as you can tell......
      Oh, I forgot you're the only one with complete omniscience about the "overall WoD fanbase". I apologize, my bad.


      I think it’s sad that people can’t get out of their own bubble and move on if they don’t like something. I mean we were talking about Mage, or a potential new Mage, and all we’ve now got is an invasion of people complaining about V5. It’s like an obsession.
      Back at you. You couldn't resist to go into this lengthy and pointless argument, defending the valor of V5 over all filthy naysayers. For me, I did exactly that, moved on. I didn't follow WW, or frequent these boards. I didn't care about V5 for roughly half a year. I've seen the news about W20 and came to see, what's up? Yes, I said my mind about M5, because you know what? That's what people do on the internet. I'd have stopped at that, on my part.

      Also you're saying people should absolutely abandon what they like, if the current trend, or direction is not for their tastes. You're in no position to demand that. I can't and don't want to stop you liking V5 and being excited about W5, or M5, but you can't say anyone to just shut up and go away, if they think otherwise.



      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Trippy View Post
        Yes, they haven’t been distributed for a decade. Yes, the success of V5 was recorded over multiple quarters, and it remains Modiphius’ best selling game.
        No wonder, it's their biggest name IP.

        Anyhow, the last report I found was of spring 2019. on that, V5 was 4th, after D&D. Starfinder and Star Wars. That was before GenCon and thus, before Pathfinder 2e, Shadowrun 6e, or Cyberpunk RED, and some other names. It'll be interesting to see if it maintains its position among the top five.

        Well, if you shout loud enough with blinkers on it tends to lead to a limited view.
        And you're totally, absolutely cetain that you aren't doing it?

        Maybe most gamers don’t want to argue incessantly online with you?
        I don't even post on most of those stuff.

        Most gamers just want to play the games they like. There is no real veracity in citing online sources, because for the most part they are just echo chambers.
        Ah, yes, but again, you have a perfect grasp on the "overall fanbase", which consists of a silent majority, all of them totally on board with V5. an't you imagine a version, where the online division just reflects the bigger picture?

        Karim Muammar remains with a role in Brand editing.
        Well, he never was as controversial as a figure as Martin, who had got most of the heat. Lot of the times unfairly so, I might add.


        The whole process of making V5 was bigger than a few presentations, and it takes a long time to write games - through multiple drafts, and they don’t put all this material out for playtesting. Matthew didn’t design mechanics, he was writing lore. The playtesting occurred a long way down the line after the writing of text had been initiated.
        So, you're assuming, he secretely worked on the V5 lore even before the first presentations, where the base ideas were already on board and that he was writing for them and participated in the development far earlier than they brought him in officially. If you have so much inner info, good for you. But if it happened that way, I don't see the point them not being open about his involvement that early on, as they were with every other member of the team.


        You keep saying this, but if you don’t follow the news you are just participating in hearsay.
        Reading reviews and discussions about new stuff is a bit much than "hearsay". Also, edition tend not to change direction radically in the middle of their run, so it's a pretty safe assumption.


        I refer you to the comment made before. The writing of material is a longer process than playtesting. Whether they announced it or not to you personally, Matthew Dawkins was one of a number of writers involved over time, and his contribution was critical to what they were trying to do.
        For me personally? No. At a pont, they announced that they're bringing him into the team. It wasn't at the beginning and again, most of the baselines were laid down early on. I could only refer back to myself, if he was involved, why keep it secret until much later on?


        I think we have conclusively established here that you are not. In fact, the evidence is clear from that very statement.
        It might be real hard intentionally misinterpreting what people are saying this consistently.


        Then don’t play it, and let other people enjoy it.
        Well, I didn't say anyone to not play it. I didn't burn their books. I'm not even saying it's trash and such. If other people not liking the stuff you're liking detracts this much from your enjoyment of it, then, that's your concern, not mine. If you're that sensitive, I'm sorry, but you still don't get to tell me that I can't voice my oppinion.



        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • #64
          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          He wrote a pretty good assessment of what could happen with M5, I had to google the guy he was comparing fashions too and he was so bang on it hurts.
          "He" who? Brucato? Will someone post a link to this assessment, or at least indicate where it can be found?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by PMárk View Post
            Well, I didn't say anyone to not play it. I didn't burn their books. I'm not even saying it's trash and such. If other people not liking the stuff you're liking detracts this much from your enjoyment of it, then, that's your concern, not mine. If you're that sensitive, I'm sorry, but you still don't get to tell me that I can't voice my oppinion.
            No, but what you are doing here is harassing people for daring to say anything positive about V5, and the potential of M5 - which, unbelievably was the point of this thread. It’s not an opinion that is valuable if we are discussing something off topic, and where you have no intention of playing these games in any case.

            Moreover, they aren’t going to stop making them just because you keep complaining. There are too many other people that are happy to keep buying them and playing them, whether you like it or not.

            A mature thing to do would be to accept that it isn’t a game for you, move on to discussing what you actually want to play and let others discuss things without your harassment. I’ll leave that with you.

            I actually started itemising all your points, noting a bunch of circular arguments along the way, but considering we are now doing double posts of about 10+ argument bullet points each now - I think it’s worth saying stop.

            Merry Christmas.
            Last edited by Trippy; 12-19-2019, 06:26 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Trippy View Post
              No, but what you are doing here is harassing people for daring to say anything positive about V5, and the potential of M5 - which, unbelievably was the point of this thread. It’s not an opinion that is valuable if we are discussing something off topic, and where you have no intention of playing these games in any case.
              As the person who started this thread, I agree with this statement 3000. It is one thing to use V5 in context for discussion of M5, in so far as someone other than Paradox might handle it. It is another thing to largely derail a M5 thread with complaints about the existence of V5. This much bitter resentment over the existence of V5 here is just thread-jacking. It is boring, and in the wrong place - take it to the Vampire forum, where it at least belong even if it will remain boring.

              To reiterate, Atlas Games and Green Ronin are both interesting possibilities.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                To reiterate, Atlas Games and Green Ronin are both interesting possibilities.
                I almost forgot about discussing that! Atlas Games’ potential we’ve had a brief discussion over, but how do you think Green Ronin would handle it?

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                • #68
                  I honestly do not know. It depends on what Paradox demands, or set in terms of others handling the IP. How flexible is Paradox going to be? We might learn more, in terms of this kind of thing, when WtA5 drops and we can compare it to VtM5. VtM5 change a lot of setting elements, and changed the game mechanics. It sounds like they will be doing the same thing with WtA5.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                    I honestly do not know. It depends on what Paradox demands, or set in terms of others handling the IP. How flexible is Paradox going to be? We might learn more, in terms of this kind of thing, when WtA5 drops and we can compare it to VtM5. VtM5 change a lot of setting elements, and changed the game mechanics. It sounds like they will be doing the same thing with WtA5.
                    The thing I think about is how Hunger is a central mechanic now for Vampire, whether they would do something akin to it for Rage (Werewolf) and Paradox (Mage), respectively. In the case of Rage, I think it would actually be quite a dramatic change for Werewolf - it would mean they would have less control over when they shapeshift. In the case of Mage, I’m not sure how it would work.

                    Regarding Green Ronin, I don’t know if they’d invest in a game that wasn’t run as their house system and they haven’t really done anything like a WoD game before. Weirdly, however, it would be....interesting.... to see them make Mage as a Mutants & Masterminds setting. Maybe.

                    Thing is, neither Modiphius or Hunters Entertainment were who you’d pick to make and develop a WoD game - and yet they did. It may be someone we wouldn’t expect. I’d still hope for Atlas though for the reasons given above.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      This isn’t anything like a 'V5-sort of direction’ that was taken, and obviously it’s an insult against a game that isn’t understood or appreciated.
                      Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, but in order to explain my comment, I'll say that it seems hard to dispute that V5 went well out of its way to remove the old vampiric power structures from the game, remove "elders" as an element (at least as they were), turn the power scale of the game as a whole down a number of notches, make the mechanics more volatile and unpredictable (which it turn skews against far-reaching intrigue, because intrigues tend to require the ability to plan around reliably being able to do certain things within certain time frames,) and overall narrowed the potential scope of what the game can be to more "street-level" fare. I am not saying, and have not said, that V5 is a bad game--it has its fans, and what it sets out to do, it does well. Obviously it's not my bag of tea.

                      Having said that, and relating this back to the question of what M5 could be--obviously my speculation was satirical in nature in that it takes things to an absurd degree, but how much more "street-level" and scaled back power-wise can Mage get after Revised? Revised already dumped the masters; it already had the default faction (traditions) on the back foot; it made accessing the umbra incredibly punitive (or outright inaccessible), which kept people on Earth more often (i.e., the mean streets, where the landlords, oppressive middle-managers, and tax collectors are); and it made flashy magic very costly (in terms of Paradox) thereby discouraging the sort of "high adventure" (e.g., trading fireballs with bad guys during a car chase through the Lincoln tunnel, etc.), which had previously been a not-discouraged part of the game judging by the 2nd ed. source books that explicitly provided for all manner of out there stuff. Hell, before Revised, mages could just say 'peace out' to the planet and go fight the Technocracy (or Nephandi) for resources around the moons of a gas giant in the deep umbra. Obviously that's not a possibility in Revised-as-written.

                      So, to restate: if Revised was already the version of mage where you were supposed to be really concerned about making your rent, paying your student loans, holding down a job, not getting arrested, and not having the old tried-and-true power structures to aid in magical development, and not getting flung into the super fantastical political maneuverings of immortals... how do you recreate M5 around the V5 ethos? How much more grassroots/DIY/punk rock can it get? I mean, the answer is less magic, more paradox, less magical society, and more "cops".

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      if you are going to do a new edition, it’s worth considering fresh ideas.
                      I think that's a pretty anodyne statement--the question is, at what point have you changed the game so much that it ceases to be the game it was in anything but name(s)? You could boil down the premise of any one of these games to a large degree, and what you would end up with eventually could be "a game a vampires/werewolves/vampires in a version of the modern day world slightly harsher and more vile than our own". I mean that IS an accurate description of V:tM/W:tA/M:tA. The question is whether, if you make a game that has only that boiled down recitation (and some proper nouns from the IP) in common with the old games... to what extent have you actually made a new version of the old game, as opposed to an entirely new game that merely pays homage to the old?

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      For me, I just don’t think it will happen, partially because there will always be fans that are entrenched in one particular edition or another and it takes a lot of marketing to establish that there is a wider audience to make it worthwhile. Mage is a complex game to sell, and the existing fanbase has a history of volatility and conflict.
                      As long as they're happy to occupy the 4th or 5th spot in the pen and paper RPG rankings, the financial incentive will exist to make Mage--if only to have some source materials to point at when they shop the IP around to movie and TV studios.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      This isn’t original to Brucato of course - it was written into the central premise of the 1st edition by Stewart Weick, before Brucato came along.
                      I realize that, but, since Stewart Weick literally can't do the job, I'm on the Brucato Bus. His hand is all over the game, and his work in M20 demonstrates he's only gotten better with age.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      I would say that the notion of paradigm and consensual reality are central to any conceptualization of a Mage: The Ascension game, but there are still plenty of different ways in which this could be approached.
                      I would argue that there is no way to approach those topics that do not involve having a working knowledge of (capital-"M") Metaphysics, ontology, and epistemology. And that's not even getting into the fact that writing up the grab bag of instruments and cultural traditions that could act as lenses for magic requires someone with a more than passing understanding of religion, anthropology, humanities, history, (I mean, basically the liberal arts), and the temperament to draw upon those areas with sensitivity.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      The 20th Anniversary books were like ‘Greatest Hits’ albums, but V5 was like a classic album remastered.
                      This is a puzzling statement to me, but I can only assume that it's an honest and genuine statement, so I'll say that I don't see how this analogy works at all. If anything, the 20th anniversary editions cannot simply be 'greatest hits' because they made entirely new rules materials not present in other editions--greatest hits are, by their very nature, not thing that you would change over time. People flip their shit when they buy a "greatest hits" album, and all the songs are re-recordings (often because the artist got a bum deal early in their career and just can't get ownership of their old masters; I digress). The 20th anniversary editions are moreso "remasters" (though it even goes a little beyond that), because they are, in fact, changing and polishing things. The notes in this or that riff don't change, but they're clarified, the levels readjusted, the noise reduced/signal enhanced. V5 (the only 5th Ed. book so far, so we must talk about it,) is at best a "remix", or more aptly, a successor band that took what the first band did and ran with it; e.g., the musical relationship between, say, Black Sabbath and black metal; The Clash and other 80's two-tone bands, and the pop-punk/ska bands of the 90's; Krs-One and literally any rapper who has ever rapped about serious political matters; ETC.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      It’s also a point that the basic reason why Modiphius decided to buy the license and keep V5 going after White Wolf were dissolved, was because it was their best selling title. That is, it sold more than Star Trek or Conan or anything else on their books.
                      You have to ask yourself about the extent to which the sales figures, such as they were/are, were the product of people just loving the game, and how much of it was due to the amount of money spent on marketing, and actually getting the book onto store shelves (something OPP has never ever been able to do; doing all their business directly with fans--the most niche of markets), or the fact that it was the new and shiny thing and were capitalizing on an established brand. For the owners of the IP, they don't need to make a lot of money on the game, they just need to make sure the name and brand get out there enough to better their position when it comes time to approach a Netflix or an Amazon (or video game companies, as they have already done). I digress, the fact is that this brand was No. 2 in the market for a long time back in the day, and now can't even crack 3rd place? Even with the boost from being the newest and shiniest thing, and new entry in a gameline that's been dormant for the better part of a decade. The degree of their success or failure is immaterial if they're not making back their money--including the marketing budget--and, to the extent that they even have shareholders, you gotta wonder how happy they are that their new show pony is under performing compared with its one-time market share.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      It’s probably the case that a lot of what you like in previous editions, I regard as fluff and extrapolations that detract from the core concepts.
                      Elder vampires? The Sabbat? High-level political intrigue? Growing so older and powerful that one becomes a practical demigod with powers so bizarre that the very capabilities afforded by them create a sense of stark inhumanity? Tracking blood use the way every resource on the planet is actually tracked (i.e., by having a set quantity of something that is expended with use, and must be replenished)?

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      Vampire 1st edition was divisive and controversial - and that is part of what made it successful. V5 is keeping with tradition in that sense.
                      Well, the important difference here is that, while V1 was a game like none before, it was also a brand new IP to book. The people who made V1 saw a need in the market--a game that didn't exist and that they wanted to exist, so they made it from whole cloth. V5 is indeed like that--the difference is that rather than invent a whole new IP for this vampire game they wanted to play but didn't exist, they bought an extant IP to build on top of. If I wanted to play a game in which I portray a medieval merchant in a world without any magic, I wouldn't buy the D&D IP and change the game to fit that vision... I'd just make a new game.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      Most non-Vampire fans didn’t think WoD mattered anymore, before it started making the charts again with V5.
                      It didn't matter in the overall scheme of the market. They weren't competing with anyone. They marketed directly to a niche fan group who were clamoring for a particular product via Kickstarter and print-on-demand. If there had been any money put into advertising, or getting physical product onto gaming store shelves to compete for space with everyone else doing traditional print... in others words, if they had actually been trying to compete in this market, then maybe some non-fans would have felt like it mattered.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      It goes against some fans’ preferences on this site - which is a tiny proportion of the overall fanbase.
                      Are you claiming the vocal members of the fanbase is a "tiny proportion" compared to the overall fanbase, or that anti-V5 folk writ large are proportionally tiny compared to the rest of the fanbase? And what constitutes a member of "the overall fanbase"? I've heard people (and know of least one specific person) who bought a copy of V5 because !hype!, having never bought a White Wolf book before, fully intent on running the game or at least playing on Discord, and they just put the book on their shelf to collect dust, or put int on their coffee table book because they like the art (I do too, to be fair). Says they'll never use it, but can't be bothered to go through trouble of putting it on ebay. It's the copy I borrowed to read, and that's the most use it's gotten since it was purchased at launch. Obviously that proves nothing about the overall, but I'm also not making statements about relatively proportional sizes of groups based on these preferences.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      Then don’t play it, and let other people enjoy it.
                      You keep saying this as if people are coming to your house with megaphones and rotten vegetables to harass your guests or do doughnuts on your lawn when you try to play the game. You are every bit as entitled to extol the virtues of any game as you see them, as others are to kvetch. Just as no one is forcing us to go out and buy these games, or are burning our private game libraries, no one is impeding you from playing this game.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      I think it’s sad that people can’t get out of their own bubble and move on if they don’t like something. I mean we were talking about Mage, or a potential new Mage, and all we’ve now got is an invasion of people complaining about V5. It’s like an obsession.
                      You say this as if you have not been a gleeful participant in the whole thing. I'd ask you to see if you can pinpoint where the first statement is in this thread that was made solely about V5 qua V5, without any mention of M5 or Mage. Having said that, on what other factors can we base our speculation of what M5 might be like beyond the sole 5th Ed. game that is out now? I assure you, if W5 were out as well, these discussions would be as much about speculating over what commonalities can be derived from each game (V5 and W5) in order to extrapolate what common thematic and design elements may extend to M5. You work with what you've got. If you wanna talk to the dudes in the cave about what the world is like, you can't get peeved when everything relates back to shadows.

                      Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      No, but what you are doing here is harassing people for daring to say anything positive about V5, and the potential of M5 - which, unbelievably was the point of this thread. It’s not an opinion that is valuable if we are discussing something off topic, and where you have no intention of playing these games in any case.
                      Dissent is not harassment, particularly in the absence of ad homs, abuse, and threats. People got a little snippy (yourself included a few times)--harassment it was not.
                      Last edited by CaptOtter; 12-20-2019, 04:48 AM.


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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                        blah blah blah.
                        One finishes and another one starts.

                        This is a Mage thread. I’m not discussing why you hate V5 on this thread anymore. Not even going to read it. Don’t waste your time.
                        Last edited by Trippy; 12-20-2019, 05:07 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post

                          Dissent is not harassment, particularly in the absence of ad homs, abuse, and threats. People got a little snippy (yourself included a few times)--harassment it was not.
                          He has a very weird idea bout what "harassment" means. None of us even said "don't buy the game", or anything like that even. We just expressed our preferences and oppinion about the current direction of WoD. Clearly, some people just can't take even that and feel personally attacked by other people not cheering for the stuff they do.



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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                            No, but what you are doing here is harassing people for daring to say anything positive about V5, and the potential of M5 - which, unbelievably was the point of this thread. It’s not an opinion that is valuable if we are discussing something off topic, and where you have no intention of playing these games in any case..
                            As above.

                            Moreover, they aren’t going to stop making them just because you keep complaining.
                            Never asked them to do that.

                            There are too many other people that are happy to keep buying them and playing them, whether you like it or not.
                            And I wish them happy gaming.

                            A mature thing to do would be to accept that it isn’t a game for you, move on to discussing what you actually want to play and let others discuss things without your harassment. I’ll leave that with you.
                            Mature thing to do would be accepting that not everyone likes the stuff you do an that they have the right to say it and don't see it as a personal attack and harassment on you, because none of that happened.

                            I actually started itemising all your points, noting a bunch of circular arguments along the way, but considering we are now doing double posts of about 10+ argument bullet points each now - I think it’s worth saying stop.
                            Should I ddig up all the occasions on other threads where multiple people beyond me repeatedly pointed out where and how you version about several things were wrong, as a matter of fact? No, it's appearently worthless, because you're unable to acknowledge it and I have better things to do with my time.

                            Merry Christmas.
                            To you too.



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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                              He has a very weird idea bout what "harassment" means. None of us even said "don't buy the game", or anything like that even. We just expressed our preferences and oppinion about the current direction of WoD. Clearly, some people just can't take even that and feel personally attacked by other people not cheering for the stuff they do.
                              When somebody makes it clear to you that your behavior is objectionable and to stop, then by belligerently carrying on with it your behavior is harassing. You act like you need to proselytize your hatred of a game at every given opportunity. It’s not criticism - it’s hatred - and I refuse to engage with you or anybody else on the matter any more. You can get into your own group of like minded individuals and discuss it amongst yourselves. Stop wasting your time with me - and take off topic discussions to the right forum.
                              Last edited by Trippy; 12-20-2019, 08:13 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Trippy View Post

                                When somebody makes it clear to you that your behavior is objectionable and to stop, then by belligerently carrying on with it your behavior is harassing. You act like you need to proselytize your hatred of a game at every given opportunity. It’s not criticism - it’s hatred - and I refuse to engage with you or anybody else on the matter any more. You can get into your own group of like minded individuals and discuss it amongst yourselves. Stop wasting your time with me - and take off topic discussions to the right forum.
                                This is so much bullshit on so many levels it really doesn't worth my time. Everyone who have read the prior discussion could decide for themselves.

                                I really don't know why I thought, based on past threads, that trying to carry a sensible and polite argument with you could lead anywhere. My bad, won't happen again.


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