Thoughts about Mage 5th

[Lian]

As there's a big "The major factions have fallen and been reborn for ... version 5" theme going for metaplot and Mage already sort of had that with revised. I'm going to suggest the Technocracy Civil War be front and Center. The Technocracy's fingers are slipping and the world is spiraling out of control into Nihilism. You'll have a playable "good" Technocracy Faction, And maybe the Traditions with an Unplayable "Bad" Technocracy faction perhaps Explicitly Fallen to the Nephandi

[Trippy]

I myself would llike to see a complete divorce from vampire and the oWoD. I want to see a Mage game that stands on its own. No mixing of character types. No more worrying about compatability or balance between types of supernaturals. No more concern with the history and lore of vampires or werewolves.
Taking Mage to a different publisher would be an essential step in doing that. A game company that can focus on supernatural occult wonder.

I agree that having a different publisher would make this more likely, and I also agree that the connection with the rest of the WoD always felt a bit more tenuous - right from the 1st edition.

This is partially because it was the only one of the original WoD games that was not created by Mark Rein-Hagen (although some things were lifted from Ars Magica, which he co-wrote). It was written by Stewart Weick, who’s major inspiration for the game came from Pirsig’s Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - which is something of a far cry from the sources that influenced Vampire et al.

It’s also because, practically, the background of the Mage game just didn’t sit well with the rest of the WoD. How could it be that the reality of the world was mostly controlled by the Technocracy, with their rational world view, while still seemingly being overran with vampires and various other supernatural denizens, who is some cases were also supposedly controlling the world behind the scenes.

So, I think it could be a good move to find a way of at least sidelining the connections between the games, if not completely divorcing them. Not sure how that would work out as a pitch to White Wolf though.

For me, the main thing I would like to see preserved, maybe with a few tweaks, is the freeform magic system. Everything else, to me, is on the table as it were.

[Trippy]

As there's a big "The major factions have fallen and been reborn for ... version 5" theme going for metaplot and Mage already sort of had that with revised. I'm going to suggest the Technocracy Civil War be front and Center. The Technocracy's fingers are slipping and the world is spiraling out of control into Nihilism. You'll have a playable "good" Technocracy Faction, And maybe the Traditions with an Unplayable "Bad" Technocracy faction perhaps Explicitly Fallen to the Nephandi

Yeah, I quite like this as a backstory for the game. Personally, I’d like to see a radical shake up about the various factions and types of Mages you can play in the game. I’d remove a bunch of them, and rather than having organizations to join, I’d prefer to simply have broad paradigms that characters can follow as the way of organizing splats. That is, rather than playing a member of The Order of Hermes, you play a “Hermetic Mage” that can join any secret society that he wishes, or operate independently. Maybe new organizations could be detailed, but the main goal for me would be to stop barriers for having individual mages just forming eclectic groups of their own.

[PMárk]

Truth. Like, I want to add to the discussion, but I'm afraid that a statement like "hope they go a different route than V5 did, cuz it wouldn't be appropriate to Mage" is so scandalous, it'll blacklist me from a something. And forget saying "but V5 did get some things right, and I hope M5 follows suite", because down that road leads madness.

Can I just pick french toast? Waffles were great is the last edition but got totally neutered in P5 with the crappy Blueberry mechanics, and pancakes were bland and uninteresting in past editions and won't be revisited until IHOPbN comes out (at which point they will no doubt be awesome).

Yep. My very first (and several following) post was precisely about that. I'm critical about the current direction of WoD, so I'm not positive on the prospect of an M5. Then, some people couldn't take that, because how someone dare to say anything negative about their precious game and "ruining their enjoyment" and started asking me for details and that derailed the thread into this whole mess. It wasn't about V5 pointedly, aside from being a reference point, but the fact is, that's what we could base our oppinions about the current direction at this point, and some marginal news about W5.

[PMárk]

I myself would llike to see a complete divorce from vampire and the oWoD. I want to see a Mage game that stands on its own. No mixing of character types. No more worrying about compatability or balance between types of supernaturals. No more concern with the history and lore of vampires or werewolves.
Taking Mage to a different publisher would be an essential step in doing that. A game company that can focus on supernatural occult wonder.

Well, I know there was always a crowd, who wanted to handle the game lines separately, for different (and on their own, legitimate) reasons. Even among the writers. Still, I have to say, I liked the intitial promise of the new WW, that it'll be "One WoD", because I always liked the crossover aspect and always treated the games as sharing the same setting. For me, that aspect is a strength of WoD and one of the selling points.

[CaptOtter]

Unplayable "Bad" Technocracy faction perhaps Explicitly Fallen to the Nephandi

I can see different flavors of a "fallen" technocracy--some fallen to the Nephandi, which could be reflected in public by some mega merger of Pentex and some other companies--which would be a nice topical dovetail with recent IRL business/industry trends; and still others falling to/being co-opted by Threat Null.

[PMárk]

I can see different flavors of a "fallen" technocracy--some fallen to the Nephandi, which could be reflected in public by some mega merger of Pentex and some other companies--which would be a nice topical dovetail with recent IRL business/industry trends; and still others falling to/being co-opted by Threat Null.

Honestly, again, based on V5 and the info about W5 so far, I'd bet the roles and conflicts and in general the whole setting would be much more simplified. More akin to how it was in 1e, but with more blatant contemporary political overtones. I also wouldn't bet on Threat Null being a majro thing at all. Likely, the Umbra will be as, or even more restricted, than in Revised.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I only mentioned V5 in so far as V5 exists, and so M5 is a possibility. V5 made changes to the setting and mechanics, so in a hypothetical M5 changes to the setting and mechanics are possible. Writing "hope they go a different route than V5 did, cuz it wouldn't be appropriate to Mage" is fine (but you could be more specific). Five pages of vomiting bile about V5 into a M5 thread is not fine and is not welcome.

Frankly, I started the thread to see how likely people thought it would be for Paradox to farm M5 out to another company, and to ask which company they would prefer.

[Lian]

Honestly, again, based on V5 and the info about W5 so far, I'd bet the roles and conflicts and in general the whole setting would be much more simplified. More akin to how it was in 1e, but with more blatant contemporary political overtones. I also wouldn't bet on Threat Null being a majro thing at all. Likely, the Umbra will be as, or even more restricted, than in Revised.

The Tribes pulled back really doesn't SOUND like 1e werewolf. All the Sect in Vampire got kicked in the Face if the Garou nation has fallen in W5 which looks to be the case I'd imagine there'd be push to kickover the anthills in mage and the big one that's still standing is really the Technocracy. Threat Null gives a solid "1e Technocracy" But I imagine some sort of "Good" playable Technocracy folds out.

[CaptOtter]

Likely, the Umbra will be as, or even more restricted, than in Revised.

Damn, dude, how much more restricted could it be? As it stands, in Revised, you get shredded for stepping sideways—the next step is either not letting mages go there at all, or making it SO punitive/more damaging that it may as well not be there.

[Vysha]

Damn, dude, how much more restricted could it be? As it stands, in Revised, you get shredded for stepping sideways—the next step is either not letting mages go there at all, or making it SO punitive/more damaging that it may as well not be there.

Actually, that's probably how it would go, if the next publisher wants to limit umbral travel. I can see an argument being made about how access to umbral realms shifts the focus too far away from Earthly affairs, though I might not agree with it. So yeah, why wouldn't a publisher with that line of thinking just say "Spirit only lets you bring things across from the other side to Earth"?

[CaptOtter]

Actually, that's probably how it would go, if the next publisher wants to limit umbral travel. I can see an argument being made about how access to umbral realms shifts the focus too far away from Earthly affairs, though I might not agree with it. So yeah, why wouldn't a publisher with that line of thinking just say "Spirit only lets you bring things across from the other side to Earth"?

The Umbra might one of the most distinctive and fantastic parts of the Classic World of Darkness. I don't understand how it is that someone who got into Mage during second edition, and enjoyed it, would think the game would be better by functionally lacking an umbra--i.e., who played mage back in the day and said to themselves, "this game is great--except for like 60% of this game..."

[Lian]

Actually, that's probably how it would go, if the next publisher wants to limit umbral travel. I can see an argument being made about how access to umbral realms shifts the focus too far away from Earthly affairs, though I might not agree with it. So yeah, why wouldn't a publisher with that line of thinking just say "Spirit only lets you bring things across from the other side to Earth"?

IF We consider some of the Rumours from Werewolf, I'd imagine the Umbra is RELATIVELY Cut off but there are special areas you can access it. Rather than having a broad Gauntlet rating its something you can enter and exit from your magical/holy site.

[Vysha]

The Umbra might one of the most distinctive and fantastic parts of the Classic World of Darkness. I don't understand how it is that someone who got into Mage during second edition, and enjoyed it, would think the game would be better by functionally lacking an umbra--i.e., who played mage back in the day and said to themselves, "this game is great--except for like 60% of this game..."

I'm not speaking to my own preferences. I'm stating an excuse I could see a potential M5 publisher using for limiting the Umbra.

IF We consider some of the Rumours from Werewolf, I'd imagine the Umbra is RELATIVELY Cut off but there are special areas you can access it. Rather than having a broad Gauntlet rating its something you can enter and exit from your magical/holy site.

Yeah, I could see that being the case. In (redacted edition of redacted game), there was a real feel of guiding games down specific (though broadly paved) roads. Not so much a "one true way to play (Redacted)", but more "a handful of true ways to play (Redacted)" and they all seemed aimed at less fantastical themes and elements, for a more "grounded" game. Since the same oversight will be given to W5 and M5, I imagine a similar restriction on themes being present. Further limiting umbral travel is exactly where I imagine them looking to when considering where to narrow the focus.

[Trippy]

Actually, that's probably how it would go, if the next publisher wants to limit umbral travel. I can see an argument being made about how access to umbral realms shifts the focus too far away from Earthly affairs, though I might not agree with it. So yeah, why wouldn't a publisher with that line of thinking just say "Spirit only lets you bring things across from the other side to Earth"?

When the Umbra was 'cut off', which happened in the metaplot during the Masters of the Art sourcebook just before Mage Revised was released, it was due to the Technocracy nuking the Umbral worlds. In game terms, it meant characters would incur damage for Stepping Sideways, albeit not unsurmountable. In setting terms, it brought characters back down to Earth. There was aan Umbral sourcebook brought out for Mage Revised, down the line, but aspects of the Spirit Worlds were changed.

The basic intent of this could be argued in different ways. There was a feeling that the WoD developers wanted closer interaction between lines - meaning that Mages needed to be more wholly integrated with the setting inhabited by vampires, werewolves, et al. Some felt that the umbral worlds were a bit twee - with characters able to gallivant across them in a way that made it feel like Spirit World Quest, with a new setting each week, rather than anything to do with the WoD.

If they have a separate line for Mage, with only loose connections to Vampire and Werewolf, then there is no reason why the Umbra can’t be an important element of the game. However, I would like some work to be done to ensure that the mystery of the Spirit Worlds is emphasised.