How do you break Technocracy Conditioning?

[Konradleijon]

I’m planning on a story where a Motley of Changelings that hade a chantry of Mages as Friends a few years ago till the Chantry had to leave.

Latter the Changelings discover that one of their Mage Friends was captured by the Technocracy and Brainwashed. The characters pledge a Quest of Dreaming to take them back from the Technoractic Brainwashing.

How should the motley and allied Magi help them?

[Enginseer-42]

I mean it's not all that hard except at exceptionally high levels of conditioning at which point it effectively becomes impossible to break without outright magical intervention. At which point the answer is 'Magic their brain.'

But for the lower levels, you present them with information that they both A.) Know is true. And B.) Conflicts with their conditioning, while preventing them from 'topping up' on new conditioning that will explain that conflict away.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Why would you want to undo the good therapy efforts that the new world order has invested into such an unfortunate soul out of the goodness of their hearts? I think you should all volunteer for treatment, it's in your best interests.

[Konradleijon]

I mean it's not all that hard except at exceptionally high levels of conditioning at which point it effectively becomes impossible to break without outright magical intervention. At which point the answer is 'Magic their brain.'

But for the lower levels, you present them with information that they both A.) Know is true. And B.) Conflicts with their conditioning, while preventing them from 'topping up' on new conditioning that will explain that conflict away.

But the PCs are Changlings what power do Changelings have to reverse That type of Brainwashing.

[Konradleijon]

Why would you want to undo the good therapy efforts that the new world order has invested into such an unfortunate soul out of the goodness of their hearts? I think you should all volunteer for treatment, it's in your best interests.

Isn’t it so nice how they offered Free therapy to every single Mage.

[Prometheas]

But the PCs are Changlings what power do Changelings have to reverse That type of Brainwashing.

I'd think people at high technocratic conditioning could be treated similarly if not the same as autumn people. Changelings don't really have the best match-up when it comes to facing technocratic conditioning unless they're willing to take on a "Quest of Dreaming" to undo the banality holding the mortal's mind down.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

There is no escape and no breaking of the conditioning, it is forever and if one layer is removed there is always another layer under it.

[Prometheas]

There is no escape and no breaking of the conditioning, it is forever and if one layer is removed there is always another layer under it.

Unless you're a decent mind mage. In that case the only thing holding you back is the number of successes on a ritual, and that's only a limit of determination.

[CaptOtter]

If you're looking for an actual Rote/Procedure that does this, the Void Engineers have one called "Deprocessing" that uses Mind 4, with optional Prime 2 (the Prime makes the procedure "safer" after a fashion). The full write-up is in Void Engineers (Rev.) on pgs. 85-86. The non-magical elements of the Procedure look about as important as having the necessary spheres.

I would go a step further and posit that it would be possible for others groups to develop their own Mind 4 effects/rotes for breaking Conditioning, albeit I think it would be a much longer, more difficult road to get to where the V.E.s are with their own Procedure, if only because the V.E.s as a matter of necessity devoted a lot of time and resources to figuring this out, and not just anyone else is going to have the background, and non-stop stream of test subjects, to perfect their own version of this.

[Enginseer-42]

I'd think people at high technocratic conditioning could be treated similarly if not the same as autumn people. Changelings don't really have the best match-up when it comes to facing technocratic conditioning unless they're willing to take on a "Quest of Dreaming" to undo the banality holding the mortal's mind down.

Honestly that's the issue. At least personally I tend to play Higher Conditioning Technocrats as *less* banal.

They know magic exists. They're not in denial. That's why they need a leash.

Super High Conditioning Technocrats are weird. Everyone has a little bit, but for the most part it's just a mild push towards the Technocrats side of things. It's like regular brainwashing for a bit.

At higher levels, Control tells you who God is and you listen and believe, even if that changes from day to day.

[Saint Michael]

Why does Conditioning fail when you use it on Nephandi? Does it even work on Marauders? What about other reality deviants, like sorcerers, ghouls and kinain (humans with fae blood)? The Naming Art from Changeling, can essentially "rewrite" someone, if you know what you're doing, make a permanent cantrip and use some epic Bunks. Finding a namer, a (changeling) sorcerer or a member of the Crystal Circle willing to help would be a quest in itself.

Enchanting someone can also cause a drop in Banality, making the mage or Technocrat's Banality a non-issue as long as the enchantment lasts -- forever if you're in the Dreaming or a freehold. Permanently if you use the Ritual of Parted Mists

[Konradleijon]

Why does Conditioning fail when you use it on Nephandi? Does it even work on Marauders? What about other reality deviants, like sorcerers, ghouls and kinain (humans with fae blood)? The Naming Art from Changeling, can essentially "rewrite" someone, if you know what you're doing, make a permanent cantrip and use some epic Bunks. Finding a namer, a (changeling) sorcerer or a member of the Crystal Circle willing to help would be a quest in itself.

Enchanting someone can also cause a drop in Banality, making the mage or Technocrat's Banality a non-issue as long as the enchantment lasts -- forever if you're in the Dreaming or a freehold. Permanently if you use the Ritual of Parted Mists

Both Nephandi and Marauders are to far gone. Their avatars have been to warped to put to good use,. In the Nephandi case has been inverted their souls have been permanently Stained to not destroy their soul completely means Infesting the Great Wheel with their taint,

[Gryphon's Feather]

Nephandi souls are damaged to the point that not even reincarnation can resolve the matter. Some were Traditionalists or Technocrats, recruited of their own will. Many were forced into it by torture, and worse manipulations, if not just dragged up to the Caul and hurled in screaming.

Regardless of how willing they were, once their soul has been maimed like that, they can't be anything but Nephani, no matter how many incarnations come after. That's an absolute, with no examples of anyone managing to change it.

Technocratic conditioning is thankfully less severe. Technocrats are known to defect, if rarely, and the Traditions and Union have spies and double-agents in each other's ranks. Two whole Conventions have defected in the past, with a third being in a perpetual state of just about to follow after them*. Loyalties change, often unsuccessfully, but they do.

I have literally no experiance with changeling lore, so I'm not qualified to answer the main question beyond. "It should be possible, but only with the kind of supernatural efforts that you spin a whole plot out of?"


*For a given value of just about to. The Void Engineers have been saying "Any day now", for nearly twenty years.

[Dataweaver]

A good case could be made that Conditioning is coupled with Banality, and that the sorts of activities that would reduce someone's Banality would also have a tendency to undo Conditioning; and vice versa. It's not a perfect parallel; but I think it ought to be close enough.

On a separate note: if you buy the Revised Convention Book metaplot, the VEs have up on the notion of abandoning the Technocracy back when the Avatar Storm hit: you don't abandon your brothers in arms (the rest of the Technocracy) in their time of need. If you're not using Threat Null in your game, that's a different story. But if you are, then the Void Engineers intend to stick to the Union at least until Threat Null has been contained, if not longer.

[Konradleijon]

A good case could be made that Conditioning is coupled with Banality, and that the sorts of activities that would reduce someone's Banality would also have a tendency to undo Conditioning; and vice versa. It's not a perfect parallel; but I think it ought to be close enough.

On a separate note: if you buy the Revised Convention Book metaplot, the VEs have up on the notion of abandoning the Technocracy back when the Avatar Storm hit: you don't abandon your brothers in arms (the rest of the Technocracy) in their time of need. If you're not using Threat Null in your game, that's a different story. But if you are, then the Void Engineers intend to stick to the Union at least until Threat Null has been contained, if not longer.

It’s not betraying your brothers will. It’s More like deprograming one agent in exchange for information about inter dimensional entities,