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Vampires in the umbra

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  • Vampires in the umbra

    Greetings, I'm curious.

    If a mage were to petition a spirit to take a vampire into it's domain for whatever reason (let's say the Astral/High Umbra), would said vampire be able to access their gifts and full strengths as normal once they were in the Umbra? Would it have a harder than usual time fighting the spirit on it's own turf?

  • #2
    Why would the mage need to petition when the spirit sphere lets you bring people with you? Just pack a blood doll because there's no food in the umbra.


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    • #3
      Don't know why it'd be hard for them to cast disciplines. Pretty sure they'd be able to it easily. Note though that Spirits in WoD are "alive", but not Mortal. So Kindred will still be able to use disciplines but don't expect all of them to work on most Umbrood.

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      • #4
        KingJohn : If the intent is to use that Umbral abduction offensively against the Vampire, here is food for thought in that regard:
        You don't need to have the Vamp and the Spirit duke it out, because there are two things that make the Umbral landscape hell for most vamps:

        1) Most vamps can't cross into/from the Umbra. A specific Necromancy path can allow sidesteppings into the Underworld as an exception, and Auspex 5 allows classic Astral Travel where the body remains in the real world - connected by the silver cord as usual of course.
        2) There is no Blood in the Umbra. Again, Necromancy can allow feeding on a Wraith.

        Combine those two things with the vast majority of Vamps one encounters, and tossing one somehow into the Middle- or High Umbra (involuntarily) is then just a matter of forgetting about them - they're bound to run dry in a matter of days.


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        • #5
          I'd probably argue most of what is gone over in 1000 Hells applies rather generally. That is to say most discplines work pretty simply. Its just blood. The problem discipline being Blood Magic, which is built upon paintaking research into using the power of the blood to exploit aspects of reality. As the Umbra is a completely different reality... you get problems.

          Not being able to get more blood would be the next issue.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
            KingJohn : If the intent is to use that Umbral abduction offensively against the Vampire, here is food for thought in that regard:
            You don't need to have the Vamp and the Spirit duke it out, because there are two things that make the Umbral landscape hell for most vamps:

            1) Most vamps can't cross into/from the Umbra. A specific Necromancy path can allow sidesteppings into the Underworld as an exception, and Auspex 5 allows classic Astral Travel where the body remains in the real world - connected by the silver cord as usual of course.
            2) There is no Blood in the Umbra. Again, Necromancy can allow feeding on a Wraith.

            Combine those two things with the vast majority of Vamps one encounters, and tossing one somehow into the Middle- or High Umbra (involuntarily) is then just a matter of forgetting about them - they're bound to run dry in a matter of days.
            My character is calling an Angel of Judgement to convene a tribunal over the actions of a splat that has assaulted her, threatened her, and harassed her despite action from the Sheriff's department. The question is, would the vampire be able to combat the Angel within his realm, or would it be a fool's undertaking for him to even try?

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            • #7
              Vampires can use all their powers in the Umbra normally.

              Within reason, of course, just like mages. Say, Vicissitude doesn't work on most spirits because most spirits aren't made of flesh but ephemera. Yet the vampire ain't going to have any problem about changing *himself* with the Discipline. You ain't going to Earth Meld in a place where the "soil" it's made of concepts or clouds...and so on

              A Realm *may* impose a penalty or a bonus on the difficulty of *some* powers as per ST discretion, because the laws of reality change on realms. This can happen to Garou Gifts and True Magick, I don't see why Disciplines should be the exception.

              But in general they should be able to do everything that they can do on Earth.

              That's not to say that battling an angel on his own realm (or, generally, anywhere) isn't a fool's undertaking. It really depends on how powerful it's the spirit.
              Additionally:

              A Realm may have hazards that affect vampires badly. If the Angel of Judgement lives surrounded by holly fire that burns the wicked, most vamps are going to have a bad time there

              There may be other indirect advantages the Angel has on his own realm. Like, say, being under the gaze of an all powerful Archangel that may not be fond of vampires (or mages) abusing the Host.
              Last edited by Aleph; 01-03-2020, 08:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                Vampires can use all their powers in the Umbra normally.

                Within reason, of course, just like mages. Say, Vicissitude doesn't work on most spirits because most spirits aren't made of flesh but ephemera. Yet the vampire ain't going to have any problem about changing *himself* with the Discipline. You ain't going to Earth Meld in a place where the "soil" it's made of concepts or clouds...and so on

                A Realm *may* impose a penalty or a bonus on the difficulty of *some* powers as per ST discretion, because the laws of reality change on realms. This can happen to Garou Gifts and True Magick, I don't see why Disciplines should be the exception.

                But in general they should be able to do everything that they can do on Earth.

                That's not to say that battling an angel on his own realm (or, generally, anywhere) isn't a fool's undertaking. It really depends on how powerful it's the spirit.
                Additionally:

                A Realm may have hazards that affect vampires badly. If the Angel of Judgement lives surrounded by holly fire that burns the wicked, most vamps are going to have a bad time there

                There may be other indirect advantages the Angel has on his own realm. Like, say, being under the gaze of an all powerful Archangel that may not be fond of vampires (or mages) abusing the Host.
                And perhaps even having his own platoon of angels on standby to guard the dominion?

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                • #9
                  If he's at the rank of Lord or above, that's most likely.

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                  • #10
                    If the angel is that powerful, what are the odds of it answering a PC's petition directly rather than sending some lesser minion to answer it?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                      KingJohn : If the intent is to use that Umbral abduction offensively against the Vampire, here is food for thought in that regard:
                      You don't need to have the Vamp and the Spirit duke it out, because there are two things that make the Umbral landscape hell for most vamps:

                      1) Most vamps can't cross into/from the Umbra. A specific Necromancy path can allow sidesteppings into the Underworld as an exception, and Auspex 5 allows classic Astral Travel where the body remains in the real world - connected by the silver cord as usual of course.
                      2) There is no Blood in the Umbra. Again, Necromancy can allow feeding on a Wraith.

                      Combine those two things with the vast majority of Vamps one encounters, and tossing one somehow into the Middle- or High Umbra (involuntarily) is then just a matter of forgetting about them - they're bound to run dry in a matter of days.
                      I was wondering about this.

                      Is it possible to teleport someone into the high/astral umbra? I believe that since there are gateways one needs to pass to go into the high/astral umbra, you wouldn't be able to teleport someone to it or use correspondence to scry into the astral realms.

                      Is this true?

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                      • #12
                        Not quite.

                        There are several ways to enter the Astral Umbra. The most common it's trough Mind based Astral Travel. The Vulgate (the aspect of the Astral Umbra that it's closest to Earth) can also be accessed trough normal Spirit if your mage has the Astral Videre. One can also "climb" to the Vulgate from the Middle Umbra, although such travel it's dangerous.

                        The very fact that there are gateways shows that Correspondence work as normal(that is, not alone). Gates-boundaries are part of the metaphysical domain of Corr.

                        Scrying the Astral it's easy enough with Spirit 2/Corr 2 for those with the correct Videre. An argument could be made that to see deeper than the Vulgate one needs Mind 3, that's also used to peek into dreams

                        Sending someone there can be tricky. Mind 5 can send someone's mind there (Astraly). Life 4 could be used to transform someone into "the stuff of mind", allowing physical travel (much like how VE can travel physically to the Dark Umbra).

                        An argument could be made that sending someone to the Vulgate would require just Spirit 4 (+ Corr if you want actual teleport)
                        Last edited by Aleph; 03-03-2020, 09:59 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Bear in mind that so far as I know nothing official has been written about how disconnection would interact with the vampiric curse in the Middle and Astral Umbras, or if they'd even be subject to it. I can certainly see the possibility of vampires gradually mutating into something other if they're in that alien environment long enough.

                          I think material on Harbingers of Skulls has indicated vampires go into torpor from starvation in the Dark Umbra if they can't find an alternate method of feeding in time. Though worse fates can also befall them, and it's been hinted at least some of the Harbingers are corpses possessed by their own ghosts Risen-style rather than actual vampires.

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