Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Calling Technocracy Fans.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

    I'm hoping (but not expecting) that they address what I consider to be the single biggest flaw in the way the Technocracy has been handled in the past: namely, that they've been presented as being fundamentally and objectively wrong, with the lower ranks being ignorant of the True Nature of Reality and the higher ranks lying about it. I've gone into depth about how I think it ought to be addressed elsewhere, so I won't belabor the point here; but I do want it addressed better than it has been in the past.
    There is a secret no many are aware about Mage: the Ascension : it is a game about spirituality. The original traditions are based not just on real-world cultural area, but on the spirtituality of these cultures. The word "Arete", even if commonly translatted into "virtues", mean, in hermetica, as the betterment of one self, the connection to the divine inside, the elevation of the soul to its principle. In that optic, the Technocracy is objectivly wrong, as are the Nephandis and the Marauder, btw. As for technomagick, as the many real-world spirtuality have for principle the detachment of the material world, well, draw your own conclusion.

    But it is were the game and the setting really shine : you can be objectivly wrong, and still act, do things and having influence on the world all around you. And in our Age of Solipsism, this is a powerful thing to said.

    Comment


    • #17
      And that was fine in the first edition, when the Technocratic Union was the monolithic Man oppressing the heroic underdog mages. It hasn't been that for a long time; certainly not in M20, where the Technocrats are presented on even footing with the Traditions and the Disparates as protagonists (as opposed to the Nephandi and the Marauders, both of whom are still presented as antagonists).


      Comment


      • #18
        I'll admit, I'm concerned. I love the Technocracy and I thought the Revised Convention Books were the best material we've seen to date regarding the Technocracy. But Phil wrote on a Facebook post a few months back that he didn't want to write it as them being "The REAL good guys" and that no matter how well meaning they will ultimately still be fascists. I'm hoping we at least see some good Iteration X material given they are my favorites and their Convention Book pales in comparison. I want to be excited but we'll see.


        "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

        Comment


        • #19
          Is it coming out soon? Technocracy Reloaded.


          The die is cast.

          Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Imthestein View Post
            I'll admit, I'm concerned. I love the Technocracy and I thought the Revised Convention Books were the best material we've seen to date regarding the Technocracy. But Phil wrote on a Facebook post a few months back that he didn't want to write it as them being "The REAL good guys" and that no matter how well meaning they will ultimately still be fascists. I'm hoping we at least see some good Iteration X material given they are my favorites and their Convention Book pales in comparison. I want to be excited but we'll see.
            My view is that there aren't any “real good guys”; everyone, including the Traditions, is flawed.

            My earlier post was about wanting the Technocracy to have a metaphysical leg to stand on, not whether or not they have the moral high ground. Even in the“Kinder and Gentler” Revised Conventions, you still had the NWO engaged in institutional brainwashing and the Syndicate more interested in profit than ethics; all they did was to take the worst edge off of the more problematic groups (e.g., no more Computer running Iteration X, no more SPD, and no more mass infiltration of the Void Engineers by Deep Umbral sympathizers).

            But in terms of less reprehensible Technocrats, that's where I expect Navalon to come in: they'll still be flawed, and not the non-existent hypothetical “true heroes” of the game; but they won't be fascistic.


            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              My view is that there aren't any “real good guys”; everyone, including the Traditions, is flawed.

              My earlier post was about wanting the Technocracy to have a metaphysical leg to stand on, not whether or not they have the moral high ground. Even in the“Kinder and Gentler” Revised Conventions, you still had the NWO engaged in institutional brainwashing and the Syndicate more interested in profit than ethics; all they did was to take the worst edge off of the more problematic groups (e.g., no more Computer running Iteration X, no more SPD, and no more mass infiltration of the Void Engineers by Deep Umbral sympathizers).

              But in terms of less reprehensible Technocrats, that's where I expect Navalon to come in: they'll still be flawed, and not the non-existent hypothetical “true heroes” of the game; but they won't be fascistic.
              Yeah, That's actually what I'm hoping for. But the comment of "They're not the REAL good guys" took me as a detraction from that. Too often we get the Traditions being "the good guys" and that's all I'm saying I want to move away from. Saying the Technocracy are fascists is, to me, saying they are the bad guys. If we get a more grey area where no one is the good or bad guys then I'm actually happier with that.


              "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

              Comment


              • #22
                Oh, there are definitely bad guys in the M20 setting; if nothing else, you have the Nephandi. And I won't be at all surprised if Technocracy Reloaded ends up returning the Union to a more purely fascistic model — but you'll also have Navalon as a home for your Enlightened Scientists who are more like the Revised Conventions than the Technephandi-dominated Union: that is, the same sorts of Paradigms and Practices, but without the “we can and will run your life better than you” mission statement that the Union is about to go all in on.

                If I'm right, the Navalon Scientists won't technically be Technocrats anymore, as that's literally “government by the technical elite” and Navalon will at the very least be unable, and probably unwilling as well, to do anything resembling governing for the foreseeable future.

                But though they'll reject the Technocracy's aims, they'll still be Technocrats in the sense of their understanding and practice of Enlightened Science; and that will set them apart from the Society of Ether and the Mercurial Elite, both of which long ago embraced the Traditions' unifying Paradigm that “We are all Gods in Disguise” (also known as the Purple Paradigm).


                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                  Is it coming out soon? Technocracy Reloaded.
                  It's coming out Soon™: it's nearly through Onyx Path's development process, and the plan currently is to Kickstart it — though plans aren't final until they've been executed. Exactly when it will be Kickstarted is still unknown as far as I know.


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Dataweaver thanks.


                    The die is cast.

                    Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                      Oh, there are definitely bad guys in the M20 setting; if nothing else, you have the Nephandi. And I won't be at all surprised if Technocracy Reloaded ends up returning the Union to a more purely fascistic model — but you'll also have Navalon as a home for your Enlightened Scientists who are more like the Revised Conventions than the Technephandi-dominated Union: that is, the same sorts of Paradigms and Practices, but without the “we can and will run your life better than you” mission statement that the Union is about to go all in on.

                      If I'm right, the Navalon Scientists won't technically be Technocrats anymore, as that's literally “government by the technical elite” and Navalon will at the very least be unable, and probably unwilling as well, to do anything resembling governing for the foreseeable future.

                      But though they'll reject the Technocracy's aims, they'll still be Technocrats in the sense of their understanding and practice of Enlightened Science; and that will set them apart from the Society of Ether and the Mercurial Elite, both of which long ago embraced the Traditions' unifying Paradigm that “We are all Gods in Disguise” (also known as the Purple Paradigm).
                      Yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of Navalon when it was first introduced in the Guide to the Technocracy. In real life my background is Physics and I work in the Semiconductor Industry and I'm tired of anything science and technology related having to have a mystic bent just to be deemed good. I think Phil is great when he writes mystic oriented groups but, honestly, I don't have much faith in him to represent scientific and technological groups well given his past work.


                      "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        My point is that I think that the extent of the “mystic bent” that Navalon will have is that they'll be aligned loosely with several mystical societies (the Disparates) in order to fight the Technocracy's depredations. The whole point of the Disparates in my view is that they don't subscribe to the Traditions' Grand Unified Theory of Magick, and each faction is completely free to pursue its own philosophy and practices as they always have, without compromise. All they ask is that they give each other shelter and aid when the bad guys show up and start messing with them.

                        If I'm right, a Navalon technician will be indistinguishable in terms of Focus from an Iteration X technician. The difference will be the fact that the former will be fighting Hit Marks while the latter will be deploying them. There won't be anything mystical in the way Navalon's Scientists do what they do any more than there's anything mystical in the way the Technocracy's Scientists do what they do, because their theories and practices will be identical; the only difference will be what goals they pursue.

                        Which is why Technocracy Reloaded would be a good place to talk about them.


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I don't think the bad version of the Technocracy are fascists, but the worst forms of capitalism.

                          I mean, now of all times "fascism" should be recognised to mean a specific thing, and the Technocracy have to be as far away as one can get from some of the basic tenets like, say, the idealisation of a made up pre-lapserian past.

                          Unless there's something I misunderstood about them, there's no time in the past where Y was "great" that they want to make it again in their eyes; greatness lies entirely in the future.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            I don't think the bad version of the Technocracy are fascists, but the worst forms of capitalism.

                            I mean, now of all times "fascism" should be recognised to mean a specific thing, and the Technocracy have to be as far away as one can get from some of the basic tenets like, say, the idealisation of a made up pre-lapserian past.

                            Unless there's something I misunderstood about them, there's no time in the past where Y was "great" that they want to make it again in their eyes; greatness lies entirely in the future.
                            Yeah, 100% this for me. I think too many people conveniently ignore how much social progress has taken place under the Technocracy, but as you note there's also the concers of the worst forms of Capitalism. I think the dark Cyberpunk future is a good expression of how bad things could get under the Technocracy but it shouldn't be conveyed as Fascist.

                            It's one of the things I appreciated from the Revised Convention books was acknowledging the faults while showing how they try to do good at the same time. The Feminist progress within the NWO is a great example to me as it shows more women moving into higher positions but you still have the issues of a patriarchy built in. Add onto that how the NWO and Progenitors try to move towards Universal Healthcare but they have to contend with the Syndicate that want a paid insurance model instead and you see how the internal politics are part of the problem.

                            Much more realistic and interesting imho.


                            "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Each Convention has its own dystopian future; and the bad side of the Technocracy as a whole depends on which one of them dominates.

                              “The worst forms of capitalism”? That's what you get when the dark side of the Syndicate emerges. But when the dark side of the NWO emerges, you get a totalitarian surveillance state. The dark side of the Void Engineers is the evils of empire: a military state that enslaves and exploits its subjects to further empower the elite. It's possible to integrate these three into a single dystopian future; but it's also possible for one or two to represent a dark future without the others.

                              And if the dark sides of Iteration X and/or the Progenitors are truly let loose, you won't have to worry about politics or economics: the former will literally turn us all into components in a machine (see “The Matrix”, but substitute “processing node” for “battery”) assuming the machines don't wipe out organic life entirely (hello, Skynet!), and the latter will see the emergence of a literal Gaia hive-mind as the entire bio-mass of the planet gets incorporated into a single life form that is to us as we are to our cells (Isaac Asimov's Foundation's Edge). I kind of do want to see Technocracy Reloaded address Threat Null, as the Autopolitans and Transhumanity highlight what can happen if their respective Conventions go overboard.


                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                I don't think the bad version of the Technocracy are fascists, but the worst forms of capitalism.

                                I mean, now of all times "fascism" should be recognised to mean a specific thing, and the Technocracy have to be as far away as one can get from some of the basic tenets like, say, the idealisation of a made up pre-lapserian past.

                                Unless there's something I misunderstood about them, there's no time in the past where Y was "great" that they want to make it again in their eyes; greatness lies entirely in the future.

                                I agree completely. The Technocracy tried that on for size in WWII and it went horribly bad. I'm fairly certain the experiences from that time inoculated the Union against that sort of thing.


                                Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X