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  • Tolerating Vampires, reasons to, Magick tactics and infiltrating them

    Last night was a harrowing ordeal. We went to a Hollow One bar only to find it infested with thirsty Vampires. They wanted Our magick blood and weren't taking no for an answer. The Hermetic projected an illusion of a bond-fire into their minds, sending them into Rostrecht. We tracked them to their lair. The first rays of sun now light the horizon. If we show mercy, do we become their dinner?

    I don't include vampires in my Mage setting, because I find the masquerade hard to explain, especially given the Sabbat's efforts to break it. If you love Vampire crossover, these ideas have been collecting dust.

    There are a hundred and one ways to invade a vampire haven during the day if you have Sphere Magick. So why wouldn't a Cabal wipe them out?

    Reasons to Tolerate Vampires:
    - They have ghouls who will die without their blood.
    - Humankind is overbreeding and destroying the planet. An apex predator, above humans, is necessary.
    - Every vampire was once human and most were sought out by their sires, whatever their other plans might have been. They have a right to exist.
    - They are a problem for the Technocracy. OR, one only needs to capture video of a Tzimisce torture session and show it to the Celestial Chorus to keep the Traditions busy with them.

    Securing Lasting Peace:
    The Toreadore Clan of both sects love art. Mages with Correspondence, Matter, Forces, Entropy and Mind can create art that no vampire could hope to produce. They are easily impressed (entranced) with extra-dimensional art and that art fetches a high price.
    The Life Sphere can be used to generate large supplies of blood for vampires.

    Facilitating and Extending Magick through Blood Bonds - messing with ghouls:
    Ghouls are generally blood bound to a single Vampire. There are three common types of ghouls.
    1. haven guards
    2. institutional influence agents (the chief of police)
    3. Sabbat war ghouls

    Before a human is turned into a ghoul, they have a set of important relationships to family, friends and paramours. People know them for who they are. If they have risen to a position of influence in an institution, it is usually because they are committed to fulfilling the mission statement of that organization. The relationship the person has to others and his sense of duty can be understood through the Spheres as part of a Societal Consensus.

    When a Vampire turns a human into a ghoul and blood bonds him, he fundamentally alters the ghoul's pattern of behavior and feelings toward others. All of a sudden, the Vampire's needs take priority over everyone and anything else. The Vampire doesn't need to compensate the ghoul with anything other than blood, an exchange that is done in secret. It is a sudden change that doesn't fit with the Consensus. Why has Jennifer moved to that windowless house, only to take calls for her ugly night-owl boyfriend? She had a great guy and lots of friends. Why is Captain Hills throwing homicide cases in the garbage?

    Mages have an agenda to advance their Paradigm and change the Consensus, at least locally. Vampires have an agenda to keep themselves hidden, to keep the masses from discovering and analyzing the mechanism of their influence. This is difficult in the information age. A ghoul's human family have an agenda to discover what has happened to their loved one. A smart Mage could plan an information sharing alliance with the family and friends of the ghoul that serves to advance their Paradigm and lay the foundation for all kinds of coincidental Magick.

    Step 1: Surveil the haven and record conversations between ghoul and master Keep most of the footage from ever being shown to anyone. Video record the ghoul leaving and returning from errands to prove where they are and who they are serving.

    Step 2: Approach Jennifer's family as a member of "Champions of the Disappeared", a fringe activist group that investigates a secret society of kidnappers. Show the pictures of Jennifer coming and going from the haven. Duplicate that footage for different family members to stash, using this as a deterrent against vampiric aggression. Explain that some police may be involved in the conspiracy. You need lots of ordinary people working together to oppose the captor.

    The Vampire is completely vulnerable during the day and the ghoul can sense danger to their master through the blood bond. What if the ghoul IS the cause of danger to her beloved master? Her family now know where she is and are quite pissed at the owner of the windowless house.

    Step 3. Approach the ghoul during the day and explain what is going on. Emphasize that suicide to save the Vampire would only draw more attention to him, now that the relationship has been documented. Staying with the Vampire keeps the network of concerned people's attention on the haven. She needs to leave the haven but can't imagine going without that Vitae for great lengths of time. It is a weighty decision to consider.

    In the Scientific Consensus, it is believed that Stress manifests in the body in the form of frown-lines, grey hair, skin conditions and accelerated aging. Ghouls' bodies don't age and so can't resolve the stress superficially. Being a form of human, the ghoul has an average willpower of three, making Mind Effects on them easy, using the blood bond as a powerful anchor for effects. Induce massive mental stress on the ghoul using simple logic (Manipulation + Expression) and an difficulty-adjusted Mind spell.

    The stress of being the greatest source of danger to her one true love is going to manifest somewhere. Look into her psyche to determine if the stress will manifest as a behavioral disorder. Assuming you have a Cabal with most Spheres covered, checking her Prime Pattern and Spirit connections could yield valuable secrets applicable to Magick cast on ghouls.

    She is going to run home and talk to her master to warn him of the danger he is in. This is a perfect opportunity to use coincidental Magick on the Vampire from a distance, using her as the delivery system. Overwhelmed with the immediacy of the situation, she will go down during the day and wake him up, hitting him with Stress-Magick while he's weakened by the sun. Gods bless the sun! Now he can't sleep. He will consider killing the ghoul to cover his tracks before changing havens. The blood bond prevents her from seeing his monstrous intensions, delayed by the information network you have pointed at him. Each is aware that they are a danger to the other. Time for her to move out.

    On the trip home to her mom's, you offer up an explanation that can be used to focus attention away from the Vampire. Insert Mystic Paradigm Here. You are there to support her as she rebuilds her connection to family and friends. As time passes, the Stress Magick wears off, allowing her Pattern to readjust. Great time to study her Pattern further. Only one thing complicates her life. The feeling she has toward the Vampire is still stronger than any human connection she is trying to rebuild.

    You now have a group of believers, maybe even an Acolyte or two. You have a ghoul who is a psychic compass pointing at the Vampire. The range of possible effects that you could build on this connection is vast. So what about finding her a new source of Vitae? Since you saved the day, her family will assume she is safe with you. Time to hit that nightclub. In her Mind Pattern, the current blood bond distorts her image of the Regnant. This is supported by rationalizations forced also be the blood bond. The moment she meets a willing replacement is the time to cast more Magick, an effect that overlaps the end of the old blood bond and the beginning of the new one.

    The effect? Why not try to induce a form of polarized back-and-forth dual bond, creating alternately idealized and horrid images of each competing Regnant. If her image of the Regnants is fluid, you or another Mage could appear to take the form of that Regnant, giving false orders or debriefing her on masters' business. So, we've begun to climb the ladder, starting with the weakest connections, human to human, moving up to the all-powerful vampiric blood bond and have created a repeatable effect that can be used on a blood bound person.

    Vampires are people too. Disfavored Vampires get put down by princes for minor frenzies while an elder's closet full of atrocities goes unpunished. Princes are almost always blood bound to elder puppet masters who hide their influence, much like the Vampire who you just rescued the ghoul from. A Vampire Prince with high Perception, Empathy and sensory disciplines, like Auspex, is going to have a clear impression of the vile elder Regnant buried in his subconscious. The conflict between that and the idealized image created by his blood bond produces some fluidity. Pump in some Mind and Entropy and you can manifest to the Prince as this evil Elder and give false orders that expose the corruption. Dealing with Vampires Ahl-i-Batin style.

    Preemptive Infiltration, The Fate Weavers Way:
    Life Mages with many years ahead of them might take a longer view. Territory wars between Vampires happen often enough. Vampire societies have specific criteria for those they would embrace, often dictated by a strategic situation. Heavy hitters are need to vanquish the enemy. Socially adept society builders are needed to calm the population in the conquered territory. In addition to these criteria, individual Vampires select based on their own need, be it companionship or legacy.

    A little Time, Entropy and Mind could reveal who is on the short list for Vampiric Embrace. Why not cast effects on those candidates ahead of time that make them agents of your Cabal or Chantry. Once those agents are brought into the lower tier, use the above tactic to shake up the power pyramid, giving neonates early opportunities to move up the ranks. Diablery, the eating of a vampire's soul by another, is something to be understood through the Spirit and Prime Spheres. Since you're Cabal are going to be around, why not learn something from it?

    Claiming Vampire-Subverted Institutions:
    Captain Hills, the police chief is new on the job. He has a family. Kids have moved out and now it's just him and his wife. A seductive Sabbat Bishop takes him as a ghoul. A Vampire Pack under her jurisdiction has caused a ruckus, leaving grief-ridden mortals screaming for answers. Captain Hills wants to find the killers. The Bishop sends a currier with a letter asking him to meet her in private. At the meeting, she explains that the blood feasting rampage incident is being handled and revealing the killers' identities to the public would lead to a catastrophe. She would be put in personal danger. The Captain doesn't want anything bad to happen to her and he trusts her judgement. He proceeds to cover up the incident.

    Police officers undergo background checks. They are psychologically tested. Their actions and decisions are documented, forming a record that scientifically represents how that officer is likely to act in the future. A clever Mage need only surveil the captain and enlist others in the police and justice system to start a fact finding mission surrounding the Captain's sudden abandonment of previously demonstrated convictions. Insert Paradigm Here to hide the Bishop. Now, you have made some of your Magick coincidental to the police. City life just got easier for the Trads.

    When Chief Hills is finally confronted by your network of investigators, he will be made to realize he is a threat to his beloved Bishop. while he's trying to cover his bases at the station, approach his wife. Show her evidence of the relationship with the Bishop. It was not anything he was missing at home, but an Etherial Mystic Force that pushed him toward the seductress. Mrs. Hills can give you an understanding of how he related to a woman before being blood bound. You have a basis of comparison. A blood bond is a supernatural life altering effect without a publicly known explanation. The information void needed for vampires' survival is where you insert your paradigm to explain what is happening.

    Just as Magick has resonance, Vampiric Disciplines have psychic signatures. Who Dominated and memory wiped this witness? Study their Mind Pattern to discern the unique signature. Operating during the day, a Mage visiting an important local institution can stir up trouble that would force Vampires to leap into action the moment the sun sets. They would have to visit people who had gone home after their day-shift, using Presence and Dominate to thwart the plot set in motion by the Mage. This would keep the Vampires so busy, they would not have time to search for the Mage who is resting comfortably in his sensory deprivation tank in an undisclosed location. When other beings can create mind altering effects with no paradox and those beings die in sunlight, Mages have the incentive and time-window to force those beings' hand, building their paradigm on the unexplained.

  • #2
    That’s nice. I think the Verbrana would tolerate vampires, because it’s not like they don’t use tons of blood magic.

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    • #3
      Order of Hermes has entered chat


      You've been playing around the magic that is black
      But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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      • #4
        Reasons to tolerate vampires:
        - You have plenty of enemies already. If you're already worrying about Technocrats, Nephandi, and Marauders, why piss off another established faction?
        - You probably don't know much about their abilities, fighting an unknown enemy is dangerous
        - If you can actually find a semi-trustworthy vampire, you could have a lot to offer each other, since you're probably good at very different things
        - Vampire mystics might have some fascinating lore that living magi haven't seen in ages
        - (if Hermetic) Those Tremere guys are basically just estranged cousins of the Order anyway, why not mend fences?

        Reasons not to tolerate vampires:
        - They prey on humans, that's just awful
        - They're not fully in control of themselves, even the ones who try to be nice-ish are liable to slip eventually, go into a frenzy and drain someone to death
        - They're habitual schemers, you probably can't trust them
        - (if Hermetic) Those Tremere bastards betrayed us all and they've been poaching our magi for centuries!

        I dunno. I always found it bizarre how oWoD books portrayed different supernaturals as being almost totally ignorant about each other. Being aware of another major supernatural faction and just ignoring them instead of either gathering information or trying to set up diplomatic talks seems odd. (Admittedly, those diplomatic talks might well end in "let's agree to stay out of each other's business," but still.)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
          I dunno. I always found it bizarre how oWoD books portrayed different supernaturals as being almost totally ignorant about each other. Being aware of another major supernatural faction and just ignoring them instead of either gathering information or trying to set up diplomatic talks seems odd. (Admittedly, those diplomatic talks might well end in "let's agree to stay out of each other's business," but still.)
          I guess individual writers were focused on the internal logic of the game line they were writing for. If you are writing for a deadline, you want your imagination to generate rich plots with ancient seductive elders and the horror of Vampirism, not being forces to compare powers between a whole bunch of crossover. They did leave mixing open to the player-base. People seem to like crossover. I find including Wraith and Changeling in my Mage chronicle workable - "Those other guys live in the Umbra. We should visit or commune with them about that ancient mystery.".

          In a stand-alone Vampire chronicle, it makes sense that Vampire characters can have huge fortunes and influence over corporations with ghoul CEOs. They have had centuries or more to make that Old Money. A doting Ventrue sire might give a character a few million dollars worth of play-money for the progeny to build a larger fortune with. It facilitates another direction from which to influence human society using the cover of corporate lobbying. They can allow their human servants to run things during the day with only the other sect's ghouls to worry about.

          When you try to port Vampire into a Mage chronicle, the ability of sun-fearing puppet masters to hold onto vast fortunes becomes questionable. As soon as there is a conflicting pair of agendas between a Mage and a Vampire, in the realm of business, the ability of the Mage to operate during the day tilts the balance of power very heavily in the his favor. Sphere Magick versus a ghoul's one point of Potence in a corporate boardroom sees the company board voting how the Mage wants them to, unless the company determines policy based on arm-wrestles. Even then, Life or Forces.

          Another clear reason to try and get along with Vampires: focusing human aggression on local conflicts. In an age of nuclear weapons, wars between countries could be catastrophic. There is a basic minimum level of potential for violent conflict in the human population. Football and mixed martial arts provide some outlet. Video games, also. Sooner or later, someone wants to see some other group punished for their different ideology or infringement on the economic interests of "My Country". Vampire society is centered on the City. Territory wars between sects and rival princes are city versus city. This inevitably involves the local populations of the respective cities. Small regional conflicts happening at different times, all over the world, release human aggression in a controlled way, so that it doesn't get projected into a war between superpowers.

          I'm curious about what 5E Vampire says about the question of Vitae and Tass. Can a Mage convert Vitae to Tass? How much does a vile of 13th gen blood convert to compared to an ancient 4th gen's? I would guess that blood-to-tass would be ruled against, because I just thought of a feedback loop. Verbena, Life 3, Prime 3, vampire ally background/merit. 5 freebie points for a reasonably ancient, low gen ally. They would want for nothing.



          Last edited by HorizonParty2021; 10-20-2020, 11:26 PM. Reason: paragraph spacing

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
            That’s nice. I think the Verbrana would tolerate vampires, because it’s not like they don’t use tons of blood magic.
            Just because something uses blood to fuel magic does not make it a friend.
            Quite the opposite for the most part when it comes to vampires: Vampires 'take away' from the circle of life. They leech off life force or outright kill existing life without giving anything back to the cycle - their bodies don't go back to it in the end, their consumption does not feed back into it. And their way of reproducing spreads that. They are figurative black holes that Life disappears into (Which is like the best analogy to "Wyrm tainted!" there probably is from their point of view). A ton of witches rather hate them.

            There are exceptions of course, for as many personal reasons one can think of - or just out of curiosity. One can also presume that any Bahari/Worshippers of Lilith among the witches have a bit more tolerant view of Vampires - perhaps even a somewhat guilty one, given that Lilith's various associations with Vamps are rumored about.
            Last edited by Ambrosia; 10-21-2020, 04:06 AM.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
              Just because something uses blood to fuel magic does not make it a friend.
              Quite the opposite for the most part when it comes to vampires: Vampires 'take away' from the circle of life. They leech off life force or outright kill existing life without giving anything back to the cycle - their bodies don't go back to it in the end, their consumption does not feed back into it. And their way of reproducing spreads that.
              Humans chasing advertised goods are devouring the planet in a way that vampires would have no real interest in doing. If vampires all over the world went on a deadly feeding orgy, would that not improve the surviving human population's odds of building a sustainable economy in time?

              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
              They are figurative black holes that Life disappears into (Which is like the best analogy to "Wyrm tainted!" there probably is from their point of view). A ton of witches rather hate them.
              Behaviorally, the Wyrm is more of a corrupter than an annihiliator. It takes hapless workers hired into Pentex and corrupts them. Using human pawns, it creates blight on the Earth. Blight is Something, a pool of toxic, spiritually tainted chemicals that Alter the surrounding environment. The Wyrm's ambition may be to consume everything, but what it actually does is spread taint. The Gangrel Clan would certainly be opposed to the Wyrm.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

                [COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=13px]Humans chasing advertised goods are devouring the planet in a way that vampires would have no real interest in doing.
                Yes, but that's where the hate for the Progenitors and Technocracy in general comes in One could say the hate for vampires is more..religious and metaphysical while the one you quote is actual "They are ruining the planet."

                The Gangrel Clan would certainly be opposed to the Wyrm.
                Oh, no doubt. And the Gangrel are proooobably the vamprie clan that the witches who do tolerate vamps get along with the most, along with certain more exotic (or by now gone) Bloodlines like the Lhiannan, Sami and Anda.
                Last edited by Ambrosia; 10-21-2020, 06:22 AM.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                  - Every vampire was once human and most were sought out by their sires, whatever their other plans might have been. They have a right to exist.
                  Right to exist? Huh. Even if Vampires wouldn't have this right, they can claim it at any time due to their temporal, social, and mystical power. If only mortals would know that Vampires are pulling the strings, they should be glad that such beings as Vampires lord over them.

                  Also - if drinking blood of mortals or commanding them are such problems, then maybe Mages who think so should first sort out all the ills, tragedies, and inequalities that humanity inflicts on themselves.
                  I also would like to note that the first Cult of Ecstasy book has it written that the Toreador Vampires do feel the Pulse of Lakashim. So Mages can definitely have a positive outlook on Vampires. The Masters of the Art book notes various Clans who might be appropriate as peers and companions for experienced Mages.
                  Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-21-2020, 03:05 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                    In a stand-alone Vampire chronicle, it makes sense that Vampire characters can have huge fortunes and influence over corporations with ghoul CEOs. They have had centuries or more to make that Old Money. A doting Ventrue sire might give a character a few million dollars worth of play-money for the progeny to build a larger fortune with. It facilitates another direction from which to influence human society using the cover of corporate lobbying. They can allow their human servants to run things during the day with only the other sect's ghouls to worry about.

                    When you try to port Vampire into a Mage chronicle, the ability of sun-fearing puppet masters to hold onto vast fortunes becomes questionable. As soon as there is a conflicting pair of agendas between a Mage and a Vampire, in the realm of business, the ability of the Mage to operate during the day tilts the balance of power very heavily in the his favor. Sphere Magick versus a ghoul's one point of Potence in a corporate boardroom sees the company board voting how the Mage wants them to, unless the company determines policy based on arm-wrestles. Even then, Life or Forces.
                    This is all very true. But then, a mage actually attending the board meeting and casting spells there is putting more ongoing effort into that particular company than the vampire who just feeds his ghoul one blood point per month and sends him instructions. The vampire probably has his fingers in plenty of other pies.

                    If the company is really that important to the two of them, maybe they'll investigate and try to kill the other bastard trying to steal control of their company...or maybe they'll talk and see if they can't come to some kind of compromise.

                    If you're already a politically-minded mage with enough Mind skill to shield yourself from vampiric domination, it probably costs you nothing (as far as you know) to set up a chat and see what the deal is. And by "see what the deal is" I mean "see if you can tolerate each other and both achieve your goals without conflict," or perhaps even "try to convince this vampire that you have a common enemy in the Syndicate." (Unless you are a Technocrat, in which case your bosses are probably micromanaging what you're allowed to discuss with Count Dracula in the first place, but they might still permit the discussion if they think talking will get you more profit and control than violence or evasion.)

                    It would take some serious hubris to think you can out-manipulate an elder vampire, but hey, it might actually be in your interests to work together. You never know unless you try talking.

                    The result will of course depend on what your actual goals are (and what you're willing to reveal about your goals to a vampire you just met), but don't you have enough problems without escalating your conflict against this bloodsucker?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                      When you try to port Vampire into a Mage chronicle, the ability of sun-fearing puppet masters to hold onto vast fortunes becomes questionable. As soon as there is a conflicting pair of agendas between a Mage and a Vampire, in the realm of business, the ability of the Mage to operate during the day tilts the balance of power very heavily in the his favor. Sphere Magick versus a ghoul's one point of Potence in a corporate boardroom sees the company board voting how the Mage wants them to, unless the company determines policy based on arm-wrestles. Even then, Life or Forces.
                      There are long periods in a year when the sun sets as early as 16:00 or 17:00 PM. This leaves plenty of room for a Vampire to either attend the board meetings (the Ghoul nominates the Vampire as his representative in a parody of the actual relation) or to meet the businessmen in other ways to influence them. Likewise for other possible situations.
                      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 10-27-2020, 04:42 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

                        When you try to port Vampire into a Mage chronicle, the ability of sun-fearing puppet masters to hold onto vast fortunes becomes questionable. As soon as there is a conflicting pair of agendas between a Mage and a Vampire, in the realm of business, the ability of the Mage to operate during the day tilts the balance of power very heavily in the his favor. Sphere Magick versus a ghoul's one point of Potence in a corporate boardroom sees the company board voting how the Mage wants them to, unless the company determines policy based on arm-wrestles. Even then, Life or Forces.
                        vampires can possess humans during the day (dominate 5, thaumaturgy) or project their psyche (auspex 5),
                        those are pre-v5

                        it takes some skill, but they can use non-physical disciplines while possessing a human or a projecting

                        if it's not enough for you, just allow them to have Mage/Sorcerer servants/allies/ghouls/whatever to do the job for them,
                        or use the combo discipline system or 6+ level disciplines to make them do what you need them to

                        (just don't use v5, they nerfed vampires hard in the last edition)


                        -

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                          vampires can possess humans during the day (dominate 5, thaumaturgy) or project their psyche (auspex 5),
                          those are pre-v5

                          it takes some skill, but they can use non-physical disciplines while possessing a human or a projecting
                          Possession requires the human to be permanently stripped of any free will (Conditioned, if I remember correctly). The vampire has only as many dice as his path rating during the day. If it's humanity, it won't be long before he's rolling three dice max. Trying to run a company that way would not be worth the loss of humanity.

                          Astral Projection - you're invisible. Every action that you take with physical effect takes willpower.

                          The thaumaturgy rituals for the Sabbat were ridiculously overpowered. Illuminate the Trail of the Prey. So much for investigation, suspense and mystery. "I've identified the next target from the memories of the one whose soul I just ate. Recast ritual."

                          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                          if it's not enough for you, just allow them to have Mage/Sorcerer servants/allies/ghouls/whatever to do the job for them,
                          or use the combo discipline system or 6+ level disciplines to make them do what you need them to

                          (just don't use v5, they nerfed vampires hard in the last edition)
                          Vampires blood-bonding or otherwise enslaving Mages is a reason for Mages Not to tolerate them. If I figure out that a Vampire has done that to a member of my Cabal, I'm going to be standing over their coffin with the noon sun shining in. "She was an awakened being, shining the light of her avatar onto the world until this copse made her addicted to his poison. Forget the sun. I'll haul his coffin to the other sect's territory for a diablery auction - appropriate punishment for the crime."

                          I don't know of any instance of a Mage enslaving a Vampire, despite their ability to turn them into lawn chairs and the ease with which they can be captured during the day.

                          The only things I heard about V5 is the hunger mechanic, Sabbat having humanity (wtf) and some Vampires reverting to a humanlike state during the day, so they don't suffer sun damage. The theme was always supposed to be that you are trying to tiptoe around vastly more powerful ancient vampires who took thousands of years to learn their disciplines. Maybe that's why they nerfed playable characters. The only advantage the younger vampires have comes to them, courtesy of the technocracy - a scientific consensus to which the ancients are not adapted. "Inter-what? Fetch me my spear."
                          Last edited by HorizonParty2021; 10-22-2020, 08:51 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

                            The only things I heard about V5 is the hunger mechanic, Sabbat having humanity (wtf) and some Vampires reverting to a humanlike state during the day, so they don't suffer sun damage. The theme was always supposed to be that you are trying to tiptoe around vastly more powerful ancient vampires who took thousands of years to learn their disciplines. Maybe that's why they nerfed playable characters. The only advantage the younger vampires have comes to them, courtesy of the technocracy - a scientific consensus to which the ancients are not adapted. "Inter-what? Fetch me my spear."
                            I wasn't talking about PCs,
                            they nerfed NPCs more than they nerfed PCs,
                            a group of mortals is enough to take down an ancient vampire,
                            canonically, they even took down the highest Tremere chantry in Vienna

                            so...yeah, V5 is def not what you want in your mage chronicle

                            The thaumaturgy rituals for the Sabbat were ridiculously overpowered. Illuminate the Trail of the Prey. So much for investigation, suspense and mystery. "I've identified the next target from the memories of the one whose soul I just ate. Recast ritual."
                            that, coming from a mage player who can do anything...you know mages can summon the sun to a vampire's haven,
                            you said it yourself, mages can turn vampires into lawn chairs and capture them during the day,
                            and you're worried about Trail of the Pray?

                            Vampires blood-bonding or otherwise enslaving Mages is a reason for Mages Not to tolerate them. If I figure out that a Vampire has done that to a member of my Cabal, I'm going to be standing over their coffin with the noon sun shining in. "She was an awakened being, shining the light of her avatar onto the world until this copse made her addicted to his poison. Forget the sun. I'll haul his coffin to the other sect's territory for a diablery auction - appropriate punishment for the crime."
                            look, I'm trying to help,

                            you want vampires in your mage setting,
                            but you don't want them to have thaumaturgy (understandable, I don't like vampire sorcerers myself),
                            but you also don't want them to have supernatural servants

                            what are vampires supposed to do?

                            I'm out of ideas,
                            maybe make them and their ghouls resistant to magic? I don't know


                            -

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pleidas
                              summon the sun to a vampire's haven
                              You'd need Arch-Spheres to do that.


                              Jade Kingdom Warrior

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