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Elite Boarding Schools for Technomancers' neglected kids

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  • #16
    Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
    As for wives and grandmas, it isn't really possible to protect everyone. Deterrence of Tradition war crimes by proportional response is a more reliable strategy. In your average Tradition chronicle, when is a plan to murder innocent Sleepers seriously considered? At what point does that become a Nephandi campaign?
    At a point before attacking children would be considered?

    If we're under the assumption technocratic children need to be locked on because potential Traditional threat, I would assume everyone (and almost everything) would be on the plate at this point.

    A junior Technomancer is probably at ease and less distracted if he knows his kids are well taken care of. The tuition paid by the Union keeps his "wife" happy and in contact with the school. Her attending parent-teacher meetings yields biometric data taken by security cameras. Everyone is accounted for.
    A junior Technomancer it's going to be more at ease knowing his family it's well taken care off, sure. I agree with that logic.

    I'm missing the link where boarding schools it's the only way to achieve this, though. I mean, sure, have them. Have boarding schools, by all means. However, I want to believe this would be a choice (or, at least, a conditioned "choice") of the agent, and not Control deciding "what's best" for your family - because 3 levels of Conditioning is explicitly not enough to take freedom of choice away

    Now the last ideas are so..."Control" .. that I need to comment on it, albeit it's offtopic.

    The tuition paid by the Union keeps his "wife" happy and in contact with the school. Her attending parent-teacher meetings yields biometric data taken by security cameras. Everyone is accounted for.
    The whole reasoning gives me chills. That's a very streamlined vision about happiness, like people didn't want different stuff for their lives, or the lives of their families.

    Now, that's all very Technocratic indeed.

    Like, what if the mother doesn't want their children to be taken away, only to meet them in a controled 3rd party environment? - I guess then she's being Unmutual, so worse for her.

    The junior Technomancer isn't going to be thinking about his Oldlife-wife that much, with all the 5 appearance clones he's going to meet. If a female Technomancer was missing her husband one day, getting her needs attended to by the infinite-stamina Synthetic with movie-star looks would be enough to refocus her attention on the benefits of Union membership.
    [irony]
    Why don't we give the agent perfect children too, since we're at it?
    [/irony]

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not against any of this happening, but I also imagine these would be the anecdotes a defector from the Technocracy would tell (maybe not even a defector)

    -Yeah, it seems that the psy-ops noticed I was a bit nostalgic for my old wife
    -So, what did they do?
    -Them, being empathy personified, sent a "succubus" to my room. I said "thanks, but no, I'm not really horny rigth now".
    That's why everyone hates the psy-ops.
    Last edited by Aleph; 11-10-2020, 09:29 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Aleph View Post

      At a point before attacking children would be considered?

      If we're under the assumption technocratic children need to be locked on because potential Traditional threat, I would assume everyone (and almost everything) would be on the plate at this point.



      A junior Technomancer it's going to be more at ease knowing his family it's well taken care off, sure. I agree with that logic.

      I'm missing the link where boarding schools it's the only way to achieve this, though. I mean, sure, have them. Have boarding schools, by all means. However, I want to believe this would be a choice (or, at least, a conditioned "choice&quot of the agent, and not Control deciding "what's best" for your family - because 3 levels of Conditioning is explicitly not enough to take freedom of choice away

      Now the last ideas are so..."Control" .. that I need to comment on it, albeit it's offtopic.



      The whole reasoning gives me chills. That's a very streamlined vision about happiness, like people didn't want different stuff for their lives, or the lives of their families.

      Now, that's all very Technocratic indeed.

      Like, what if the mother doesn't want their children to be taken away, only to meet them in a controled 3rd party environment? - I guess then she's being Unmutual, so worse for her.



      [irony]
      Why don't we give the agent perfect children too, since we're at it?
      [/irony]

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not against any of this happening, but I also imagine these would be the anecdotes a defector from the Technocracy would tell (maybe not even a defector)

      -Yeah, it seems that the psy-ops noticed I was a bit nostalgic for my old wife
      -So, what did they do?
      -Them, being empathy personified, sent a "succubus" to my room. I said "thanks, but no, I'm not really horny rigth now".
      That's why everyone hates the psy-ops.
      The traditional are not all rosy, some mostly the Euthrutos are willing to do pretty messed up things, especially if the prize is shaping reality. Some people will be willing to do everything no matter how bad for the fate of reality itself s

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
        The traditional are not all rosy, some mostly the Euthrutos are willing to do pretty messed up things, especially if the prize is shaping reality. Some people will be willing to do everything no matter how bad for the fate of reality itself s
        Maybe? I'm not really arguing against that. I'm just arguing that if you're capable of going after the children, you will likely have no qualms going after the mother, the grandpa. Pretty much everyone it's in danger, at that point - that's why you have to let it go in the first place.

        Euthanatos are the least likely to go after children and bystanders, though. They have pretty big bans against killing or even hurting the innocent. Not in vain they're the most likely to give even young Widderslainte a chance, even when it's a known fact that they're "evil by design".
        They have a well earned bad reputation, but they're only willing to do pretty messed up things if it's directly against the people they deem "bad", they can't touch the people arround them unless they're also "found guilty"

        If you're a Technocrat, the first and most important fortress protecting your family it's yourself, and the backing you get from the Union preventing your position (your mind, your body) from being easily compromised by the enemy.

        You don't go back to your family, so you can't get followed. You discipline your mind as to be hard to read. And you don't just wander arround without someone watching over you. The big brother it's always watching - this is bad for your moral (no privacy - remember that you have to earn your privacy in the Union), but it's good because big brother likely *can* protect your mind and detect magical activity in your vecinity.

        It may be good to have other measures in place, in case that first barrier gets breached - but one can't really replace it. The Trads knowing you have a family it's an indication that something already went very wrong - who knows what else migth have been compromised at that point.
        Last edited by Aleph; 11-11-2020, 09:59 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          If you're a Technocrat, the first and most important fortress protecting your family it's yourself, and the backing you get from the Union preventing your position (your mind, your body) from being easily compromised by the enemy.
          There is also the threat of retaliation by the Technocracy.
          From the point of view of the higher-ups, anyone attacking Oldlife families of Technocracts is just acting in an inefficient way - you'd think if it is hostilities then they would at least hit Extraordinary Citizens first.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            There is also the threat of retaliation by the Technocracy.
            From the point of view of the higher-ups, anyone attacking Oldlife families of Technocracts is just acting in an inefficient way - you'd think if it is hostilities then they would at least hit Extraordinary Citizens first.
            I don’t think the higher ups are that uncaring as to not give a shit of all on a Loyal agents Old life family. Technocrats mostly aren’t robots. They give a shit about there mom and kids.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

              I don’t think the higher ups are that uncaring as to not give a shit of all on a Loyal agents Old life family. Technocrats mostly aren’t robots. They give a shit about there mom and kids.
              Doublethink is very useful here. Yes, it is a tragedy to an extent; but at the same time it is excellent that the hostile Tradition or Nephandi Mages have just revealed themselves while striking targets of no particular strategic value. I imagine Technocrats not related might be assigned to handle the case, just so emotions don't get into the way of neutralizing the threat.

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              • #22
                I thought the 'yeah, Technocracy are emotionless robots' trope was 1e?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                  I thought the 'yeah, Technocracy are emotionless robots' trope was 1e?
                  It is.

                  Altrough Traditionalists still tend to believe so - and that's exactly what the Technocrats want because it minimizes tactics like going after the agent's families. To some extent it's even true from an enemy's perspective, since clones and robots are often deployed against the Traditions.

                  It may very well be that a given mage never sees a real Technocrat until it's too late to do something about it - and even when that's not the case, Mind 1 shields are quite common. So, from a certain pov, it's reasonable for the myth to prevail

                  Albeit, the idea that the high-ups are very detached from the field, and often treat their subordinates as numbers, it's not wrong. It's one of the conflicts depicted in Guide to the Technocracy. Control it's not a caring entity/institution - that never changed. Still, I don't think they would just treat the families of their agents as sacrificial lambs. It would be begging for defection and internal turmoil (and, well, they wouldn't order their agents to cut those ties in the first place)
                  Last edited by Aleph; 11-12-2020, 03:02 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Still, I don't think they would just treat the families of their agents as sacrificial lambs. It would be begging for defection and internal turmoil (and, well, they wouldn't order their agents to cut those ties in the first place)
                    One part of being a genius and logical thinker is the knowledge that not everyone is 'logical' and 'rational'.

                    Hyperpsychology should include knowledge on how to manipulate people based on their loves, affections, fears, and bonds.
                    Last edited by Accelerator; 11-12-2020, 03:33 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Yeah. To some extent that's true, but that doesn't need to be always good for a given low level agent. The agents of the NWO aren't called spooks for nothing.

                      The Union cares about you being efficient, that's not always the same as being happy. More so, the Union isn't always consistent about what that means. If the "souless" Technocrat it's a myth of the Traditions in latter editions, the same happens with the image of the Technocracy working as a perfect monolith.

                      For street level agents, showing detachment it's a survival tactic not only against external threats, but also against the internal turmoils within the very Union - which can get pretty scary.

                      If you think of the leaders of the Technocracy as benevolent old people always caring for their agent's well being - well, that's not really how this works. In general, it's assumed you don't want Control's cold and inscrutable hands messing with (what's left of) your personal life - that's why privacy it's a coveted reward, while being send to the NWO's psy-ops it's a punishment
                      Last edited by Aleph; 11-13-2020, 10:21 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                        If you think of the leaders of the Technocracy as benevolent old people always caring for their agent's well being - well, that's not really how this works. In general, it's assumed you don't want Control's cold and inscrutable hands messing with (what's left of) your personal life - that's why privacy it's a coveted reward, while being send to the NWO's psy-ops it's a punishment
                        All the Traditions have to do is build a "Construct" in their own territory with all the equipment a group of Technomancers could need. They can then extend an invitation to anyone wishing to leave the Union to pursue research without lazy oppressors denying them basic dignity.

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                        • #27
                          That doesnt easily work. For starters, there's the ideological conflict.

                          Secondly, the union is extremely powerful and wealthy. Want more nodes? You can get it. More primium? OK. You want the work and infrastructure built by several masters? Cool. More rare reagants? OK.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                            That doesnt easily work. For starters, there's the ideological conflict.
                            For the Traditions, breaking the Union into those who accept being spied on all the time versus those who are willing to break away, while keeping their paradigm, is advantageous - a wedge that helps them win the conflict.

                            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                            Secondly, the union is extremely powerful and wealthy. Want more nodes? You can get it. More primium? OK. You want the work and infrastructure built by several masters? Cool. More rare reagants? OK.
                            The Traditions have some of these resources. If the rogue guests could regularly supply them with finished goods, it could work out well.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                              All the Traditions have to do is build a "Construct" in their own territory with all the equipment a group of Technomancers could need. They can then extend an invitation to anyone wishing to leave the Union to pursue research without lazy oppressors denying them basic dignity.

                              For the Traditions, breaking the Union into those who accept being spied on all the time versus those who are willing to break away
                              You've not long ago started a Thread about putting all the children of your agent's inside an institution entirely regulated by the Technocracy, constantly monitored by the Technocracy, and at the sole mercy of the Technocracy - aka, "your bosses". Also you seemed to imply that agents would accept that happily, out of fear.

                              It's "surveilance state" good or bad at the end of the day?

                              Of course Technocrats are tired of Technocratic opression micromanaging every aspect of their lives to make them more efficient - that's one reason of defection. But it also kinda comes with the territory when you're a mega-paranoid sect that's constantly under "cold war" procedures, against people who have all the resources of magick at their disposal.

                              At the end of the day, I think agents hardly need more Control on their personal lives than they already have.

                              That's why I would make the school(s) something that exist, but add that agents are free to decide if that's what they want for their old life. Hoppefuly, with agents that also happen to be good people, that means they would take in count the opinions and desires of the family

                              And adding more reasons than just fear. Stressing more the value of the education and prestige than the whole "Control it's watching your family with killer satellites - Rejoice!" (said with Dalek sounds) thing. Not that the latter won't be true - security it's important.

                              And Security it's an important concept to understand the Technocracy and why it does what it does, even when sometimes it migth be oppressive.The whole "security vs. freedom" argument suits very well to the conflict between the Trads and the Technocracy. It's a good place to search the goods and the bads of the factions
                              Last edited by Aleph; 11-16-2020, 11:47 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

                                For the Traditions, breaking the Union into those who accept being spied on all the time versus those who are willing to break away, while keeping their paradigm, is advantageous - a wedge that helps them win the conflict.



                                The Traditions have some of these resources. If the rogue guests could regularly supply them with finished goods, it could work out well.
                                Urm... the problem is that not only does this risk reprisal (as an example to others, and also because these guys have dangerous knowledge) The Traditions are on the backfoot. They're the underdogs. They're the guys who have to watch out for the plasma cannon satellites and teleporting HITMarks. There's a reason why the Union is so powerful. It's constant supply of prime energy. It's large masses of working linear sorcerers to assist in everything. It's large quantity of primium and primium foundries. It's the near unlimited amount of supplies that any mage needs.

                                Yeah, you can give some prime energy and primium to them... but why? The prime energy was meant to go to a celestial chorus cleric who was going to bless a dozen or so warriors to be comes superhuman soldiers for god. He's now asking why there isn't prime energy for him, someone who has served faithfully for decades in the war for reality. The primium was once reserved for an etherite plasma cannon and goes to the technocrat, leading him to come a-knocking. Wasn't he the guy who attacked that Nephandi Caul? Why is he being short shrifted?

                                Maybe there's prime energy and primium lying around... but the question is this: In a world where the Traditions are fighting for reality, where every hand is on deck... why are these guys having resources instead of the other guys already on your side?

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