Effect of Awakening on who you are Attracted to

[HorizonParty2021]

As a Sleeper, I can tell you that physical appearance is an important determining criteria in who I go out with. There are some twenty percent of people who everyone else wants to sleep with, marry, date and compete for, because they're hot. Their Life Pattern is pleasing to the eye. Before awakening, characters in WoD see things in very much the same way. They may be highly empathic, have an Awareness rating and appreciate people's deeper qualities, but if there's no physical chemistry, close friendship is generally as far as things go.

I would think that Awakening could change that to some degree. The question is, how much and how soon? You are still in the habit of noticing beauty or handsomeness first, even if you try not to. It is hardwired into you, biologically. The new Sphere Perceptions that you gain access to will have you scanning everything and everyone for a while. Mind, Spirit and Time are the most obvious windows into previously hidden aspects of other people.

If you could override the disqualifying criteria, the range of people you could chose as romantic partners broadens quite a bit. People who aren't usually sought after are like undiscovered treasures. They have a lot to offer. Being the one person who takes the time to unlock their amorous potential might be rewarding and enlightening. I have two Mage NPC concepts based mainly around this question.

At the same time, you could just use your new abilities to hone in on that 4 or 5 appearance woman or man you were dreaming of before, paying even less attention to other possibilities.

Thoughts?
Sentiments?

[Accelerator]

There's the limitation issue. Awakening is just such a huge thing, and changes so very much about a person. Mind 1 rotes alone lets you empower your own thought processes. Lower Life rotes let you heal faster, get stronger, and basically be that body builder from advertisments.

At this point, you might start setting your sights higher. A lot higher. Very, very high. Magic can do a lot of things. Like make yourself prettier. Sure, maybe you're setting your sights on that pretty waitress with Appearance 3 and can make you laugh with some good jokes... but why bother when there are people around you that can hit Appearance 7, outwit and make good conversation with gods, and has endless stamina to boot?

And there's the connection issue with other people. After all, if your horizons have expanded and you're now in the war for reality/ a seeker of the true nature of reality/ a figher for the human soul, you're going to get busy. And there's also the issue because of, well, how your new life will affect your romantic prospects. Are you going to tell your wife about what's happening, or are you going to go to someone where you don't have to go past that particular hurdle? Like, say, that cute Verbena girl you saw last week. Your first thought on talking to someone with intent on having a long relationship with or marriage is things like 'ok, what do I tell her about magic'?

[Caliginosa]

I think the point of "biologically hardwired" functions might not be automatically changed by Awakening. You might be able to change that on purpose, but I don't think it will change by itself.
As far as I remember, Research says that we select our partners in the first way by cues that on the one side indicate desirable attributes and by gene matching (which partly works over pheromones). Someone might look good, but if the genes of the two persons wouldn't match, they can't smell each other. Good looks are another indicator for good genes. And that's what the biological aspect of finding a partner is about. Clean skin, good hair, etc. all speak for health and good genes. That's important when choosing a partner for reproduction. And then there's the (more female) point where the ability to take care of the wife and children comes into play, reflected by physical ability, wealth, status. When looking for a long time partner, females would prefer the second type and then take a look for good genes for their children. Ideally the chosen partner has them, too. But you could go and get them elsewhere, the caretaking father might never know. All these are biological aspects the influence decision-making subconsciously. And then conscious thinking starts being of importance, too.
I hope this was helpful.

[Aleph]

I think with Mages one thing to be considered it's that they tend to have very high Willpower. 5 it's the minimum, and that's already way above the norm. More so: When the Awakening happens, this it's a Will that literally shapes reality against the firm beliefs and expectations of the masses. Hence why I think that Belief pays a very important role, so to speak. This will shape your reality

An Appearance 7, being supernaturaly beautiful, would make pretty much anyone want to have sex with that person - but if there are live people who could reject such beauty for some reason (like, say, you believe other cualities, or perhaps traditions like marriage, are important) , Mages have the most chances to be among these people.
As a Mind/Life mage more so, because such a wizard it's going to be in tune, and thus shape, it's own desires more than other wizards. But even for other wizards, these are precisely the kind of people that migth have a more rarified perception about who they want to be with. It comes with the territory when you're someone whose belief shapes the world

For potent wizards, the very fact that you can just make someone beautifull, or summon sex spirits whenever you want, migth make mages inured against such allures - much like how porn stars sometimes don't search sex when choosing companions outside their job (or so I have heard, I don't have a study or anything). At that point, you migth as well appreciate other cualities to that beauty you've come to take for granted.

And that's before talking about powerful wizards who have chosen to become transhuman in some fashion - their desires migth be very hard to relate from the perspective of human beings

And that's before even starting to consider that beauty it's in no small part a social construct (any passing study on the history of beauty can show you that) - and we know very well who constructs society (or at least belives to do so): What it's the sexual prefferences of the people that actualy decide what the standards are going to be in the future? .

How it feels like to be capable of being able to meet with the various concepts of beauty, and the conepts of partnership, and the rest of elements of human relationships, and then determine what's going to be desirable and/or good for yourself and others? The heck if I know, but I think that at that point "platonic love" migth have a whole new world of meanings for that person.

[Konradleijon]

I don’t know awakening usually is because or causes a huge change in your world view. Which probably could change your priories on dating and romance and what you expect out of a Partner.

Like maybe know you talked with ghost and fought Wyrm spirts you appreciate the “proper” human fourms after seeing horrific mockeries of it. know even if there not what you would call them the common social Stan of beauty’s.

Or maybe a Rando Ophern that awoken uses a spell to make attractive women sleep with him ‘which is rape. Seriously even if they don’t see the implication like that Buffy episode.’

[baakyocalder]

Mages can see beyond human perceptions and know that the world is more complex than it is for most people. If we go into this being the World of Darkness, the horror elements for Mage are alienation (as they gain power and can do things they are less and less like normal humans) and the costs of power (most powerful spells take a lot of effort or some nasty sacrifices). That means most mages are going to struggle with becoming farther and farther out from normal humans.

With Willpower of 5+ and the power to shape the universe, it's unlikely that mages are as easily tempted as standard mortals. As for how their perceptions change, that depends on the mage, but they'll know that a lot of gender and sexuality as human societies view them are constructs. Being able to see beyond the constructs could make for major changes or not.

As for the genetic assumptions, well genetics have to be expressed, so since humans live in societies, it's hard to know how much attraction is innate and how much is innate and channelized by society.

[Accelerator]

And yet, hubris is part of them.

I'm quite sure that quite a few mages still believe in those social constructs.

[HorizonParty2021]

There's the limitation issue. Awakening is just such a huge thing, and changes so very much about a person. Mind 1 rotes alone lets you empower your own thought processes. Lower Life rotes let you heal faster, get stronger, and basically be that body builder from advertisments.

At this point, you might start setting your sights higher. A lot higher. Very, very high. Magic can do a lot of things. Like make yourself prettier. Sure, maybe you're setting your sights on that pretty waitress with Appearance 3 and can make you laugh with some good jokes... but why bother when there are people around you that can hit Appearance 7, outwit and make good conversation with gods, and has endless stamina to boot?

And there's the connection issue with other people. After all, if your horizons have expanded and you're now in the war for reality/ a seeker of the true nature of reality/ a figher for the human soul, you're going to get busy. And there's also the issue because of, well, how your new life will affect your romantic prospects. Are you going to tell your wife about what's happening, or are you going to go to someone where you don't have to go past that particular hurdle? Like, say, that cute Verbena girl you saw last week. Your first thought on talking to someone with intent on having a long relationship with or marriage is things like 'ok, what do I tell her about magic'?

You got me there. Cute Verbena girl - marital bridge incinerated, ashes offered up to the gods for good fortune in love. However, this raises another issue from the Traditions' perspective. The Technocracy has an advantage in terms of Extraordinary Citizens. The institutions that do the intake are larger, operate at a profit and are more socially accepted than a Pagan or Wiccan conclave who are not even fully accepted by fellow Traditions in the Celestial chorus.

If tradition Mages pursue relationships exclusively with each other, they forgo the opportunity to draw in people who will become much needed Acolytes. A temporary secretary striving to get a permanent position in a company with ties to the Technocracy is unlikely to accept an invitation to attend some occult gathering. If there's a fit mysterious man who takes romantic interest in her, she might very well change her mind.

The Traditions cannot afford to be excusive and insular. They need to at least try to keep up with the Union's mass recruitment. So, Mage-Mage relationships might be "open" by necessity. Who's going to be jealous of a mere Sleeper?

I think the point of "biologically hardwired" functions might not be automatically changed by Awakening. You might be able to change that on purpose, but I don't think it will change by itself.
As far as I remember, Research says that we select our partners in the first way by cues that on the one side indicate desirable attributes and by gene matching (which partly works over pheromones). Someone might look good, but if the genes of the two persons wouldn't match, they can't smell each other. Good looks are another indicator for good genes. And that's what the biological aspect of finding a partner is about. Clean skin, good hair, etc. all speak for health and good genes. That's important when choosing a partner for reproduction.

For reasons surrounding an issue Konradleijon mentioned (see below), dating is moving out of bars and night clubs where alcohol is served and onto "swipe right" aps. Olfactory selection doesn't get a chance in many cases. If the sexual selectors, women, are scrolling through pictures of men and dumping less physically attractive ones in the reject bin, some who would have the right pheromones' never get the chance to show up light on deodorant and sweep her away. Having likely forfeited the chance to meet her perfect genetic match, she is committed to moving forward with the guys picked for looks.

And then there's the (more female) point where the ability to take care of the wife and children comes into play, reflected by physical ability, wealth, status. When looking for a long time partner, females would prefer the second type and then take a look for good genes for their children. Ideally the chosen partner has them, too. But you could go and get them elsewhere, the caretaking father might never know.

It is heartening to see women organizing against Paternity Fraud, which has hit epidemic proportions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3f6...PaternityFraud

All these are biological aspects the influence decision-making subconsciously. And then conscious thinking starts being of importance, too.
I hope this was helpful.

Toward the goal of awakening a Sleeper, collecting evidence of their unconscious drives and then presenting it to them in the right way is very helpful.

I think with Mages one thing to be considered it's that they tend to have very high Willpower. 5 it's the minimum, and that's already way above the norm. More so: When the Awakening happens, this it's a Will that literally shapes reality against the firm beliefs and expectations of the masses. Hence why I think that Belief pays a very important role, so to speak. This will shape your reality

An Appearance 7, being supernaturaly beautiful, would make pretty much anyone want to have sex with that person - but if there are live people who could reject such beauty for some reason (like, say, you believe other cualities, or perhaps traditions like marriage, are important) , Mages have the most chances to be among these people.

The Mage with Appearance 7 is seen through by the Mage with Life 1. I think that is why Mages would sooner use these social buffs to pull prospective Sleeper Acolytes into close relationships to facilitate their development.

As a Mind/Life mage more so, because such a wizard it's going to be in tune, and thus shape, it's own desires more than other wizards. But even for other wizards, these are precisely the kind of people that migth have a more rarified perception about who they want to be with. It comes with the territory when you're someone whose belief shapes the world

For potent wizards, the very fact that you can just make someone beautifull, or summon sex spirits whenever you want, migth make mages inured against such allures - much like how porn stars sometimes don't search sex when choosing companions outside their job (or so I have heard, I don't have a study or anything). At that point, you migth as well appreciate other cualities to that beauty you've come to take for granted.

The Akashic Porn Star: She pushes herself to the limit on the set as a way of testing herself. The porn is infused with her Mind Magick, inspiring curiosity in viewers about how she does it. She bestows her carnal delights on the most humble, mindful man she can find.

And that's before talking about powerful wizards who have chosen to become transhuman in some fashion - their desires migth be very hard to relate from the perspective of human beings

One of my NPCs, a Progenitor, has subordinated her sex drives in order to pursue her - Questing Avatar - goal. She is on the thirty mark and has App 3 without Life boosts. If having sex with someone is the best way to move toward her goal, she can unlock her accumulated sexual energy and spend it in a way that so overwhelms her lover that he will dedicate himself to her from that point forward. No Mind Magick involved.

And that's before even starting to consider that beauty it's in no small part a social construct (any passing study on the history of beauty can show you that) - and we know very well who constructs society (or at least belives to do so): What it's the sexual prefferences of the people that actualy decide what the standards are going to be in the future? .

So this is what I heard Naomi Wolf talk about. She wrote, "The Beauty Myth".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3jo...ritersFestival

How it feels like to be capable of being able to meet with the various concepts of beauty, and the conepts of partnership, and the rest of elements of human relationships, and then determine what's going to be desirable and/or good for yourself and others? The heck if I know, but I think that at that point "platonic love" migth have a whole new world of meanings for that person.

I'm totally getting an NPC concept. Order of Hermes Internet Poet. He has App1 and is not a Life Mage. He's got to have some Mind and Correspondence. His audience Feel the passion of his love poems through Magick embedded in them.

I don’t know awakening usually is because or causes a huge change in your world view. Which probably could change your priories on dating and romance and what you expect out of a Partner.

Like maybe know you talked with ghost and fought Wyrm spirts you appreciate the “proper” human fourms after seeing horrific mockeries of it. know even if there not what you would call them the common social Stan of beauty’s.

Throw someone into a nightmare of such horrors. When they wake up, the unrealistic standards that had held them back are cast aside, freeing them to finally find love and let it happen.

Or maybe a Rando Ophern that awoken uses a spell to make attractive women sleep with him ‘which is rape. Seriously even if they don’t see the implication like that Buffy episode.’

In the movies, it's female witches casting love spells on young men. There's no outcry surrounding this. The alcoholic beverage industry is one of the largest drivers of GDP, worldwide. It used to be considered normal for young men and women to meet at a Singles Nightclub where alcohol is served, get drunk to get past social anxiety and then go home together and have sex. Now, we are expected to join in the call to put him, not her, on the sex offenders' registry. The bars keep letting singles come in, drink and leave together. The business model hasn't changed that much, even as scrutiny of men's social activities has intensified.

I would hope Mages have an enlightened view and could be more nuanced in the way they analyze a situation.
Book of Secrets P214, High Crimes, "Violation (rape or other severe sexual, mental or spiritual molestation and abuse)"

Mages can see beyond human perceptions and know that the world is more complex than it is for most people. If we go into this being the World of Darkness, the horror elements for Mage are alienation (as they gain power and can do things they are less and less like normal humans) and the costs of power (most powerful spells take a lot of effort or some nasty sacrifices). That means most mages are going to struggle with becoming farther and farther out from normal humans.

I think most would have the self-discipline to put off the pursuit of power in order to not bloody their hands with nasty sacrifices.

With Willpower of 5+ and the power to shape the universe, it's unlikely that mages are as easily tempted as standard mortals. As for how their perceptions change, that depends on the mage, but they'll know that a lot of gender and sexuality as human societies view them are constructs. Being able to see beyond the constructs could make for major changes or not.

One can invent any gender identity that suits themself. The list is unending - an infinite spectrum. Mind 1, Life 1, Time 2 and Entropy 3 are required to keep track.

As for the genetic assumptions, well genetics have to be expressed, so since humans live in societies, it's hard to know how much attraction is innate and how much is innate and channelized by society.

Sexual Gatekeeping is a phenomenon where a group of people try to impose their moral standards on attractive young women, presuming they know who it is best exclude to guarantee her happiness. The Envious whispering poison into the ear of the Beautiful.

[Accelerator]

You got me there. Cute Verbena girl - marital bridge incinerated, ashes offered up to the gods for good fortune in love. However, this raises another issue from the Traditions' perspective. The Technocracy has an advantage in terms of Extraordinary Citizens. The institutions that do the intake are larger, operate at a profit and are more socially accepted than a Pagan or Wiccan conclave who are not even fully accepted by fellow Traditions in the Celestial chorus.

If tradition Mages pursue relationships exclusively with each other, they forgo the opportunity to draw in people who will become much needed Acolytes. A temporary secretary striving to get a permanent position in a company with ties to the Technocracy is unlikely to accept an invitation to attend some occult gathering. If there's a fit mysterious man who takes romantic interest in her, she might very well change her mind.

The Traditions cannot afford to be excusive and insular. They need to at least try to keep up with the Union's mass recruitment. So, Mage-Mage relationships might be "open" by necessity. Who's going to be jealous of a mere Sleeper?

That sounds really fucking skeevy. At that point, why can't you just use your own Life and Mind Spells to enhance alcolytes or servants or honeypots to reel them in? Homunculi, flesh golems, and clones are a thing.

The Mage with Appearance 7 is seen through by the Mage with Life 1. I think that is why Mages would sooner use these social buffs to pull prospective Sleeper Acolytes into close relationships to facilitate their development.

Is this true? Because a plastic surgery or gene-mod to get Appearance 7 is appearance 7. Life 1 tells you there was some alterations done, but doesn't detract from Appearance.

[HorizonParty2021]

That sounds really fucking skeevy. At that point, why can't you just use your own Life and Mind Spells to enhance alcolytes or servants or honeypots to reel them in? Homunculi, flesh golems, and clones are a thing.

If you are suggesting delegating Acolytes who you improve with Life and Mind to create honey pots, you are being skeevy by proxy, by your own standard. Pimping out flesh golems?? As a Mage who takes genuine interest in a Sleeper who you are seeing romantically, you are guiding them toward awakening and bear responsibility in an unconcealed, direct way.

Is this true? Because a plastic surgery or gene-mod to get Appearance 7 is appearance 7. Life 1 tells you there was some alterations done, but doesn't detract from Appearance.

Those two examples are different where a Life scan is concerned. The Life Scan shows the Pattern as it is suppose to express itself, with the Plastic Surgery sitting on the surface in stark contrast. In the case of a Gene-Mod, you are changing the Life Pattern to uniformly manifest the desired features. In that case, the Mage doing the scan knows an improvement has been made that is permanent, rather than fake. His Magickal Perception and what he sees with normal view don't clash.

[Astromancer]

Mages are on paths of becoming and transformation. So it seems to me they'll start out at some human point and keep changing. Mind 1 or Spirit 1 would change how you see people. Take the example of the Appearance 3 Waitress, maybe as an awakened mage I can see the truth of her heart. Maybe I now know her real beauty and wouldn't trade an hour with her for all the attentions of Helen of Troy and fifty like her.

If as a Mage, I am as aware of souls and minds as bodies, perhaps my sexual choices and preferences would make little sense to outside observers, even other mages.

[Dataweaver]

That strikes me as more of a Mage: the Awakening thing, where everyone has an always-active mage sight that overlays a magical reality over their regular senses. In Mage: the Ascension, you don't get any sort of special insight unless you ask for it. (And that's not even getting into the fact that it needs to fit your Focus, both in terms of how you ask and what you get. If your Mind • Effects manifest as readings on a Star Trek tricorder-like device, that's going to come across very differently from focusing your eyes and seeing personality flaws manifest as skin blemishes or the like.)

But I get your point. Yes, if I had a way of reading someone's mind or soul, it could definitely affect what I think about them.

[Aleph]

But I get your point. Yes, if I had a way of reading someone's mind or soul, it could definitely affect what I think about them.

If we get to that, there's also the Resonance. It's usually stronger in mages and magical stuff, but everything has one.

If someone has a good Resonance, that migth impregnate the places where that person lives and works, attracting the atention of benevolent spirits - and, why not, spiritually sensitive mages that want to chill out, and migth seek such places to do so.

[Accelerator]

If we get to that, there's also the Resonance. It's usually stronger in mages and magical stuff, but everything has one.

If someone has a good Resonance, that migth impregnate the places where that person lives and works, attracting the atention of benevolent spirits - and, why not, spiritually sensitive mages that want to chill out, and migth seek such places to do so.

Unrefined and immature giggles

[Enginseer-42]

Honestly, I seriously wonder if anyone with the Temperament needed to become a mage really has it in them to form a healthy relationship with anyone.

Keep in mind, a mage is someone driven. They're the living incarnation of the Great Man theory of history. This is someone who, when the world told them they were wrong they told the world it was wrong and made it true. "You can't conjure fireballs!" "WATCH ME."

A one of the most interesting things I see about Mage is it's lack of a morality stat. And the answer is, that if mages had a morality score, it would go to zero instantly. Because a mage is fundamentally incapable of admitting they were wrong. That it was their view of the world that was faulty.

Now imagine how such a person would fit into a relationship.