Secret Infrastructure Resources and Population

[Eldagusto]

So I can see why Traditions don’t collect massive resources or infrastructure on the Material world but It’s different for the Techies. They have the organization and internal structure to pool massive resources so besides the need to cover up things when the rest of humanity advances what stops them from building massive deep underground structures larger then cities and secret transportation infrastructure. With basic automation and the ability to transmute matter and bring forth substance ex nihilos why would they not have insanely large amounts of well everything, to some extent the books already assume they do do this with their superior resources and satellites but they also go a long way to make it appear like it comes from dipping into mortal resources.



And in the same department what stops techies from winning Consensus by cultivating massive populations of sleepers controlled and indoctrinated into a culture they fabricated. So hundreds of millions of sleepers in secret nations below the crust? This goes easily into the billions if include methods like cloning and Umbral Constructs but those were not as reliable and I consider them more part of the other world then the material and material consensus. Perhaps a large portion of the spirit worlds metaphysical inertia has even come from lost Mage settlements over the millennia.

[Gryffon15]

I want to start by saying that I do agree that the Technocratic Union should have a great deal of material resources. They should have buildings in every metropolis, legions of front companies, and their tendrils in every major apparatus of the modern world with some being entirely for Union use. They should be one of the most influential groups in the world, compared to conspiracies like the Camarilla or mega-corps like PENTEX.

As to the latter question, I think it comes into the difficulty of reality bearing the brunt of something like that. An underground city complex could not be supported by consensus and so it needs to be housed in the umbra to avoid immediate collapse and that means that it’s going to have a limited impact on reality itself and it brings us to the intense question of: when does a clone or an artificial human develop an avatar, if they do at all.

This comes up not only with the creations of the Progenitors but even just with rearing and raising them off-material, you then have to figure out how to usher them back to the material, if that’s what you want to do, without causing an extreme backlash from an influx of humans entering material reality that were previously unaccounted for.

Part of the reason that I don’t think the Union does anything this radical is that they are still winning the Ascension Conflict. The technocratic paradigm is still predominant throughout much of the world, even if mystic paradigms remain tenacious and even experience some growth and some localized successes. The situation isn’t bad enough to risk flying that closely to the sun yet.

That said the idea of a horror one-shot where a crew or Void Engineers is sent to investigate a colony ship that was lost after attempting a return to near space and discovering whatever sabotaged the attempt and doomed the mission sounds like a ton of fun, not to mention just the setting fluff of a ghost colony floating through deep space.

[Eldagusto]

But how does it collapse I’d say it’s essentially composed of conventional methods, so mundane engineering and resources, but just using magic to have quick development and high dicepools when engineering and designing?

[Dataweaver]

Colonies in the Umbra don't help with influencing the Consensus on Earth. They also require special protections against Void Adaptation, making them especially high-maintenance.

Underground cities on Earth are an interesting theory; but as of M20's introduction of Reality Zones, they don't particularly work as a way to dominate the Consensus: you'd basically just have another (subterranean) Reality Zone.

That said, a potentially effective strategy for the Technocracy to try would be to spread their followers into non-Technocratic Zones: buy a plot of land in a Localized Zone, build housing for hundreds or thousands of new residents, and fill it with Technocrat-friendly Sleepers. Pretty soon, you've flipped the Zone to the Technocracy.

If you can't get the existing demographics to side with you, change the demographics.

[HorizonParty2021]

I'm always in favor of exploring an idea, if it will make for good material for someone's chronicle.

One of the first things the construction plans would have to account for is Heat. The further down you go, the more heat there is coming from all directions. The place needs to be constantly sending heat up to the surface. The first thing they would build is a cooling tower on the surface. If it also services an existing power plant, its presence wouldn't be questioned. The walls would have to have pipes with water running through them to keep them cool. The steam would be sent up to the cooling tower to be cooled and returned.

If the heat is intense enough, it could be converted to electricity in a geothermal turbine. That reduces the energy cost of pumping water and steam. Maybe the people who live there are Genetically Engineered to withstand high temperatures.

Using Sphere Magick, things get a bit easier. With Forces, one type of energy can be converted to another. Just have an effect that turns all that heat into ambient light.

Prime, Matter and Entropy to strengthen the structure. A Force Field to withstand tectonic shifts.

Life Effects supporting vertical agriculture. Raise fish and make it an aquaponic system. The Mediterranean diet without leaving home - or having to poke your head up.

Correspondence, Matter, Forces to take cold air from high altitude in through a tiny portal.

[Accelerator]

So I can see why Traditions don’t collect massive resources or infrastructure on the Material world but It’s different for the Techies. They have the organization and internal structure to pool massive resources so besides the need to cover up things when the rest of humanity advances what stops them from building massive deep underground structures larger then cities and secret transportation infrastructure. With basic automation and the ability to transmute matter and bring forth substance ex nihilos why would they not have insanely large amounts of well everything, to some extent the books already assume they do do this with their superior resources and satellites but they also go a long way to make it appear like it comes from dipping into mortal resources.

Well, I thought they would have that, actually. Yup, incredible amounts of nearly anything a human with money can access. Tanks, planes, guns, weapons, skilled personnel (A.I. and Homunculi), space, Space, raw material, fame, connections, command over the cultural zeitgiest, heavy machinery, chemicals, food, and everything.

I think some of the problem is:

Yes, you can build massive infrastructure and everything. That costs money, a lot of money, and also requires things like upkeep and maintenance. Underground structures can be built, but is copiously and horrendously expensive to maintain and keep safe. Usage to do so would require Hypertech, hypertech which can be better used. Better to make war-towers and supply depots where you can use it. Also, they have incredible resources... but not infinite. Which means that there's always an opportunity cost. Maybe you can get that hypertech to create new air for an underground city... or use the primium and quintessence to make that sweet new attack satellite.

And in the same department what stops techies from winning Consensus by cultivating massive populations of sleepers controlled and indoctrinated into a culture they fabricated. So hundreds of millions of sleepers in secret nations below the crust? This goes easily into the billions if include methods like cloning and Umbral Constructs but those were not as reliable and I consider them more part of the other world then the material and material consensus. Perhaps a large portion of the spirit worlds metaphysical inertia has even come from lost Mage settlements over the millennia.

No one cares about underground. In an underground city backed up by hypertech, it's a technocratic construct/ laboratory. Of course hypertech works there. Take out your technomagick and put it into into a modern city. Yeah, then there's going to be a problem.

[Muad'Dib]

And in the same department what stops techies from winning Consensus by cultivating massive populations of sleepers controlled and indoctrinated into a culture they fabricated. So hundreds of millions of sleepers in secret nations below the crust? This goes easily into the billions if include methods like cloning and Umbral Constructs but those were not as reliable and I consider them more part of the other world then the material and material consensus. Perhaps a large portion of the spirit worlds metaphysical inertia has even come from lost Mage settlements over the millennia.

From where did you get the idea that Technocrats could cultivate hidden communities of more than perhaps tens of thousands? As I see it, this would be highly Paradoxical.
Also, even if the Technocracy could cultivate such a colony, wouldn't a better use of resources be to cultivate the influence that they have over the hundreds of thousands (or millions) of mundane humans on Earth? It just takes some Procedures and Extraordinary Citizen involvement to secure more influence, possible actions, and resources on Earth. Currently the Technocracy appears to be winning in regard to the Consensus. Not only there is this 'scientific skepticism', but there is also the belief that technology is the answer to all problems. Why not focus wholly on Earth if the successes are many and constant?

[Eldagusto]

From where did you get the idea that Technocrats could cultivate hidden communities of more than perhaps tens of thousands? As I see it, this would be highly Paradoxical.
Also, even if the Technocracy could cultivate such a colony, wouldn't a better use of resources be to cultivate the influence that they have over the hundreds of thousands (or millions) of mundane humans on Earth? It just takes some Procedures and Extraordinary Citizen involvement to secure more influence, possible actions, and resources on Earth. Currently the Technocracy appears to be winning in regard to the Consensus. Not only there is this 'scientific skepticism', but there is also the belief that technology is the answer to all problems. Why not focus wholly on Earth if the successes are many and constant?

How would it be paradoxical? A society separated from the rest of the globe would form a localized consensus Zone, and enough folks, especially if you can figure a way to integrate them secretly like with I don't know call centers or construction or some secret job it would start tampering with the wider consensus. If you started getting in the millions you could make actual shifting. And a lot of this requires minimal vulgar effects beyond the initial development of secret infrastructure. The nature of automation is already the benefit.

[Aleph]

Yup. And the Technocracy already did this to some extent, in their space colonies. Before the Storm, they used big colonies to test new social theories and whatnot.

In principle, it's do-able. However, there are a few considerations to be taken.

---

One it's that a place that's too detached from the Consensus might get shunted into the Umbra.

Earth once included places like Lemuria and the lando of giants. Not any more. Arguably the same happened to the Hollow Earth. It's hard to know how much of this it's places being send to the Umbra and how much of this it's places that were part of the Umbra but the Gauntlet was soo thin that normal people could get there by walking (it would have to be a rating of 0). But then, it also happens nowdays when Marauders and their shenanigans get too out of control - they get shoved into the Umbra.

I think there's enough weigth to the idea that "the odd" migth end on the far side of the Gauntlet as to consider it. After all, under most Mage cosmology the Umbrascape it's conformed by fantastic places that "cannot exist" - and such a sci-fy Construct would easily fill the bill

---

Another it's that the Technocracy already has the upper hand of the Consensus. Tech works pretty much everywhere humans gather in big numbers, their problem it's not so much with their mojo bineg believable, but with the fact that Traditional beliefs persist in such a world thanks to hard-coded cultural tradition.

To that purpose, it seems to be much easier to add a new belief than to erase existing beliefs. Technocracy made most basic tech work even in small towns - yet these towns are ALSO often Zones for some Traditional mojo. You have Traditional Zones within highly advanced cities, too.

Note that adding people migth not be enough to erase these beliefs. I would say that something like that migth happen if the demographics change radically (the small town becomes a city - and even then, the mystical Zone migth remain as a neigborhood thing). The problem here it's that Zones can coexist to some extent, to change this you need to change the comunity and that requires more social engineering than just adding new, bigger, comunity

Last. but not least, let's contemplate that if you add millons uppon millons of people, changing the demographics from "nohwere", it's very hard to believe nobody will notice. And then the secret it's going to be out. And this is WoD, the secret can never be out of the box.
Paradox has been shown to do crazy stuff in these cases, like Czar Vargo almost conquering the world getting forgotten by everyone, or the old tale of the alien invasion that got transformed into a radio joke. But then, these forms of Paradox are largely fiat. So maybe this doesn't happen, and the setting breaks instead.

This sounds like a plan an Etherite would have. Secret underground bases with crazy experiments to change the face of the war are very much their thing. And Traditions are very much in need of more people believing in their stuff, and don't care about erasing current beliefs in technology either. Once you have a small Zone protecting you from Paradox, it's easy to make all the infrastructure you need to make it grow with magic(k) Science! (Of course, that's when the MiB get sent. And that's why we can't have nice things)

[Muad'Dib]

How would it be paradoxical? A society separated from the rest of the globe would form a localized consensus Zone, and enough folks, especially if you can figure a way to integrate them secretly like with I don't know call centers or construction or some secret job it would start tampering with the wider consensus. If you started getting in the millions you could make actual shifting. And a lot of this requires minimal vulgar effects beyond the initial development of secret infrastructure. The nature of automation is already the benefit.

I think there is more to the setting than the current outline of what Magick is Paradoxical. Such an extensive undertaking - speeding up the development of millions of mundane humans - would still attract Paradox, and lots of it. Hence I think that the Technocracy would not do this if they have the alternative of establishing footholds on Earth via Sympathizers.
I also think the Technocracy does not have the resources to do this. They have lots and various resources - on Earth, and in regard to Earth - but that does not translate into them being able to do such an undertaking.

[Dataweaver]

Aleph makes some good points as to why a massive demographic change would likely be a bad idea. But I'd say that that's less a matter of “winning the War by changing the demographics” being unworkable and more a matter of it requiring a bit of finesse.

As well, there should be some sort of suppressive effect from the majority population against the minority, or else there wouldn't be much reason for the Ascension War: if Local Zones can coexist with Technocratic Zones without any difficulties, then what's the harm in letting the Technocracy do their thing, so long as you get to do your thing as well? More specifically, in terms of demographics, there's no harm in a bunch of Technocrat sympathizers moving into your town: if they don't make formerly Coincidental stuff Vulgar, they can do their thing while you do yours.

Granted, the Technocracy isn't exactly a live-and-let-live sort of organization; so from a more mundane angle, letting a bunch of Technocrat-friendly immigrants into your town is a bad idea because they'll be inclined to try to take over and start telling you what to do. But I tend to prefer portraying the magickal side of things as a reflection of the mundane side: of you tend toward being authoritarian, your Magick (or in this case, Enlightened Science) will tend to be authoritarian as well. And in terms of Reality Zones, this would tend to mean that Technocratic Zones don't just make the things they think are true Coincidental; they also make things they think are false Vulgar: part of the “One True Way” mentality is that alternatives have to be shut down.

[Aleph]

Unbelief it's most definitely a thing, or there would be dragons everywhere.

When I talk about Zones coexisting, I'm focusing more into the "localized" nature of the Zones (that allows Sanctums and Haunted Houses to be Zones)...That's why I say that if you turn a town of traditional believers into a city by moving lots of "vat atheists" there, you migth still have a neigborhood that's a traditional Zone - unless you do some social engineering there to disolve that group (that may not be necessary if the group wasn't tigthly joined by tradition in the first place)

That's not to say that there won't be an almost natural effect of erosion - It's a classic trope (and one that holds much truth, as I have seen in real life) that young townsfolk of faraway towns often scoff about tradition and dream to go to the big city.

W/o adding anything supernatural or "special" to Technocratical Zones, stuff like showing and praising role models and lifestiles that don't agree with those of traditional beliefs will erode any zone (Syndicate are masters in this form of combat)

If a young indian believes levitating trough hard-core meditation migth be feasible, but traveling in jet it's so much sexier. Then proceeds to leave traditional lifestile, and has a family...that's a win if not in this generation, in the next that's not likely to be exposed to such arcaic beliefs in the first place (or at least not to the same extent).

Only because of that, having a "technocratic surge" could be a problem, even if not an immediate one.

Now, I think that if you make technocratical zones to actively cause Vulgarity regardless of localized beliefs, you risk to disolve the whole concept of Reality Zones - these would have to be very remote to exist, and would never exist inside a city. That's clearly not the idea behind Zones

I do agree that adding a demographic "with finesse" can work - BUT the finesse won't be just on making it so people don't realize that this mass of people come from nowhere. The finesse would have to contemplate the integration of these people inside the comunities as a way to disrupt the current Paradigm from the inside (w/o being "infected" by the local beliefs nor exposing the conspiration - of course). Well, that's if you want to do it fast (that is, to improve uppon the mere exposure depicted above).

[Shakanaka]

You know, I never bought the idea that Technocracy could be the predominate faction in Mage. It makes no sense. Just because they introduce technology, doesn't mean non-Awakened folk can't either. Not only that if we take our world into account and how WoD alone is supposed to be it but more bizarre and supernatural, the Technocracy should have only middling influence at best- not an overarching one. Yeah sure technology is there, but the common man or women don't think about it or have strong beliefs to it. At the highest echelons of government, half of that in the US alone don't believe in climate change (if the Technocracy is said to practically control or influence almost all modern governments, how come climate change isn't attended too when the Technocracy supposedly wants to help humanity?). A lot of people believe that the Earth is flat. Some people don't believe in vaccines. Religion has somewhat of a downturn, but its still stronger than ever. People in the real world still have intrinsic superstitious beliefs that conversely in the lens of oWoD to boot, can't ever be erased despite the Technocracy's best efforts.

In the West I can see the Technocracy being the strongest, but in other parts of the world? Not really. And even in the West there are slews of people with convicted beliefs not of the paradigm the Technocracy wants to instill, but they can't scrub out. I think realistically the Technocracy has the most influence in Urban environs (like the book suggests), but in areas that are upscale and office aligned. You also mention something about India- in the scope of oWoD (not our world of course), the local Awakened in that country should be the strongest in the Mage setting and oWoD because not only would their Paradigms be accepted in the norm, they can actively train up their Arete easier because of that fact and lack of Paradox. Same for Africa (continent of course, not as a country) despite the upstages of Islam and Christianity there. They still have many traditional practices and rituals that still exist attributed to Animism. Actually I'd say almost everywhere non-Technocratic paradigm should be strong or near balanced strength.

I dunno, that's just me and correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aleph]

Well, you're not wrong

Except maybe at:

Just because they introduce technology, doesn't mean non-Awakened folk can't either.

This is debatable. At least, non-Awakened are able to make technology. However Mage metaplot it's strongly based on the idea that new technology it's first introduced by mages (not always the Technocracy, though). The game IS strongly based on the idea that "great men" change the world (and that these are mages),so this point it's important.

I do believe sleepers could be able to improve upon existing technology - effectively making "new" one albeit at a slower pace - but the game requires "revolutionary" changes to be the product of Mages.

---

You're not wrong in most of your argument. This is a real problem of Mage, but I think there's a reasoning that can explain the predominance of the Technocratical Paradigm regardless of actual belief systems, that I would ask you to consider.

In a functional sense, when you do anything at all, you (as all humans) believe that action will have results. You migth also believe there are deeper reasons behind those results, but most of the time you're not going to ponder about it. Most people don't care about why their legs can carry them trough space, just that they do.

And here's the catch:In Mage the Consensus it's functional - the *why¨* isn't important, only the *how* :

Magick becomes Coincident if people believes that what's happening "it's not impossible" . If the reasoning Mages use to explain why a spell it's working mattered at all to Paradox, then no Hermetic would ever be able to cast a Coincidental spell - because even the most Coincident Entropy magick to get good luck in cards will have a convoluted magickal explanation about wizardry allowing to become God and control fate - and most people certainly don't believe wizardy does all of that.

However, wonder of wonders, it's doesn't matter that people don't believe Enochian sigils alter fate - all that matters for a spell to be Coincident it's that the mage believes, and people finds the effect to be plausible. It doesn't matter one bit if people believes it's plausible because science or because of angels. It doesn't matter if the explanation people have coincides with that of the mage or not. All that matters it's that it's factible, not why.

You believe that tech works - and then it works. In South America most of the population it's christian, yet they also believe that tech works. City christians pray, but also go to the doctor when they're sick like in any civilized place - presumably because they believe being healed follows that step. Now, maybe they believe that medicine works because of angels but Paradox doesn't care about why your magick works, only that it does.

If you like worplay: Technocracy has this implied in their very name. The philosophical difference between Science and Technology it's that the first it's a form of knowledge (it seeks explanations, it cares about the *why*) while the latter it's about results (it cares about the *how*).

However, note that even people that believes in magic tends to also believe it's rare or subtle.

Prayer it's seen as necessary to ensure results, but note how the loudest miracles of religion (like parting the seas or raising the dead) are gated to "special" people. Christians use cars when they want to travel. Praying for miraculous angelic teleportation would be seen with more askance than calling a taxi even by believers - hence the tech works and angelic teleportation doesn't.

If you think about it, the way "belief in the supernatural" works in the real world it's very much resonant with how magick works in Mage - you won't see many people praying to be miraculously teleported, but praying to make a taxi arrive safe to destiny?. Yeah, that would be normal. If it happens w/o too much supernatural crazyness, it would be Coincident. Who knows?, maybe even works for sleepers that really believe

M20 adress the isue of most of the world being influenced by religions and other mystic beliefs by stating that the Ascencion War it's not won (a much needed statement for the Mage line, if it came a bit late) - but the Technocracy it's still the most dominant faction (or, maybe, the Nephandi are - but they figth the war by infiltrating and using the other factions).

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This explanation leaves a few things to be desired. Like climate change deniers.

For one, let's tackle the issue of not believing in climate change to make it disappear: If Eartly Foundations are a thing, that may not work. That could explain why Technocracy doesn't use it's very powerful influence in science to squash the theory.

And why they haven't eradicated the movement yet? It may be the easy way out, but I think Nephandi were made for this - Hey, climate change deniers are known to be paid by rich people in charge of the oil industry and other contaminating and warmongery Pentex-like people. So I would buy that. And the fact they're christians that believe "God won't allow such trajedy" it's the icing on the cacke - Eartly Foundations aren't so easily denied, so Nephandi can add a layer of irony to their efforts

[Shakanaka]

Huh. A very interesting side of the argument I didn't put much thought into before. I agree with a lot of your points, but I'm still kinda on the bench toward a few things.. Paradox only reacts in accordance with the Consensus and if the area you're in still collectively beliefs in something, your magick shouldn't accrue anything, right? Yes Paradox doesn't care about the why (what your Paradigm is shaped around to enact Effects), but since Awakened can shape reality directly- they can make what they do get to the stage of Paradox accepting what they do works.

In the scope of the oWoD universe like I mention before, stuff that would be hocus pocus in our reality done by scammers (say placebo elixir medicine) can reliably be done (though even in the oWoD universe too, non-Awakened scammers with no Arete at all would still exist of course) by the Awakened. The technology Enlightened Paradigm of the Technology has slower results than just simple Life Effects that, say a Guru in India (why is this country our consistent point of reference all of a sudden? lol) based on Arete can heal almost on a drop of the hat. Its just curious to me how can the Technocracy be so dominant in the universe that is oWoD where many supernatural elements are static to that universe that aren't affected by Consensus or Paradox.

I guess its to be attributed with the Technocracy simply inventing weaponry that is more reliable than straight Arete based combat Awakened used (i.e gunpower weaponry and disseminating them to the Sleepers). Magick warfare is strong, but OOC (that is misrolls from a "Successes" standpoint) and ICly its prone to finickyness. EDIT: And what you also say with basic technology being ubiquitous everywhere.