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  • #16
    India is being pointed to because of its population. If the Consensus was simply a “majority vote” system, then the most populated nations on Earth would be the ones dominating the Consensus. Reality Zones help with this by making the Consensus regional instead of global; but even within a country like India, the nature of reality isn't always determined by a popularity contest.

    I've got a lengthy rant on my views of the nature of the Consensus and how it doesn't necessarily correlate to Reality; and I do tend to think that Enlightened Science has an inherent edge in the Ascension War due to Scientists making an effort to try to understand just what the Earthly Foundations are and to build their technology accordingly; and in practical terms, this results in “Technocratic” Reality Zones more readily taking hold even if the local population isn't entirely on board with it. As one infamous conservative pundit is fond of saying, facts don't care about your feelings.

    That said: in the world of Mage, this is a tendency, not an absolute. While it's possible for a minority view that's supported by the likes of Earthly Foundations to still hold sway over a more popular fad, you'll be even better off if your views enjoy majority support. And conversely, I see the MRev concept of Historical Inertia as having a place even in M20; and its role is similar to, but distinct from, Earthly Foundations: Historical Inertia means that the effectiveness of long-held beliefs isn't going to go away overnight, even if you do swamp the locals with a massive influx of Consensus “voters” who are loyal to your cause. If you try to do anything too big, too fast, you'll get pushback.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dataweaver
      Earthly Foundations are and to build their technology accordingly; and in practical terms, this results in “Technocratic” Reality Zones more readily taking hold even if the local population isn't entirely on board with it. As one infamous conservative pundit is fond of saying, facts don't care about your feelings.


      But the facts in real life are different from the facts of oWoD. The stuff that can't be replicated in real-life (say instant teleportation with Correspondence, Evoking Fireballs from your hands with Forces and Prime, healing deep gashes with just the palm of your hand) can be done by the Awakend easily. Sure you make eat some Paradox if you do so infront of Sleepers, but once the Effect is still unleashed and in reality; and conversely in areas that accept your Paradigm, no Paradox at all... because Paradox only cares if your Effect is believed to be workable or reality and the Awakened can easily do that.

      It just seems inefficient to me that the Technocracy to shift the world to a Paradigm more closely with our real-life reality. Their Effects need much more inputs (more use of Instruments, Gadgets, Devices, generally slow moving, etc.) than the little-to-simple stuff the Arete non-Enlightened Awakened can do... but I guess this was one of the founding modus operandi of when it was the Order of Reason. They wanted to even the playing field so common humanity that is Asleep can have a chance against the OP Mages. But don't the Technocrats realize that since Neolithic times, everyone has had a specific specialization in society? Mages can do a lot of fantastical things (that can't be replicated IRL) in the oWoD universe that would really benefit humanity (such as curing cancer with simple Life and Prime magick or using Matter to help in construction projects, etc.).


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Shakanaka
        But the facts in real life are different from the facts of oWoD.
        Up to some extent, remember that oWoD it's "our world, but darker". Most historical facts remain largely the same, but with magical conspirations behind

        It just seems inefficient to me that the Technocracy to shift the world to a Paradigm more closely with our real-life reality.
        They don't want that, and arguably they didn't. Them taking advantage of Earthly Foundations notwithstanding.

        Technocracy "real life reality" was the middle ages. They made the world change from *that* to a world where very average men fly in metal beasts, people can comunicate trough magic cristals to any place on the globe, have libraries worth of knowledge in their pocket devices...etc. Maybe it wasn't all just on them, but they had a part - and I would say our world would have looked pretty magical and wonderous to people of antiquity

        And, no, we know WoD middle ages weren't full of easy magical miracles "on demand", because DA: Mage exists.

        Their Effects need much more inputs (more use of Instruments, Gadgets, Devices, generally slow moving, etc.) than the little-to-simple stuff the Arete non-Enlightened Awakened can do... but I guess this was one of the founding modus operandi of when it was the Order of Reason. They wanted to even the playing field so common humanity that is Asleep can have a chance against the OP Mages. But don't the Technocrats realize that since Neolithic times, everyone has had a specific specialization in society? Mages can do a lot of fantastical things (that can't be replicated IRL) in the oWoD universe that would really benefit humanity (such as curing cancer with simple Life and Prime magick or using Matter to help in construction projects, etc.).
        It's not just that. Mages are very special people. They were always too rare. They were always too powerful.

        You can't expect most mages to dedicate their lives to help people. And you can't expect most mages *not* to abuse of this power for their own gain in expense of the good of the many, like the OoH did when they were on top in Europe (to be fair, Technocracy it's guilty of this too)

        I don't think the Craftmasons were too ingenuous here. They knew that wizard-kings aren't good for the population by first hand experience with the OoH, and most magical systems are geared towards living a life in accordance with the divine / the supernatural law - that is (or so Craftmasons had every reason to believe as part of the OoH), towards making more wizard-kings. Improving what humanity already was doing (plowing the fields, building their homes, etc...hard work stuff) was a clever move, I think, to both take power from mages and improve the quality of life at the same time. Even if being so "anti-wizard" was a mistake in the long run, I don't think one can really blame them given their previous experiences.

        Now there's a clear advantage for normal humans in humanity being able to do stuff by themselves. But also for mages. People have needs all the time, every day of the year. Mages would have to work very hard to fill the demand, and we know they won't - not even Technocrats want to do this (that's why they mass produce stuff).

        And there's no reason to think one can easily "mass produce" or "teach" mystic magick to the big masses. Again, mages are special people - what they make seem easy may not be so easy for the common man. Comming back to India: Siddhi it's a magic that's supposed to be in the purview of buddhists, yoguis, guru, etc...but have you seen what you need to do to reach the level to work such miracles? Siddhi means, among other things, "perfection" and "success" ... Yeah, magick isn't easy - regardless if it takes discipline, faith, or stuff.

        Perhaps mystical power it could be made more accessible in a world dominated by one mystical Paradigm, but I don't think there's enough solid proof as to declare that the Technocracy held humanity back by favoring technomancers. Albeit I could see a Traditionalist arguing that. It certainly wasn't more accessible when the OoR was founded, and now it's a bit late to kick the technomancers out anyway.
        Last edited by Aleph; 11-30-2020, 04:00 PM.

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        • #19
          I'd take this one step further and say that favoring technomancy not only didn't hold humanity back; it was necessary for the Technocracy to achieve what it did.

          On a purely theoretical level, every one of the mystical Foci of the Traditions requires cultivating some “special quality” in order to do the miraculous stuff that Magick can do. It's the reason why the game's “power stat” is called “Arete”, which roughly translates as “excellence”. It's also the reason why the Traditions tend to focus on the cream rising to the top, cultivating the best of the best, and seeing how far they can go. By contrast, the essence of technomancy is to put the emphasis on the instruments: the special ingredient that makes Enlightened Science work isn't some innate personal quality that gets channeled through the instruments; it's the process of using the instruments that's key. And that means that technomancy ought to be accessible by the Masses.

          On a more practical level, this has lead to the Technocracy having two subtle but impressive advantages in the Ascension War: process being key is arguably why Primal Utility is capable of extracting Quintessence from Primal Ventures, which the Technocracy can then use to fuel the production of Wonders; and again, because process is key, they can set up facilities where said production of Wonders can be done without an intimate personal investment in each one by the producers (i.e., no personal Quintessence spent on the process, and no Willpower dot expended to complete it). This comes at the cost of never being able to Work Without Focus or to discard your instruments (again, process is key); but given that that lets you mass-produce Devices, it's not that bad of a trade.

          My reference to building on Earthly Foundations was intended to address the question of why the Technocracy chose the instruments that it did instead of ones that would arguably be easier to use, or that were already “in fashion” at the time that they started their project: they found that by working with instruments that built on the Earthly Foundations, they were able to achieve the Coincidental edge more easily over a wide variety of Reality Zones that otherwise would have required tailored approaches for each Zone and a lack of an overall coherence to their work.

          It also gives some backing to their claim that they're working with an objective truth: while the Earthly Foundations aren't always the easiest way to go about your business, they are always there. And so, even in the deepest regions of the Amazon Rainforest where their hypertechnology tends to fail, the more basic technologies continue to work. (In game terms, Reality Zones only affect Awakened Magick/Enlightened Science; anything which is, or has become, “mundane technology” is utterly unaffected by them.) In effect, this is the third “secret weapon” of the Technocracy: they've found a way to expand on the Earthly Foundations, making mundane (and utterly reliable) things that were once Magickal (and finicky). It requires an alignment between Historical Inertia and the Earthly Foundations to achieve, which means that it's inherently slow; but the result is that cell phones are now mundane technology, not even Coincidental.

          But I seem to have drifted off-topic, so I'll stop now.
          Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-02-2020, 03:01 PM.


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