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  • Which Mages cooperate with Shapeshifters?

    Hello, Werewolf fan here with a question about Mage-Shapeshifter cooperation: when and where does it happen, and which Mages are involved?

    I know Nephandi and Black Spiral Dancers probably cooperate some of the time. And I know the stereotype of Dreamspeakers as allies to Shapeshifters. But... that's very vague. Potentially it's based on the stereotype that all "native" (="primitive") cultures must be 1. Dreamspeaker-producing, and 2. "close to nature". But there are a lot of spirits in the Umbra who are neither Gaian nor Middle Umbral, and many things Dreamspeakers could care about that have nothing to do with any Shapeshifter goals. Mages are mostly focused on human wellbeing and ascension, over other concerns.

    So I'm hoping for more detail, and for information that exists about such cooperation outside the usual suspects, please.


    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

  • #2
    Mage and shapeshifter cooperation like all things Mage, can happen with any particular group of mages and shapeshifters at any time and place.

    The Sahajiya (Cult of Ecstasy) and Verbena also have ties to shapechangers. The Fellowship of Pan in the Sahajiya are on good terms with Fianna, given the bardic traditions in each group. There is also a Maend tradition within the Sahajiya that has ties to the Black Furies. The Verbena and their focus on life may bring them in contact with the Children of Gaia and the Norse Verbena may have Get of Fenris connections.

    If you look at the Virtual Adepts and the Glass Walkers, both are the main digital experts of their factions, so even if they aren't many formal ties they certainly interact on the Digital Web.

    The Order of Hermes has a great deal of interest in arcane topics and has had a presence in Egypt, so some of their members have definitely encountered the Bubasti breed of the Bastet. While there are clear parts of the Hermetic Code about not making the fae mad at the Order (likely a carryover from Ars Magica), interactions with shapechangers are less clear. Since the Order of Hermes has many houses and once had a shapechanging house, House Bjornaer (a carryover from Ars Magica that gets put into the Verbena in official Mage lore), there's a possibility of contact.

    So, to paraphrase one of the writers who was working on Werewolf 5th edition, James Zambrano, who said there were ways to make a Native American person or a person following the Goth subculture as a believable character in any Mage group, there are many ways a Mage and a shapechanger could be friends.

    I'd look at the core beliefs of the Mage and the shapechanger and consider what factions they have. My Mage game, which is on hiatus, has an Akashic Brotherhood character with a Glass Walker Ahroun ally (player bought the Supernatural Ally merit). They don't have a lot in common, except both are learning how to live in society. The Mage had power and no responsibility, having Awakened as a child and using Mind to get what they wanted. Said Mage ended up in the Akashic Brotherhood as they tried to get him to redirect his desires to less selfish things. The Mage believes in meditation. The Glass Walker ally is an Ahroun who strives to wisely defend the tribe, for they are in enemy territory in Portland, Oregon. The Technocracy is all around and so are Wyrm creatures. As such, the Glass Walker is ready to rage, but he wants to be more than a weapon just pointed at a weak enemy--protecting the tribe means staying in control until it's time to rage. So, he's there to aid his Mage friend as both seek wisdom. As the Akashic Brotherhood character continues to display poor judgment by focusing on the material world , forgetting about his resources and making his allies use theirs to aid him, and taking Wisdom as his dump stat, he's actually grown further apart from the Glass Walker than other characters in the chantry. The Glass Walker likes the Verbena the most--she's working with the Garou in Portland to help them and respects their beliefs and she may not be a spider-spinning Weaver ally but recognizes the importance of structure.

    Since the Mage groupings except for the Crafts (now the Disparate Alliance) are broad groups, there are many ways a member of one group could fit in with a shapeshifter. So, think about the characters involved as people first and their values. Even the Technocracy has a reason to work with shapeshifters from time to time. . .


    Comment


    • #3
      I second much of what baaky said above, there are plenty of specific factions and groups which have plenty of reason to work with shape-shifters/changing breeds, for as many reasons as individuals on either side would have.

      To offer something a bit more substantial on top of that though, here’s some other factors I think could be relevant.

      Changing Breeds are intimately spiritual by nature and tied to what Awakened classify as the Middle Umbra. All Changing Breeds are spirit and material and they are associated with the umbra in that way, whether they serve Gaia or a facet of the Triat. Some serve life through Gaia and the Balanced Triat, others serve individual aspects of the Triat with either the Balance or that specific aspect as a focus, the latter being rather more dangerous. Changing Breeds each feel an obligation to serve and protect Life and Spiritual Balance (Gaia) in their specific ways. The reason that many Changing Breeds are wary of Awakened (or ‘Name-Breakers’ and ‘Sorcerers’) is that the Awakened alter the nature of things and impact the Balance, though this can be positive or negative, and at times seem to subvert humanity’s role and/or threaten Gaia, particularly those who abuse spirits and harness caerns (sacred places of spiritual power) as reservoirs of quintessence. However those who show an investment in honorably cooperating with spirits and using their gifts to assist Gaia and Spiritual Balance will eventually find many willing to cooperate with them, many Changing Breeds will remain ever wary of humans who have gained power beyond their station, role, and understanding.

      On the other side of the coin...

      Awakened, whether mystical or technomantic, eventually come to acknowledge the existence of aspects of reality beyond the material one and the energy that is apart of but not entirely made up of scientifically acknowledged energy, while I’ll call ‘Quintessence’. All Awakened will interpret the Umbra and Quintessence through their own paradigm and here is where many problems originate. The Changing Breeds are often very orthodox within their own beliefs and they tend to take poorly to suggestions that their beliefs are invalid or incorrect. While some practices such as those found amongst traditions like the Verbenae or Kha’vadi (Dreamspeakers) will have an easier time cooperating with the Changing Breed understanding, while some arrogant Will-Workers (particularly Hermetics and the Technocratic Union) would not cooperate with the Changing Breed paradigm. This has historically led to caerns, places of intense spiritual power and religious significance to the Changing Breeds, being used as reservoirs of Quint to be tapped as necessary. This is one of the most fundamental divides between Changing Breeds and Awakened, one which any successful cooperation between the groups would need to acknowledge and understand. However, many Awakened who are able to avoid imposing their paradigm or trampling over Changing Breed practices can find a wealth of resources available from an alliance. The Changing Breeds are diverse and gifted and those (primarily mystical) paradigms which can cooperate can gain great benefits from that cooperation.

      Specifically, I repeat that I think that the best relationships will likely be formed between those of reasonably similar spiritual paradigms, Verbenae & Kha’vadi alongside crafts such as the Bata’a and Sisters of Hippolyta will have the best chances. After that you start seeing specific instances and other categories.

      The Sahajiya (Cultists of Ecstasy), Chakravanti (Euthanatoi), Akashyana (Akashic Brotherhood) are all mystical enough that associations will be plausible if the right groups of Awakened meet the right groups of Changing Breeds. The Akashyana and Chakravanti will have more contact with the Eastern Concordiat of Changing Breeds (I.e. the Emerald Court/Hengeyokai) while the Ecstatics could cooperate with most spiritualists on the right day.

      A Glass Walker could cooperate with a Virtual Adept but the Etherite might have a harder time. The Choristers and the Hermetics will have the most issues because of their history and paradigms. Many human-born Changing Breeds are wary of human monotheism as a threat to their cultural traditions, though monotheism exists within the spectrum of Changing Breed beliefs. However associations with the Inquisition and Witch-Hunters, however unfounded, can be difficult to overcome. Meanwhile the Hermetics suffer from a historic tendency to write the Changing Breeds off as ‘primitive bone-throwers’ and the Changing Breeds have long memories. It would be difficult to overcome.

      However even the most difficult circumstances of the Crafts and Traditions will be nothing compared to the difficulties faced by Technocrats. Even if one is lucky enough to be in a position where working with a Changing Breed wouldn’t be anathema, you need to be able to cooperate with them. Then you have to find Changing Breeds willing to tolerate your ‘Weaver Taint’ and acknowledge your obligations. While not impossible, it’s dangerous and difficult.

      Nephandi are much simpler though. They will practice with any of the above groups as needed and deal with similar circumstances. If a Changing Breed discovers their true nature though, only two outcomes will follow. Either the Changing Breeds acknowledge their fellow ‘Children of the Wyrm’ and ignore them, offer to cooperate or establish dominance or something else happens. The Nephandi finds themselves besieged by living furies with supernatural gifts, spiritual power, a strong support network, and a never-ending hatred for the Nephandi caused by the insult of their sheer existence to the Mother of the Changing Breeds.

      And few outsiders ever survive disrespecting Mother where a Changing Breed can learn of it.

      (Marauders are a toss-up depending on their inclination. Either they’re viewed by Changing Breeds as dangerous examples of humans gone mad with power or they are respected and feared while given a healthy distance as they watch the ‘Wyld Priests’ work themselves out.)

      Comment


      • #4
        I would say cooperation happens when the following elements are in play:

        1) They have immediate common enemies that would justify working together
        2) The mage's approach to magic is something the Garou could respect or trust because it fits their paradigm. Likely candidates would be among the Dreamspeakers, Verbena, and some Order of Hermes. But weirder combinations are possible - a group of Virtual Adepts might fit in with certain kinds of Glass Walkers; Hollow Ones with Bone Gnawers, etc.
        3) The mage has somehow demonstrated qualities that engender trust - mage is kinfolk, has previous experience with Garou, trusted associates, has a reputation for honesty, reliability, etc.
        4) The mage is willing to defer to Garou on matters they consider critical and not open to negotiation - secrecy of the caern, not asking too many questions, etc.
        5) The mage is respectful and does her best to meet Garou and tribal culture.

        I imagine most Garou-Mage cooperation is based on very old, established covens/chantries with long standing ties to Garou, whose membership recruits and mentors people to act appropriately with the Garou and have established ceremonies, procedures, etc. of introducing new members that allow the Garou to assess the new member and slowly build up trust over time. In other words, the group of Mages have a long relationship with the Garou and exchange chiminage with a local sept, being accepted over time provided certain boundaries are not crossed.

        Brand new mages who show up suddenly want to ally probably fail spectacularly by inadvertently offending Garou in any number of ways.

        While we can say certain Tribes and certain Traditions are more likely to do this or that, or fit in; I think this is mainly a case of the specifics of the local situation and both sides being important.

        Comment


        • #5
          In my current game, one of my players plays an Order of Hermes Mage PC who is also a Fianna kinfolk, and has a Fianna sister, a Fianna son, and a Silver Fang daughter (yes, she's a loving woman.) I'm about to start a campaign where she's been set to lead a small Chantry in Atlanta and where the Fianna Tribe will approach her as a powerful Kinfolk ally (she may be a Namebreaker, but she's *our* Namebreaker, and she's given birth to two people who underwent the First Change!) She will find herself being pulled into the politics of the Fianna Tribe simply by virtue of having powerful Garou relatives and being powerful herself. She's a Jerbiton, not a Merinita. She's a Mind adept.

          Comment


          • #6
            These are interesting. Any more?

            Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
            A Glass Walker could cooperate with a Virtual Adept but the Etherite might have a harder time. The Choristers and the Hermetics will have the most issues because of their history and paradigms. Many human-born Changing Breeds are wary of human monotheism as a threat to their cultural traditions, though monotheism exists within the spectrum of Changing Breed beliefs. However associations with the Inquisition and Witch-Hunters, however unfounded, can be difficult to overcome. Meanwhile the Hermetics suffer from a historic tendency to write the Changing Breeds off as ‘primitive bone-throwers’ and the Changing Breeds have long memories. It would be difficult to overcome.

            However even the most difficult circumstances of the Crafts and Traditions will be nothing compared to the difficulties faced by Technocrats. Even if one is lucky enough to be in a position where working with a Changing Breed wouldn’t be anathema, you need to be able to cooperate with them. Then you have to find Changing Breeds willing to tolerate your ‘Weaver Taint’ and acknowledge your obligations. While not impossible, it’s dangerous and difficult.
            Glass Walkers don't seem to share the beliefs of the Virtual Adepts, only the affinity for hacking and computers and high-tech. They believe in a solid, very real world that is not a construct of computer data, like other shapeshifters. Shapeshifters who believe in an Almighty Creator aren't anything like Christians or Muslims, either. Fundamentally, shapeshifters believe in a 100% immanent Goddess, and if an Abrahamic, Adept, or Batini Mage dismisses the physical world as unimportant or worthless, that's a massive clash of incompatible belief systems. So I'd see the Chorus and Adepts both having a hard time seeing common ground or goals with the Changing-Breeds.

            Technocrats... are going to be hated and feared by Gaian shapeshifters for being part of the group that wages the Pogrom and pretty obviously being agents of the Weaver and strengthening the Gauntlet. In the shapeshifters' paradigm, they're just as evil and world-destroying as Nephandi, or almost, and nobody appreciates being a target of genocide.

            As much as the Mages will get a hard time if they try to impose their paradigm on shapeshifters, the shifters are just as fanatical and eager to push their beliefs. Not to convert, necessarily, but because the Mages are WRONG (dangerously ignorant, humanocentric, uppity, blasphemous, destructive, etc.). Overall there's so much distrust that I guess I'm interested in concrete examples, from canon or games -- more than the loose possibility that anyone might see past their prejudices in the right circumstances.

            Given the terrible harm that Pentex, Technocrats, and Nephandi do as common enemies of Gaian shapeshifters, mystick mages, and the non-billionaire masses, there are plenty of good reasons for mages and shapeshifters to put aside their quarrels and ally before the world implodes. But the Council of Nine can't even seem to keep their allience together and focused on the Ascension War all the time, and look at the Garou killing each other and the Fera. If the Ahadi or Hengeyokai and the local mages actually helped one another against the Technocrats and Pentex, they could get some serious crap accomplished. Hengeyokai have diplomatic relations with the Kuei-Jin and accept their blood-sucking undeath as ordained... yet there's no mention of any tolerance for Mages to even exist.



            It just occurred to me that none of the Mage groups have the ability to reliably identify Barabbi in their midst. I would expect them to have eventually found a way to sense entropic Resonance, analagous to the Sense Wyrm Gift. But if they can't?

            Sense Wyrm isn't Detect Evil, because lots of people end up splattered or polluted with Wyrm taint, just like real pollution. But surely a Nephandus would stink horribly like a Black Spiral Dancer. If Mages found out so many shapeshifters can potentially help uncover Barabbi, they'd be very interested in making bargains to get assistance with that, wouldn't they? There'd be a price, obviously...
            Last edited by Erinys; 11-16-2020, 11:57 PM.


            I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
            Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

            Comment


            • #7
              Nephandi have ways to prevent their Resonance from being scanned. None of these are foolproof. Most of them are going to require several ranks in spheres, usually Mind and Spirit. Nephandi countermeasures are likely also effective against shapechangers, though there is rarely a 1 to 1 correspondence between how powers interact in the different game lines.

              The Celestial Chorus is very diverse and doesn't have to be monotheistic in practice--Christianity and Islam just happen to be major religions with many adherents and which had more prominence before Mage Revised showed the many voices in the Chorus.

              Most of the concrete examples of Garou-Mage relations that are going to be friendly will be the mages commonly linked to them. A good run through the Tradition books and the Book of Crafts looking for information on Garou and other shapechangers will give you the canon examples.

              Though I'd go with Black Fox's 5 points as the quick way for how things work for Garou-Mage relations beyond a 'we are all fighting creatures of darkness in this one-time teamup adventure.'

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by baakyocalder View Post
                Nephandi have ways to prevent their Resonance from being scanned. None of these are foolproof. Most of them are going to require several ranks in spheres, usually Mind and Spirit. Nephandi countermeasures are likely also effective against shapechangers, though there is rarely a 1 to 1 correspondence between how powers interact in the different game lines.
                Of course, I didn't think of that. *facepalm* Sense Wyrm and Sense Primal Nature are merely rank 1 Gifts.

                The Celestial Chorus is very diverse and doesn't have to be monotheistic in practice--Christianity and Islam just happen to be major religions with many adherents and which had more prominence before Mage Revised showed the many voices in the Chorus.
                Alright. I was responding to the mention of shapeshifter monotheism to clarify how they see things. Their 'paradim' doesn't line up entirely with any real world religion I've heard of, though the cosmology is partly inspired by Neopagan and related concepts. And I get the impression Mages (of whatever religion) don't believe the same exact way that they did as sleepers.

                Originally posted by baakyocalder View Post
                Most of the concrete examples of Garou-Mage relations that are going to be friendly will be the mages commonly linked to them. A good run through the Tradition books and the Book of Crafts looking for information on Garou and other shapechangers will give you the canon examples.
                Yeah, these were what I was hoping existed, that I could find out about.

                I wonder about the Ahadi reaching out to the old Osirian League via the Breeds that belong(ed) to both. Past ties should make it possible to connect with the Mages, Changelings, and Reborn tied to that history, and there would be a basis for (limited) trust built on that old alliance.
                Last edited by Erinys; 11-17-2020, 01:11 AM.


                I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Generally speaking, Garou - and really all of the Fera - tend to be fairly xenophobic (especially by the standards of most modern information age humans). They are wary of outsiders and tend to look down on humans to some degree or another (even if only in the somewhat paternalistic fashion of the Children of Gaia). Mages tend to be even more distrusted, as they are using powers that most Garou don't think humans should really have access to (think of it along the lines of civilians with military grade firepower) and that their own activities often put them in competition for resources. Specifically access to locations that can serve as potential Caerns for Garou/Fera and as Nodes for Mages, but also certain bits of mystical lore, lost artifacts, and other things of that nature. So the two factions are more likely to butt heads when meeting than not.
                  But that said, they do sometimes have interests which overlap. Both groups have certain problems with various aspects of the modern world and its intersections of rampant industrialization, all powerful and oppressive surveillance states, crony corporatism, planned obsolesce, and ignorance of traditions and history. This is less of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than it is "the enemy of my enemy is my ally of convenience."
                  I find it's better to look at things on a PC level of packs and cabals (or individuals) rather than large scale groups. A caern/sept or pack is more likely to have a local band of witches/wizards/shaman who they are on mostly good terms with as opposed to seeing an entire global subculture as a potential ally.
                  Meanwhile, Mages, in addition to having the same Node-competition issues as Garou, are also moderately paranoid themselves as they are effectively the underground resistance against an oppressive global conspiracy of conformity and control. In addition, their own attitudes toward shapeshifters are very likely to initially be influenced by their own cultural experiences. A traditional Navajo, for example, is likely to consider werewolves to be the very evil and destructive Skinwalkers of Dine folklore until he learns otherwise from experience. But once those sort of cultural preconceptions are overcome, it is possible to find common ground.

                  As far as things the Garou are concerned about in which they might find like minded Mages as possible allies, a few of those include:
                  • Environmental Activism: A number of Mages get involved with this, often out of the same motivations as normal people, but also to protect and conserve ancient sacred sites, the habitats and territories of endangered Bygones, and to maintain a certain degree of spiritual balance between the material world and the Umbra. Some of this includes efforts to "green" urban areas by combatting sprawl, cleaning up old industrial sites, planting urban gardens and so forth. Mages drawn to this sort of thing are often found among the Verbena and Dreamspeakers, but also others such as Akashic, Hermetic and Etherites. (There is a caveat here in that the ultimate aims of the Garou are likely to go a bit beyond those of any non-shapeshifter allies.)
                  • Cultural Conservation: While Garou tend to be mainly concerned with their Kinfolk, those families tend to be parts of much larger communities and subcultures, and there are often a number of cultural traditions and mores they want to preserve in the face of the changing modern world in order to keep those ideals strong within the Tribe itself. Likewise, Mages have a lot of cultural traditions, lore, and beliefs they want to keep alive and protected. This can cover everything from historical societies, language preservation, legal rights, spiritual beliefs, and music/crafts. Again, the Verbena and Dreamspeakers get a lot of this, but really every Mage group is involved in this to one degree or another.
                  • Corporate Conflict: Mainly the realm of the Glass Walkers, though I could see certain Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs and a few others getting involved in it. This can be either trying to run a company in a way that directs its toward the Garou's best interests or working undercover to undermine a hostile company. In either case, there are Mages who involve themselves in the corporate world for similar reasons. Again, this is something that members of a lot of different Traditions might do, but your best bets are probably Akashics, Virtual Adepts, and Hermetics.
                  • The Streets: Urban Garou of all Tribes are probably even more likely to run into young urban Mages at some time in their lives. The traditional world of urban fantasy/cyberpunk RPGs that the WoD originates from, with fairly hip eccentrics living one step ahead of the law as they live lives of questionable legality and danger. Again, while every Tradition gets involved in this, you probably find more Virtual Adepts, Hollow Ones, and Orphans than any other.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Werewolves have Gifts - powers that can be used without causing Paradox. Maybe, as a Mage, I would want to use Gift effects as the foundation for coincidental Magick. Also, hang Pentex executives by their entrails. No need for a material incentive.

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                    • #11
                      Here's how I speculate it breaks down:

                      Right off the bat: even the most "tolerant" Red Talon is obviously not going to react to a Namebreaker with anything other than antipathy. That's just how it goes, and it's probably never going to change. The same goes for non-Same Bito Rokea, though that's mostly a matter of there being a slim chance of contact taking place in the first place.

                      I think the relation between the Dreamspeakers and the Garou has been overstated a bit. Obviously, it's the closest thing to a go-to for an Awakened Kinfolk, but beyond that, it's a little murky. Most of the Umbra (especially the High and Low) doesn't conform to the Triatic cosmology perfectly and thus tends to be ignored by the shifters. Furthermore, Dreamspeakers tend to be in touch with their cultures of origin, and the Garou Nation as a whole couldn't care less. Obviously, that's not true for every Tribe and I'm sure inroads have been made between, say, the Wendigo and their cultures' respective Mages, or the Glass Walkers and the Ghost Wheel Society.

                      Speaking of Garou and human cultures, I think the Verbena are a natural fit for association with the Fianna and the Black Furies (less so the Get of Fenris, considering their less-than-amicable history with their local human culture.) The Children of Gaia could potentially be associates as well, especially for the Moonseekers and similarly society/conservation oriented Verbena (though those might also be drawn to the Furies, depending on their proclivities.) Verbena also make natural allies to other, nominally less militant Fera. The Bastet (especially any non-tainted Ceilican still kicking around) come to mind, but I see no reason they couldn't get along with a Corax, Nuwisha, or even an unusually sociable Gurahl.

                      I think there might just be more overlap between the Garou and the Celestial Chorus than most people would assume at a glance. Whether or not they admit it, most Garou are basically monotheistic, and their relation to Gaia is only a hairs breadth away from a Chorister's relation to the One. Obviously, the ones involved directly in organized religion read as heavily Weaverish, but I think the more nondenominational types would get along swimmingly with the Children of Gaia.

                      Naturally, the Random Interrupts and the Virtual Adepts tend to be in largely the same boat, although given that most Glass Walkers don't know the difference between Cyberrealm/Dystopia and the Digital Web proper, collaborations will likely be more out of convenience than a deep philosophical connection.

                      The Ethernauts and the Umbral Fliers are about as similar as two Mage and Fera groups can be, but given that the Fliers barely exist in the modern day, it's largely irrelevant. I think most Fera would be more confused than anything upon encountering an Etherite. (Speculation about connections between the Etherites' Muvians and the Mokole's Lizard Kings notwithstanding)

                      The Akashic Brotherhood and the Stargazers have some superficial philosophical similarities, but I think the Akashic insistence about the illusory nature of reality would rub just about any Fera the wrong way. There isn't a ton of reason for there to actively be bad blood, but given the penchant for aloofness among the Akashayana, I can't imagine a ton of inroads exist either.

                      I think most Euthanatoi would read as Wyrmish to an unfamiliar Garou, so the possibility of cooperation is pretty slim. There's a non-zero chance that the Chakravarti and the Nagah are aware of eachother, but if they are, its 50/50 whether they would see eye to eye about who or what deserves judgement.

                      The Ecstatics are hard to pin down at an organizational level or generalize about. I think some might get a kick out of the Nuwisha, while others may enjoy the company of the Fianna. The Hagalaz and the Get may have some overlap, though it's likely fraught for the same reason the abovementioned Get/Verbena relations aren't great.

                      Of all the Traditions, I'd assume the Order of Hermes would be the most straightforwardly adversarial. They have a long and well documented history of draining Cairns and profess an entitlement and anthropocentrism that most Fera would find off-putting. Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs, Glass Walkers, and possibly Uktena are the most likely to encounter them, and I doubt they like what they see. It's possible that they got on with the Tetrasomians back in the day, but if so, it doubtless ended in tears. I'd never say never, but the two would likely keep eachother at arms length if they ever found reason to work together.

                      Among the Crafts, the Kopa Loei have a by now well established wariness toward the Rokea, who are the only Fera they are likely to have any history with. The Wu Lung and the Ngoma may have lines of communication with the Beast Courts and the Ahadi, respectively. Given the Dragon Wizards' noted arrogance and imperialism, I'd say the latter is significantly more likely than the former. The Hippolytoi and the Black Furies are naturally a match made in Elysium and I wouldn't be surprised if the two actively collaborate frequently. The Knights Templar are resoundingly unlikely to ever encounter a shapeshifter anywhere but the battlefield, and, best case scenario, the Templar ignore them because they have bigger fish to fry. They might actually like Dies Ultima, but I doubt any negotiations would ever get far enough to find out. The Taftani's recklessness and flamboyant displays of power probably don't earn them any friends. I think any shifters that encountered them would likely regard them like Hermetics on crack. The Bata'a are rapidly growing and vibrant, but have yet another cosmology that most Fera would find unorthodox and difficult to square. Nonetheless, they would likely make great allies to the Bone Gnawers and more cosmopolitan-minded Uktena, as well as the Ananasi (though it's impossible to tell how deep an alliance with the spiders actually goes.) I can't think of any Tribes or Breeds that would have had much contact with the Batini or Solificati, especially given the former's extreme secrecy.

                      Hollow Ones are diverse and decentralized enough that I don't feel confident making a statement one way or the other, though they might make decent contacts for the Gnawers or Bastet.

                      The Technocratic Union is going to be universally regarded with disdain. Nuwisha have a well documented history of fucking with the Void Engineers, and the most mild opinion I've seen in canon on them from the Fera is dismissive contempt from the Corax. The feeling, naturally, is generally mutual. Even after a discontinued Pogrom and relaxed anti-RD policy, Therianthropic Entities tend to be belligerent and leave a shitton of collateral damage in their wake. That said, there's canonically at least one non-hostile overture between Progenitor and Glass Walker front groups, so cooperation isn't 100%, ironclad unprecedented (granted, they're the Glass Walkers and the rest of the Garou hate them). With the new anti-deforestation initiatives, the Union might find itself with strange bedfellows, especially if the fight against the SPD and Pentex boils over. That, and the VE's will take whatever help they can get against Threat Null.

                      That brings us nicely to the Triatic extremist mages, beginning with Threat Null. Again, more likely to be a unifying antagonistic force than anything, but any hypothetical Weaver-fallen Fera might fight alongside them. They might find themselves being used as pawns by the Ananasi or Nuwisha against the Wyrm, but even this seems risky and unpopular.

                      The cooperation (or perhaps more accurately, cohabitation) of Malfean Nephandi and Black Spiral Dancers is an established fact of the two, especially in the upper echelons of Pentex. It follows that other Wyrmish Fera (Hellcats, Skull Pigs, Buzzard, Mnetics, Mockery Breeds, et cetera) might also find themselves here. Naturally, betrayals are commonplace.

                      Finally, I would guess that Marauders attract Ratkin like moths to a flame, given their status as the closest thing in existence to human-based Gorgons. Some naive Garou might consider them valuable weapons, but I think it's safe to assume that they'll learn their lesson about uncontrolled Wyld energies soon enough.


                      Never not tired

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                      • #12
                        Heya yall, back again to throw my ideas into the mix

                        •Virtual Adepts & Glass Walkers
                        -Yeah, I agree that the two groups don’t share a ton of cosmological similarities and even philosophical ones are limited to GW ragabash to an extent, I mention them as they’re relatively likely to cross paths on the Digital Web and thus have a possible proximity connection, like the Verbebae and Fianna for example.

                        •Monotheistic Relations
                        I agree with your general point Erinys, about the difference of perspective between practitioners such as the Chorus and the Changing Breeds would cause a divide, but I was actually referring to something else with my post. Among the Garou there are monotheistic syncretists, though relatively few and unorthodox. The Black Furies and Glass Walkers both have camps with ties to the Catholic Church for example, as well as the tendency of the Fianna to syncretize with their kin, the history that the Silent Striders have with the Jewish diaspora, and their and tribes like the Shadow Lords and Silver Fangs participation with Islam and Muslim nations.

                        That said I agree with much of what has been said above, particularly No One of Consequence and Black Fox’s posts, and I hope they’ve been helpful as I think they’ve illustrated several issues and connections in a better fashion then I would.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                          •Monotheistic Relations
                          I agree with your general point Erinys, about the difference of perspective between practitioners such as the Chorus and the Changing Breeds would cause a divide, but I was actually referring to something else with my post. Among the Garou there are monotheistic syncretists, though relatively few and unorthodox. The Black Furies and Glass Walkers both have camps with ties to the Catholic Church for example, as well as the tendency of the Fianna to syncretize with their kin, the history that the Silent Striders have with the Jewish diaspora, and their and tribes like the Shadow Lords and Silver Fangs participation with Islam and Muslim nations.
                          True, there are Garou who are willing to interact peacefully with monotheists. (There kind of have to be, since nearly every human is Christian or Muslim now.) That said, the Black Furies are trying to undermine Catholicism by slowly converting them to worshipping Gaia as Mary; I think most Garou in that camp don't have synchretic beliefs themselves, except a few exceptions.

                          Actually, Catholic Mages who found out about this might be pretty miffed about the werewolf conspiracy of non-celibate non-believers pretending to be nuns so they can influence Catholic theology to suit themselves. I have to say I'd be unhappy if some other religion planted a conspiracy to undermine my religion.
                          Last edited by Erinys; 11-20-2020, 11:05 PM. Reason: clarified after checking Black Furies. it doesn't say if the Order synchretize or not


                          I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                          Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                          • #14
                            As far as the Order of Hermes, I'll make note of a few of the Houses.
                            House Meritina was one of the founding Houses who fell on hard times. One of the three "non-Latin" Houses (who were of mostly Celtic origins), their original focus was on "Nature Magic" similar to that of the Verbena/Old Faith. But at some point this turned into a focus on the Faerie and their magics. However, a lot of them still study nature magic and have an interest in the natural world, environmentalism, and elementalism. Also House Bjornaer, another of the non-Latin founders, who are master shapeshifters usually more at home in the wild than among civilization. While a lot of them rejoined their original sect as part of the Verbena, a number stayed with the Order. Members of both Houses may cooperate with Garou over issues of environmentalism or protecting places of spiritual/mystical power.
                            Then there's House Shaea, originating in ancient Egypt, who are nominally acquainted with the Silent Striders (and the Bubasti and Mokole), and understand the dangers of the Cult of Sutekh and of Apep/Apophis (the Wyrm).


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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