Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

When was the exact moment that the Technocratcy began to be written as less "evil"?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

    And like Resplendent Fire mentioned before, there is some room for "good" in the Technocracy, but it isn't the norm. Most of it is plain ambivalence, questionable acts, and straight evil ones. The cusp of the Consensus of oWoD is apparently in their hands and they literally can sway reality to what they want, but oWoD as a universe is somehow shittier than our own even with the advantages they have. The Traditions (who they claim were the cause for humanities "sufferings") as is practically aren't a threat and have been literally destroyed by the Technocracy multiple times in MTA lore. So what gives?

    "A less corrupt certain of our alternative to the Syndicate" is merely a what-if. This section of the Technocracy has practically ruled it de-facto since its start as the High Guild and later on to its current namesake. It has dealt everything with the concern for profit only and nothing else nor does the Syndicate as a whole care about the common man.
    One of the ways I picture the differences between the NWO and the Syndicate is the way they see regular people and the specific ways they dehumanize them.

    To my mind, the NWO is more likely to care about the human story. They are more likely to see individuals as individuals and more likely to look for anecdotes to put human faces to triumphs and tragedies. The flip side of this is that they are prone to making gross assumptions about what people want and generalizing from specific examples. They are also much more prone to solutions that rely on perfecting people or consigning people to the dustbin of history. When they misjudge people, it is the people who are wrong.

    The Syndicate on the other hand is much more accepting of people as they are. They seek to perfect systems not individuals. That said they also much more likely to view people as numbers on a page. They'll do the market research to find out what is important to people and miss the why. They are prone to missing the consequences of their actions through their distance.

    The NWO cares very much about the common man, so long as they get to choose who the common man is. The Syndicate cares very much about the common man as represented by numbers on a spreadsheet.



    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      Oh, I got confused because people in this thread said Navalon were remnants of the Craftmasons.
      I said that I see Navalon as the spiritual heirs to the Craftmasons. And I also said that I see the Craftmasons as the conscience of the Order of Reason; the two statements should be taken as a set, as in “I view Navalon as what the Technocracy would be like if it hadn't lost its way”.
      Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-08-2020, 04:54 PM.


      Comment


      • #78
        Shouldn't Lysenkoism have worked in the USSR given how Mage metaphysics work?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Alucard View Post
          Shouldn't Lysenkoism have worked in the USSR given how Mage metaphysics work?

          This really has nothing to do with the topic, especially given that in the WoD it was the Etherites who were the most prominent Mage faction behind the early USSR.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Alucard View Post
            Shouldn't Lysenkoism have worked in the USSR given how Mage metaphysics work?
            While I like to cite Climate Change denial as my go-to example of why there needs to be more to the nature of reality than just “whatever the Consensus says”, this also illustrates the same point. You can't get rid of Climate Change by making the Consensus “disbelieve” it, and you can't cause Lysenkoism to work by making the Consensus believe it. In both cases, what you end up with is a Consensus that's in Denial. It takes something else besides merely shifting the Consensus to make real, lasting change to the Tapestry.


            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              While I like to cite Climate Change denial as my go-to example of why there needs to be more to the nature of reality than just “whatever the Consensus says”, this also illustrates the same point. You can't get rid of Climate Change by making the Consensus “disbelieve” it, and you can't cause Lysenkoism to work by making the Consensus believe it. In both cases, what you end up with is a Consensus that's in Denial. It takes something else besides merely shifting the Consensus to make real, lasting change to the Tapestry.
              What is that something else?

              Comment


              • #82
                Was Lysenkoism ever THAT widely believed on?

                Because the mention that Lysenko had to accuse people of being anty-comunist (get them into trouble) to do his things suggests to me that there were people who didn't believe so much.

                Maybe dissidents were a minority here, people believed enthusiastically and it should have worked.

                Let's entertain the notion that it should have worked. Disclaimer: It's all game theory here, there's no final answer from the "Mage metaphysics"

                Now, the Consensus it's the power of ALL Avatars to alter reality in accordance to human belief and will. If you believe in forces that exist beyond human belief, then the Consensus simply was blocked by those outside powers.

                I think you could imagine altering reality as a ritual where you want the largest amount of participats to add to the power of the ritual, and the least amount of complications that could make it fail.

                So, you have to:
                *Convince more people to increase the power of such beliefs in the Consensus and decrease the power of the beliefs working against you
                *Do some work arround that produces the desired result yet finds less resistance from the outside forces. People can't fly, but maybe there are times where they can. Loads of stuff fly. Find a "bug" or something to cheat the universe into believing that your stuff maybe should fly, so it becomes less salty about it.

                There's another dial: Increasing the power of that which comprises the Consensus. Awakened Avatars have a greater influence on Reality than sleepers (sleepers only rule the Consensus because they have a tremendous numerical advantage). It stands to reason that more Awakened would increase the power of humanity to change the Tapestry. Mass Awakening migth be powerful enough to overwhelm any outside opposition. Who knows?
                Last edited by Aleph; 12-26-2020, 04:24 AM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Alucard View Post
                  Shouldn't Lysenkoism have worked in the USSR given how Mage metaphysics work?
                  Not really. If the Lysenko’s methods worked the Technocracy would have won already. Unfortunately for them, human reaction and belief is difficult to predict.

                  Look at it this way, through control of the media and journals Lysenko could convince the cities and the universities (somewhat) but that’s not where the food was grown. For the farmers he was just forcing them to do something they didn’t think would work. No surprise then that it didn’t.


                  Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    M20's balkanized Consensus (i.e., Reality Zones) does help here, in that the beliefs of the city-dwelling technocrats (note the lower-case) don't hold much sway over the more rural regions, especially in an era before the rise of mass communications.


                    Comment


                    • #85
                      If I remember right, there's a line of historical thinking that Lysenko was successful in part because he did actually have a lot of success gaining the trust of peasants. He was a comparatively self-educated peasant with his own relatively common sense ideas about agronomy (even if they were wrong), whilst Vavilov and co were the big city guys, who also had a bad habit of overpromising. In the context of the collectivisation, dekulakisation, and the Holodomor; the Soviet state really needed someone to rebuild trust with the peasantry, which in this case was Lysenko.

                      However, if we want to keep to Mage metaphysics though; consider that the Soviet agricultural sector in general still significantly underperformed for pretty much all of it's existence. That wasn't the product of Lysenkoism, it was a product of treating the peasantry really badly.


                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        This, I absolutely agree with. Well, with the exception of the Nephandi. They are absolute jack holes.
                        I see this as a major problem with all editions of M:tAs. The game talks about how belief creates truth, but it contains more pre-packaged truths I could easily count. One of them is that there is a faction that is Inherently Evil and metaphysically recognized by everyone as being enemies. If you look at what M20 initially uses to describe them, they could include character concepts in which they're like the Euthanatoi but for the cosmos rather than individual things within it.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Melendwyr View Post
                          The game talks about how belief creates truth, but it contains more pre-packaged truths I could easily count.
                          Belief shaping reality isn't exactly the same as creating truth. But split hairs aside, that's one reason more to believe Mage isn't absolutely relativistic, that there *is* a world outside the dreams of humanity after all.

                          Really, Mage never goes so far. If *everything* depends uppon the Consensus, that calls for troublesome questions like "then how did humans came to be?". Also Mage has stories about the origin of the universe, and the origin of magick, that talk about inhuman forces other than "the Consensus" (The One, The Pures). These could be false, but also could be rigth - and if one believes they hold truth, then there's a lot of objective in the cosmos.

                          But belief shaping reality can still be true. Your hands can shape clay, but that doesn't mean you made the clay. Ultimately, it's up to the ST to define *how much* does belief change the universe.
                          Last edited by Aleph; 12-30-2020, 10:48 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Yeah; one problem with going fully relativistic is that “100% of all statistics are wrong.” Go with a fully subjective reality, and nothing can be absolutely true — including the fact that nothing is absolutely true. Paradox.

                            By the way, welcome to the forum, Melendwyr! I'll note, in your defense, that you're not the only one who would prefer the Nephandi to have some sort of redeeming element buried somewhere in their philosophy. Not me, mind you; I'm fine with the Nephandi as they're presented in Book of the Fallen. But there are a few here who share your opinion. I'll see if I can dig up one of the threads that addressed the issue.


                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Melendwyr View Post

                              I see this as a major problem with all editions of M:tAs. The game talks about how belief creates truth, but it contains more pre-packaged truths I could easily count. One of them is that there is a faction that is Inherently Evil and metaphysically recognized by everyone as being enemies. If you look at what M20 initially uses to describe them, they could include character concepts in which they're like the Euthanatoi but for the cosmos rather than individual things within it.
                              It might help you to consider the Nephandi as irreconcilably alien rather than irredeemably evil. From the outside they appear evil, that might not be the case from the inside. Mages can’t know that without becoming one and that’s a one way trip.

                              That’s the thing with the Nephandi, they are the absolute that proves the reletavistic rule. While everyone else is arguing that morality might be subjective, they are the ones which show it may be very real. In many ways the Technocracy and Traditions can get so lost in the philosophical arguments that they (and we) lose track of the real weight of what they are doing, that can’t happen with the Nephandi.


                              Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Personally, I think that “irreconcilably alien” is a better fit for the Marauders than the Nephandi. Part of what makes the Nephandi so insidious is that they're all too human — in the worst possible way.


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X