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When was the exact moment that the Technocratcy began to be written as less "evil"?

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  • Originally posted by JagneStormskull View Post

    "Anyone who puts the Precepts of Damian before SCIENCE! should report to the Chaoticians for immediate deprogramming."
    The heck are the chaoticians.

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    • Originally posted by JagneStormskull View Post

      The difference between "junk science" IRL and "junk science" in Mage are that the former is "a phenomenon is impossible, so stop talking about it like it is" while the latter is "a phenomenon has been observed, but it's a tool of our enemies, so we don't want to research it." As for the ethics, warding against EDEs would certainly be a useful defense technique for Void Engineers.
      You mean like the wards placed upon pretty much every construct against scrying and EDE attacks? Those?

      No offense, but why *wouldn't* Void Engineers have any of them? They literally go into the Umbra. They just put it down as 'anti-psychic field against aliens' or 'phase-space disruptor to prevent EDE infiltration'.

      edit: And another thing. Most Junk science is basically thrown away due to politics, Time Table, or just plain inconsistency with their own paradigm. They *do* study Junk science. It's just through their paradigm.
      Last edited by Accelerator; 01-29-2021, 10:16 PM.

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      • Originally posted by JagneStormskull View Post
        The difference between "junk science" IRL and "junk science" in Mage are that the former is "a phenomenon is impossible, so stop talking about it like it is" while the latter is "a phenomenon has been observed, but it's a tool of our enemies, so we don't want to research it."
        If the Technocracy chose not to research things simply because the Traditions use it, they wouldn't research anything. Try again: what criteria does the Union use to decide what direction to take their research?

        Originally posted by JagneStormskull View Post
        As for the ethics, warding against EDEs would certainly be a useful defense technique for Void Engineers.
        Would be, and is. Reread Dimensional Science: it includes the ability to ward against EDEs.



        Originally posted by JagneStormskull View Post
        Now, this is a Rule Zero situation, but wasn't Special Projects Division eaten by werewol... I mean killed off mysteriously after the Avatar Storm? Just curious, was it repaired in your game, or did it just never disappear?
        In my Chronicles, SPD is more than just Pentex-related stuff; and in fact, the part of it that was Pentex-related was actually a small part of it. And yes, that part of it mysteriously disappeared. But the rest of SPD — the bulk of it that had nothing to do with Pentex — never disappeared.
        Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-31-2021, 05:52 AM.


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        • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
          The only reason why the Technocracy is successful as it is because they're a Weaver cult, just like how Pentex is wildly successful by aide and allegiance to the Wyrm. The only different between Pentex and the Technocracy is that Pentex is fully cognizant of being vassals to the Wyrm; while the Technocracy is unaware of the Weaver because the Weaver works subtly and through the low-whirring shifts of the OneSong.
          That's what the werewolves think. But Mage has long since moved past the point where Werewolf cosmology has anything more than a passing relevance to it.

          Stasis, Dynamism, and Entropy are distinct from, and arguably more fundamental than, the Triat: the Wyrm is the spiritual manifestation of Entropy; but unless your Focus is one that incorporates the notion that spirits are the fundamental building blocks of reality, you're probably not going to buy into the idea that the Wyrm is Entropy.

          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
          Also Earthly Foundations are BS in Mage because any Mage that is Arete 7+ or above can completely wreck any notion of Earthly Foundations. The only reason why they don't do it is because with their high insight they already know the trivialities of the Ascension War and Earth itself.
          The fact that it takes Spheres in the 7+ range (assuming you accept Masters of the Art, which many of us, including Brucato, don't) to alter the likes of Earthly Foundations doesn't make them BS. Nobody has said that EFs can't be changed; only that it requires something more than merely changing the Consensus.


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          • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            The fact that it takes Spheres in the 7+ range (assuming you accept Masters of the Art, which many of us, including Brucato, don't) to alter the likes of Earthly Foundations doesn't make them BS. Nobody has said that EFs can't be changed; only that it requires something more than merely changing the Consensus.
            Yeah, I agree

            But I have to say: The idea that Arete 7+ (that, btw, many Masters implied in the Ascencion War *do* have. It's not the province of Archmasters alone) can "wreck any notion of Eartly Foundations" it's not really supported by Mage books.

            Now, when people says Arete X they're usually implying Spheres at that level. So let's go into what MotA has to say: It's my understanding that Masters of the Art version of Archspheres not only doesn't imply you can change Earthly Foundations, it actually provides heavy *mechanical* reasons to think even Spheres at 9 can't "wreck Eartly Foundations" easily, if at all.

            The clearest example: Note that Forces 9 clearly states that any attempt at changing a cosmic force (like gravity, how curious, the de-facto Eartly Foundation sample in this thread) it's going to be undone in a matter of seconds. Who it's undoing this mega-Archmagick if not Foundations or the Consensus acting exactly as Foundations would?

            To add to that, Masters of the Art mentions Paradox being a big deal for Archspheres and Archmasters in general. There's a section in the books about that. Only Arch-Prime (that not all Archmasters have) can really deal with Paradox, and it's implied that because these spells are also inherently Vulgar, it's kind of a damocles sword. Oh, and by the fact that most Archmasters go hide in the Umbra, and do all sort of crazy shit (like shredding their own Avatars) to avoid Paradox

            Paradox it's reality pushing against your magick. If Archmasters were easily capable of "wreck any notion of Eartly Foundations" (regardless if you understand them as beliefs deeply ingrained in the Consensus, or as an outside force with competing or superior power), they shouldn't have so many problems with 'dox.

            I could get behind *Oracles* being able to "wreck Eartly Foundations" (but not doing so as part of their mysterious agendas) - perhaps. I could get behind Exemplars with Spheres at 10 being able to wreck the Foundations if they want (but they don't seem to want, perhaps because at that point they pretty much *represent* the Foundations, and migth be more inclined to preserve them that to make wild changes). Ascended Masters, sure they can (assuming Ascencion isn't a myth, and that the Ascended can and do affect our lesser reality)

            These three types of mages are also *trully* beyond the Ascencion War or mortal concerns. Ordinary Archamsters do get into the War from time to time
            (ehem...Porthos...ehem - Arete 9, by the way)

            Bottom line: Mere Arete 7+ most categorically *doesn't* allow one to fuck on the Consensus, much less on Cosmological Constants or Earthly Foundations (that are either the Consensus, or an even greater power), not even with MotA and a few Archsphere dots thrown into the mix.
            You need to look WAY above - it's, like, a ToJ Al-Aswad tier feat
            Last edited by Aleph; 01-30-2021, 12:18 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Aleph
              Mere Arete 7+ most categorically *doesn't* allow one to fuck on the Consensus,
              Bruh, a cabal of atleast 3 Arch-Masters with Mind 9 (One Mind) can easily change the Consensus just by influencing every mind on Earth in about 1 to 2 turns, even from the other side of the High Umbra. GG no Re. Actually if all the Arch-Masters in the oWoD universe got together to do something, they'd just flatly win the Ascension War over the Technocracy. They don't just do it because by that point their metaphysical form of thought has already past such things and they have entirely different Seekings that is entire above the Ascension War futility.

              Originally posted by Dataweaver
              only that it requires something more than merely changing the Consensus.
              Yes, that other factor is Magick.


              Jade Kingdom Warrior

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              • Originally posted by Aleph
                Mere Arete 7+ most categorically *doesn't* allow one to fuck on the Consensus...You need to look WAY above - it's, like, a ToJ Al-Aswad tier feat
                Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                Bruh, a cabal of atleast 3 Arch-Masters with Mind 9 (One Mind) can easily change the Consensus just by influencing every mind on Earth in about 1 to 2 turns, even from the other side of the High Umbra.
                Bruh, that requires A LOT more than your Arete 7+. Moving the goalposts much? Arch-Masters with Spheres at 9, if they exist, are on a similar level as powerful Exemplars and Oracles.

                Also, who cares if you do it from the other side of the High Umbra?, Paradox it's dependant on the place where an effect takes place, not where you're casting it. And trying to alter belief in Foundations in one or two seconds, would likely be quite Vulgar

                Still, one has to wonder: what if the effect it's to alter the Consensus in such a way that the very Effect causing the alteration would be deemed Coincident?. I'm tempted to put this as an example of why Foundations/Constants aren't dependant on the Consensus (otherwise Mind 9 can do Forces 9 better than Forces 9) - but "Consensus is all" defenders still have one card uppon their sleeves: Vulgarity it's determined before the effect it's casted. Hence, your alteration of the Consensus migth still be very Vulgar...IDK.

                But, hey, I grant you that you've managed to changed Foundations at "only" level 9 depending on how ST interprets Paradox working, and assuming Foundations don't come from a force distinct from the Consensus. If they come from an outside force (my personal cup of tea), then you've changed nothing

                Actually if all the Arch-Masters in the oWoD universe got together to do something, they'd just flatly win the Ascension War over the Technocracy. They don't just do it because by that point their metaphysical form of thought has already past such things and they have entirely different Seekings that is entire above the Ascension War futility.
                I think you're conflating mere Archmasters with Oracles and similar. I'm starting to think you haven't read Masters of the Art.

                Because the Technocracy *has* Archmages, according to MotA (Arch-Scientists).

                Incidentaly, that's the reason given in MotA of why this doesn't happen: The escalation (and Paradox) that would be unleashed if Archmasters started to fight against Arch-Scientists would be catastrophical. Many, if not most, Archmasters aren't really *above* the Factions - they just don't get involved in the War very often.
                Last edited by Aleph; 01-30-2021, 01:20 PM.

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                • Shakanaka

                  Also: "Bruh, a cabal of atleast 3 Arch-Masters with Mind 9..."

                  XD

                  Bruh, even Al-Aswad cabal of Anty-Oracles most likely doesn't have that much Mind (Al-Aswad himself having 8. I would think only the Mind Aswadim has more than that, since Al it's supposed to be vastly more powerful than the others).

                  Think about that.

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                  • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                    The heck are the chaoticians?

                    Once a cross-Convention Technocracy group, the Chaoticians (then known as the Probability Engineers) took the side of the Virtual Adepts during the 50s VA/NWO Cold War because the VA were the only Technocrats who took them seriously. Using their mastery of Entropy, they have predicted every recession since their foundation, including those recessions that occurred before the VA split from the Technocracy, (and warned the Syndicate, although the Syndicate always ignores them) and planned many of the Virtual Adept's most successful missions. The Chaoticians are also among the Adepts most ready to work with the rest of the Council, bonding with other Traditions over things like arcane mathematics, numerology, gematria, and the I Ching.

                    Chaotician recruitment material (open to anyone who asks for it) has been known to deprogram Technocrats, leading some Adepts to believe that they're stuffing Mind magick in.

                    Source:
                    Tradition Book: Virtual Adepts (Revised)
                    Last edited by JagneStormskull; 02-01-2021, 03:42 PM. Reason: Grammar correction.

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                    • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                      Bruh, a cabal of atleast 3 Arch-Masters with Mind 9 (One Mind)
                      Is that all it would take to execute your plan? Because I'm not sure there are that many Mind 9 Arch-Masters in history.

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                      • Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                        Still, one has to wonder: what if the effect it's to alter the Consensus in such a way that the very Effect causing the alteration would be deemed Coincident?. I'm tempted to put this as an example of why Foundations/Constants aren't dependant on the Consensus (otherwise Mind 9 can do Forces 9 better than Forces 9) - but "Consensus is all" defenders still have one card uppon their sleeves: Vulgarity it's determined before the effect it's casted. Hence, your alteration of the Consensus migth still be very Vulgar...IDK.
                        Yes, it would be extremely Vulgar, if it could even happen. There's another card I'd play as well, though, which is that simple mind control doesn't change the consensus like that.

                        To really make this work, everyone one earth would have to be hollowed out to the level of a newborn baby, so that even their earliest beliefs were eliminated. Then after you spiritually lobotomized them they would need to be built up from scratch, given new identities and experiences that reinforce the new beliefs. Also, since there is a lot of indication that the High Umbra and the Consensus are intertwined, you'd have to scrub the High Umbra clean as well to prevent it from contaminating your new consensus.

                        This is not a simple thing a couple of Masters could do while having a few beers. This is a complicated Ascension level event.



                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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