Avatar and Embrace

[LastCourier]

So what happens when vampire embraces an Awakened mage?
I always thought that upon embrace Avatar shutters resulting either in death of the Avatar, or in Avatar being incomplete (there are even such flaw in one of m20 book, when you have damaged Avatar, and must seek other piece/shards of you avatar)
But player in my game says that, since mage effectively dies, then avatar just fly away and nothing happens

[babi_gog]

Much of the info around this is in Blood Treachery, from memory, the Avatar departs and the individual no longer has access to it. However can't remember if it covers what happens to the Avatar in a mystic sense.

[Aleph]

Both were part of the canon at different times.

I think the last version it's that the Avatar departs at the moment the mage dies, and that happens before propper embrace takes place - so nothing happens to the avatar.

Being a Ghoul for too long, on the other hand, can shatter a mage's Avatar. Even if that doesn't happen, it can leave the Avatar adict to vampire's blood.

None of this has anything to do with the Merit where you have an Avatar in pieces and you can collect them to raise your Background. Or rather, not necessarily, you could invent that it does. The Merit itself doesn't imply anything on the possible causes, leaving it to ST discretion

[theoutlander523]

When you're Embraced or something similar, you Avatar disappears. It doesn't shatter, explode, implode, or turn into something else. It just disappears from the Mage and they cannot do True Magick anymore. I'd wager it just goes back to sleep.
One of the plot points in one of the modules is Tremere trying to get his Avatar back and it's brought up that he has to become human again.

As for the shattering thing, that's a thing from Blood Treachery when you're a ghoul, which honestly you should ignore and never touch ever. That book is so bad and contradictory towards everything that's Mage, that even M20 basically said to ignore it.

[Dwight]

It's pretty much spelled out in the faq of the m20 book of shadows. Your avatar shatters, welcome to being a vampire, no more mage powers for you.

[Aleph]

Where? I haven't seen that mentioned in the faq of the book of secrets.

I think you may be missing the context of the question here. Nobody it's questioning if the vampire get's to have mage powers on top - shattering or leaving the Avatar it's no more.

99% of the time it's the same. It could, however, lead to some peculiar situations. For instance, if the avatar "leaves", an ex-mage vampire (being immortal) migth meet with a living person that has a new reincarnation of his old avatar (and Past Live memories of when the vampire was alive). That can't happen if the avatar shatters.

[Konradleijon]

The Avatar is destroyed. I think it’s what happene to Tremare.

[Dataweaver]

At this point, I want page citations.

[Dwight]

At this point, I want page citations.

P.272 M20 Book of Secrets

[Dataweaver]

To be fair, that doesn't say anything about what happens to the Avatar; just that the former mage can no longer work Magick after the Embrace.

[Dwight]

To be fair, that doesn't say anything about what happens to the Avatar; just that the former mage can no longer work Magick after the Embrace.

Personally I believe the vampires beast consumes the avatar and only releases it upon final death. Also there is an avatar flaw that hints it may have come from a vampire or at least someone seriously into blood magic.

It's one of those things that's best left open ended imo.

[Dataweaver]

In terms of personal opinions, mine is “all of the above”: when a mage is Embraced, the Beast begins to consume the Avatar. At that point, either the Avatar fights back, or it flees. If it fights back successfully, it destroys the Beast and the Embrace fails: the would-be vampire dies. If the Avatar flees successfully or fails to fight or flee, the Embrace progresses as normal.

If the Avatar fails at either of these, it is consumed by the Beast and will never be seen again. If it succeeds, it may either succeed wildly (curbstomping the Beast if it fights, getting away unscathed if it flees) or it might suffer damage in its efforts (e.g., the aforementioned Avatar Flaw).

In short, there is no one answer. They're all possibilities, on a case by case basis.

[Aleph]

(e.g., the aforementioned Avatar Flaw).

Which Avatar Flaw is this?. Would like to check it.

[Dataweaver]

While it's not explicitly an Avatar Flaw, Blood-Hungry Soul could be interpreted in this way. I could also see the Blood Magick Flaw being explained this way, as well as several other Supernatural Flaws.

[Aleph]

Blood-Hungry Soul could be interpreted in this way

I really don't see it.

Blood-Hungry Soul (2, 3 or 5 pt. Flaw)
In a previous incarnation, you had been a ghoul
in thrall to an unholy addiction to vampiric blood. Now, you must
resist the call of that ravenous past life and its fixation on
intoxicating Kindred vitae.
The deeper your thirst for this damning fulfillment, the
more this Flaw is worth:
• (2 points) You recall the glorious temptations of the
blood, but remember it like a poor choice from long
ago. If the opportunity presents itself to you, however,
you’ll need to make a Willpower roll (difficulty 5) in
order to resist the urge to pursue that addiction again. If
you succumb to that temptation again in this life, your
difficulty to resist further temptations rises to 6 every
time the chance to consume such blood arises again.
• (3 points) That temptation is stronger. Now the roll to
resist that first taste is 6, and the roll to resist further
crimson snacks becomes 8.
• (5 points) You’ve got it bad. Really bad! Obsessed with
the memories of glorious mystic blood, you must beat
difficulty 8 in order to resist your old habits, and difficulty
10 each time you try to deny that thirst after you’ve
fallen back to that damned addiction again.
This is so not going to end well… See the sidebar Mages,
the Blood Bond, and the Effects of Vitae, p. 76, for the longterm
effects of such fatal addictions.

I mean. I know "Ghoul" can mean vampire in some traditions...but...come on. In a Defect that talks about "Kindred" and "Vitae", I would say "you were a ghoul" very clearly means that the reason it's that you were a Ghoul. Are we really going to entertain the notion that the defect that says you were a ghoul adicted to kindred blood hints towards you being Embraced?

Of all supernatural defects, this is one that leaves very little mistery about the source. About the rest, sure, they can be explained that way. So can many supernatural Merits. And they can also be interpreted in wildly different ways that have nothing to do with vampires.

Nothing here really hints towards the avatar being shattered, consumed, damaged, asleep, or released during the Embrace. I would say that, as far as evidence has been presented here, M20 offers no answer whatsoever.