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  • #16
    Per Blood Treachery ghouls can't awaken, same for revenants. The kindred blood stagnates a mages avatar to the point where it can't grow and instead rots from addiction.

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    • #17
      Per the V20 Black Hand book, blood familiars are able to use awakened magic, albeit not advance their enlightenment while vitae is in their systems.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dwight View Post
        Per Blood Treachery ghouls can't awaken, same for revenants. The kindred blood stagnates a mages avatar to the point where it can't grow and instead rots from addiction.
        Indeed, Ghouls can't become Mages. On the other hand, Mages can become Ghouls - and these ghouls retain use of Awakened magick. Blood Treachery has a whole chapter about mage ghouls. Also in BoS, as referenced the Blood Bond, and the Effects of Vitae, p. 76. Also see the Merit Ghoul Mage

        If a Ghoul Mage, whose Avatar has become addict, dies, it makes a lot of sense for the Avatar to remain addicted in it's next incarnation. That's what the Defect says. Literally. That you were a ghoul in a previous incarnation.

        Again:

        Originally posted by Blood-Hungry Soul
        In a previous incarnation, you had been a ghoul...
        Btw, the whole "rotting 'til it shatters" from Blood Treachery it's now an optional rule as per BoS. p.76
        Being a ghoul mage it's still bad for your soul, but not necessarily "Gilgul" bad.
        Last edited by Aleph; 01-04-2021, 06:24 PM.

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        • #19
          Should mention that the Mage Storyteller's Handbook specifically says that a Mage who is Embraced has their Avatar "severed" but then mentions that a Mage turned vampire that's been cured has no guarantee that their Avatar will return. Pg 201-202 for citations.

          That's pretty much the plot of Red Sign actually.


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          • #20
            Yeah, I think that was Revised usual stance

            However, among the options Red Sign proposes to cure a vampire, I'm pretty sure there's one that mentions the Avatar being shattered - that's where the King in Yellow entered, allowing one to "mend" the broken Avatar

            As headcanon, I like Dataweaver's approach because I think allowing for more than one option here opens more posibilities for stories, both from ST perspective and as a player choosing the backstory for a character (to "explain" some Merits/Defects as has been suggested, for instance)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Aleph
              However, among the options Red Sign proposes to cure a vampire, I'm pretty sure there's one that mentions the Avatar being shattered - that's where the King in Yellow entered, allowing one to "mend" the broken Avatar
              Actually, that's what the Red Sign itself it's - perhaps - supposed to do. A Perhaps that's the perhaps to end all perhapses, because it's not only an option (left to ST to decide) - in fact, a rumor within an option -, it's also the one and only mention I know of the Tenth Sphere being used (the tome allows to access it):

              "Some readers have interpreted the ritual as requiring a Tenth Sphere, one that presumably passes judgement on the soul of the initiate and allows the reintegration of the initiate's shattered Avatar" Red Sign p. 70

              The King in Yellow (yes, it exists in Mage :P) allows one to get the Avatar back. It's also suggested that the power the tome can bestow might the power to "free a lost soul" - this it's also a rumor inside an option, but it's still a hint to Dwight's theory being a posibility (it doesn't say from what/where you would be freeing the "lost soul", but I don't think too wild to suggest the Beast).
              Last edited by Aleph; 01-05-2021, 11:23 AM.

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              • #22
                They do mention the shattered avatar thing a lot in Red Sign, but then there's this:
                "The conspiracy’s studies into the matter suggest that the Avatar disintegrates or shatters at the moment of the Embrace. It seems reasonable to Pierre that the shards of the Avatar simply slip into the Gauntlet and join the maelstrom of the Avatar Storm." - Red Sign pg. 44.
                "Perhaps the most interesting thing to the Euthanatos would be the idea that Avatars could be repaired, as a fair number of the death mages believe that the Avatar must travel the Wheel as surely as the soul does." - Red Sign, pg 46.

                The former suggesting they don't actually know what happens truly, while the latter suggests it gets fixed upon dying.
                All said and done, I see it as suggesting that the Avatar goes back to sleep when they die, but it might Awaken again upon being fixed. At worst you gotta wait till next life. Otherwise, it's implying that the vampires caused the Avatar Storm to be possible by embracing people and that would mean that they Embraced a lot of people given the size of the storm or there's something else also doing it.

                Regardless, that entire book is full of crazy hear says that are entirely dependent on the GM and it's a Vampire book, not a Mage book, and all of Revised is all over the place in terms of what happens.
                Also there's one part where a Verbena wiped out almost a whole city of vampires because of some magic disease they made in that book. So... yeah, not sure why the Traditions wouldn't just do one of those if the vampires are the ones that caused the Avatar Storm to be a thing.


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                • #23
                  My own head-canon is that the events of the Red Sign broke the vampiric condition and lead to the phenomenon described in Gehenna called the Withering. But that's just me.


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                  • #24
                    That was a take I considered as well, that the Curse of Caine was all one interrelated effect spread across all vampires descended from him, and mages breaking it to resurrect one vampire was causing the whole thing to unravel. (Had I gotten my act together and run a campaign dealing with that, the Setites, Nagaraja, Blood Brothers, and Gargoyles wouldn't have been affected by the Withering.)
                    Last edited by Matt the Bruins fan; 01-05-2021, 10:07 PM.

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                    • #25
                      I always figured that the withering was a result of quintessence (or at least specific forms of it) drying up which is why magic in various forms were dying (and some creatures had vanished) but I do like the idea of tying the withering to what happened in Red Sign (they're not inconsistent. Mystical energy is depleting, then the curse gets subverted in a way that further disrupts the process for them, leading to the withering.)

                      Anyhow I'm not sure that 'shattering' an avatar (or disintegrates - the two can be different things) precludes departure (it could depart intact, or in several pieces depending on the circumstances) - perhaps the avatar will even reconstitute itself if it isn't sucked up into the avatar storm (Shards get mentioned there, I believe.)

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