Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Night-Folk learning Sorcery

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Night-Folk learning Sorcery

    What is everyone's opinion on this? This is one of the many instances where WOD is contradictory. Older edition books such as Wolves of the Sea has a merit vampires can take to learn sorcery paths and there are Bastet, Kitsune, and some Uktena who know their own versions of sorcery. But both of the sorcerer books are adamamt that night-folk cannot learn sorcery or if they can it should greatly restricted.

    I am asking as many on the White Wolf reddit believe it is fine for a vampire to learn sorcery along with other splats just as long as they are aware that is XP not being spent on disciplines and other things. I say if it is allowed the XP cost should be very expensive.
    Last edited by Starcomet; 12-30-2020, 12:39 PM.

  • #2
    There is realy no universal answer, as it is all a matter of what gameline you primarily run at your table, a matter of game balancing (especially in online cross-overish games) and what kind of metaphysical laws you decide your setting subscribes to.

    Personally I subscribe to "No, Nightfolk can't do Sorcery unless explicitely stated." as in the case of Bast and Kitsune. The tendency to allow certain splats to learn all kinds of things at once can seriously screw up the game balance, and IMO also makes..certain things just less special and diluates what is specific about the splats. Ask Sam Haight for details.


    cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
    cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
    EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

    Comment


    • #3
      My toughts: I don't like it.

      Each of the splats has it's own ways to access "wizard powers" that are very resonant with their themes and style. Like: blood magic it's all about blood and ancient cults passing ancient secrets trough clan and bloodline. Werewolves do shamanic communion with the various spirits to power all sorts of rites and talismans. Mages have their divide between dynamic and static magic - with dynamic magick being more potent than static magic, but also having the stepper price of Paradox.

      I don't feel the need to *also* have a generic "system" (more like a myriad of disjointed "Disciplines" spread across the whole WoD) that isn't tailored to these themes to represent "sorcery".

      Nor do the books: Note that the books that allow splats to use Sorcery, also say it's a rare thing (it's a costly Merit). Sure, there are Uktena that do Sorcery. There are also Werewolves immune to silver - that's not to say you have to allow one in your table.

      More isn't always better.

      And, yeah. Game balance. In general Sorcery it's going to be worse than the native powers of the Splats, so the XP it's not realy the problem here. The problem it's that Sorcery it's a third wheel. It's not designed for a single splat (it was invented as a simple system to make human wizards for Vampire in Hunters Hunted 1 - and that's still the best way to use it), so you don't know if it's going to mesh well with the themes of any splat. Paths that seem weak for a splat could be truly miraculous for another because they allow to do things outside the normal scope of their powers. This may open the door to all sorts of clashes, thematic or otherwise.
      Last edited by Aleph; 12-30-2020, 01:46 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I actually like the concept of a generic magical system anyone in the WoD can theoretically access, but the effort in doing so (as reflected by things like needing Merits, and high XP costs, etc.) is generally far too much for most supernaturals to bother with compared to their native powers; thus mostly leaving it as a mortal thing because they don't have other powers to try to learn.

        But IME I have to agree with Aleph that the Numina in general (not even just Sorcery) don't work for that with how disjointed the WoD mechanics are between game lines, and how hard it is to keep Numina as neat-but-not-worth-it to every supernatural out there. The biggest problem is when there are purposeful holes in what a splat can do, and there's a Numina that would let them completely ignore that restriction. Even then, there are things like weakening the pressure of Humanity on vampires if they can just learn Healing and fix damage they do sometimes via feeding without relying on powers that cost vitae (or do things like ghoul/Embrace) which would then further their need for more blood.

        The end result of being, "sure let them, but keep ST veto ready to nix specific Paths," is generally that no players bother because the costs are too steep for the benefits unless the Path they're looking at is a major balance or thematic issue that you'd veto anyway.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          My toughts: I don't like it.

          Each of the splats has it's own ways to access "wizard powers" that are very resonant with their themes and style. Like: blood magic it's all about blood and ancient cults passing ancient secrets trough clan and bloodline. Werewolves do shamanic communion with the various spirits to power all sorts of rites and talismans. Mages have their divide between dynamic and static magic - with dynamic magick being more potent than static magic, but also having the stepper price of Paradox.

          I don't feel the need to *also* have a generic "system" (more like a myriad of disjointed "Disciplines" spread across the whole WoD) that isn't tailored to these themes to represent "sorcery".

          Nor do the books: Note that the books that allow splats to use Sorcery, also say it's a rare thing (it's a costly Merit). Sure, there are Uktena that do Sorcery. There are also Werewolves immune to silver - that's not to say you have to allow one in your table.

          More isn't always better.

          And, yeah. Game balance. In general Sorcery it's going to be worse than the native powers of the Splats, so the XP it's not realy the problem here. The problem it's that Sorcery it's a third wheel. It's not designed for a single splat (it was invented as a simple system to make human wizards for Vampire in Hunters Hunted 1 - and that's still the best way to use it), so you don't know if it's going to mesh well with the themes of any splat. Paths that seem weak for a splat could be truly miraculous for another because they allow to do things outside the normal scope of their powers. This may open the door to all sorts of clashes, thematic or otherwise.
          This is my belief too. The various splats have their own unique "static" powers that are off limits to humans generally. Giving them access to mystic numina or psychic numina is just too unbalanced. And as you said, the few fera and changeling that can use such magic far and few and they tend to be shunned. The other Garou are suspicious of Uktena because of their occult intetest for example.

          Sorcery was designed as you stated originally by mortal wizards who hunted vampires and other beings before it was standardized and enveloped by Mage the Ascension. If all splats could use it freely, it would diminish the uniqueness of such characters.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            My toughts: I don't like it.

            Each of the splats has it's own ways to access "wizard powers" that are very resonant with their themes and style. Like: blood magic it's all about blood and ancient cults passing ancient secrets trough clan and bloodline. Werewolves do shamanic communion with the various spirits to power all sorts of rites and talismans. Mages have their divide between dynamic and static magic - with dynamic magick being more potent than static magic, but also having the stepper price of Paradox.

            I don't feel the need to *also* have a generic "system" (more like a myriad of disjointed "Disciplines" spread across the whole WoD) that isn't tailored to these themes to represent "sorcery".

            Nor do the books: Note that the books that allow splats to use Sorcery, also say it's a rare thing (it's a costly Merit). Sure, there are Uktena that do Sorcery. There are also Werewolves immune to silver - that's not to say you have to allow one in your table.

            More isn't always better.

            And, yeah. Game balance. In general Sorcery it's going to be worse than the native powers of the Splats, so the XP it's not realy the problem here. The problem it's that Sorcery it's a third wheel. It's not designed for a single splat (it was invented as a simple system to make human wizards for Vampire in Hunters Hunted 1 - and that's still the best way to use it), so you don't know if it's going to mesh well with the themes of any splat. Paths that seem weak for a splat could be truly miraculous for another because they allow to do things outside the normal scope of their powers. This may open the door to all sorts of clashes, thematic or otherwise.
            This. In fact, I would much rather have each gameline handle “mortals with magic” by granting certain mortals limited access to the Night-Folks' magics (e.g., human blood mages who can learn the Thaumaturgy Discipline; human shamans who can learn and use some Garou Rites; non-Awakened mystics who can learn and perform individual Rotes within the framework of their Focus; and so on) than to use the Hedge Magic or Sorcery systems. I'm still okay with Psychic Phenomena and True Faith (though I still have some fondness for how Dark Ages Inquisitor replaced True Faith with a Hunter-inspired system, which would be akin to “not-Imbued holy men who have limited access to Hunter Edges”, and I've lately considered the possibility of representing psychic phenomena as limited mortal access to Wraith's Arcanoi); but even with Psychic Phenomena, I'd be leery of letting Night Folk have it.
            Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-30-2020, 03:20 PM.


            Comment


            • #7
              Probably a controversial opinion, but I don't really think it's much of a problem.

              The only times this would even come up is during a crossover game, which are guaranteed to be imbalanced and full of theme conflicts in their own right. If you're in that situation, then the game isn't going to be typical WOD anyway, so the ST and players alike can be afforded to be a bit more off the wall in character design and story events.

              It's fine if the rules allow for games to be campy sometimes.
              Last edited by Prometheas; 12-30-2020, 03:29 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                Probably a controversial opinion, but I don't really think it's much of a problem.

                The only times this would even come up is during a crossover game, which are guaranteed to be imbalanced and full of theme conflicts in their own right. If you're in that situation, then the game isn't going to be typical WOD anyway, so the ST and players alike can be afforded to be a bit more off the wall in character design and story events.

                It's fine if the rules allow for games to be campy sometimes.
                I mean if it was like a straight vampire game then I would be fine with it. But if it is a crossover with sorcerers or others with numina, I would say no.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't think anyone really things it's much of a problem. The vast majority of the time going through the effort of grabbing Numina as a supernatural is sub-optimal to just sticking to your normal powers so much so that you're more likely telling your players not to screw themselves by insisting on trying to go this route rather than stopping them for imbalancing things or mucking with themes.

                  But that biases perceptions because it means that over time, most requests for access to Numina as a supernatural are trying to take advantage of those few edge cases where Numina do let you come out on top. When the only real options are, "I'm taking this to purposefully nerf my character," or, "I'm taking this because I found an exploit to make my character considerably better than normal." you tend to see a lot more of the second and thus view the whole thing in a much more negative light.

                  It doesn't make up for the edge cases among edge cases where a Numina fits in just right in terms of costs and themes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Honestly if I was going to make a generic magic anyone can access it would probably be built off the occult skill and grant clear rituals. These would be less powerful than general splat powers but would represent mythic threads or what have you having some say in the universe. I Mean a Hermetic mage can learn chemistry and it does stuff right?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      IIRC, when the revised edition of Vampire came out, it was decided that when vampires learn certain forms of "Sorcery", what they are really doing is learning a form of Blood Magic/Thaumaturgy that just conforms to the beliefs and styles of that culture. In the case of the Einherjar and other Nordic vampires, it'd be something like "Blod-galdur", probably with Spirit Thaumaturgy, Spirit Manipulation or Video Pellis as the primary Path, and versions of Weather Control, Prey on the Soul's Fear, Path of Warding, Path of Mars, Path of the Levinbolt, Path of the Father's Vengeance, Path of Curses, Oneiromancy, Neptune's Might, and/or the Hearth Path as possible additional ones.

                      With were-beasts, some of them can learn it, but there's usually a cultural taboo against it. Trying to learn human magic is usually seen as disrespectful to the spirits whom Garou and Fera learn gifts and other abilities from (effectively saying that "monkey magic" is better than anything the spirits can teach). Some of the Uktena get around this by arguing that their tribal totem pretty much demands that they learn all the secrets they can, and that this should include human magic. Some Bastet make a similar argument, that it's their job to learn these things. Kitsune tend to do so out of a kind of inferiority complex and wanting to have something they can do that they other breeds can't.

                      Wraiths are dead, so can't really do Sorcery anymore. Risen may be able to do it, or at least fake it via some sort of unknown arts that mimic Sorcery while using their own Pathos or Angst to power it. Shadow Pacts would be the easiest way for that to happen, which may mean it generates Angst when they use it.

                      Changelings have their own magics, but (at least in Second ed) they never really seemed to have any rules for what set supposedly powerful Changeling "sorcerers" or whatnot apart from normal Art using Changelings. I suppose one could use certain Sorcery paths for this if one wanted.



                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think it would necessarily be a problem (hell Thin bloods can learn it 'technically' given how weird the ToTB rules are written and thats probably OP) as long as the ST is fine with it. But those who mentioned disliking it have a legitimate point as far as the 'spirit' of the game goes (ST system was not really one friendly towards hybrids or cross-pollination.) Ultimately as long as the ST and other players don't mind anything is fair game but I'd also say it's reasonable to ask yourself WHY you want to do something especially if it might seem outside the rules (or even loophole-exploiting) because that reason can matter narratively or thematically. But ultimately its you and your groups game.

                        Another factor is it might depend on what we're talking about. If we're talknig about Mage's sorcery (which tends to be a bit more powerful than other numina) then it's probably not typical. But if its more like hedge magic/thaumaturgy from Hunter's Hunted it might be a different matter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Since Revised and V20 put pretty restrictive limits on the dots of discipline powers ghouls and revenants can develop, I've long thought that the Rafastio revenant family really needs to be using hedge magic paths rather than vampiric Thaumaturgy. Otherwise the fluff about their practice of witchcraft would be overblown and their usefulness to their masters severely compromised.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I honestly always found those limits for Revenent (and wow do I still get annoyed by how that term is misused) to be excessively restrictive. I usual cap them at 3 dots per discipline, save for the very old ones. (I've considered the idea that this applies to Thaumaturgy and other blood magic disciplines, but not to their Paths, but never had the chance to test how it worked.) I found this enabled them to develop useful powers on their own, but never be a real threat to their masters.


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                              I don't think it would necessarily be a problem (hell Thin bloods can learn it 'technically' given how weird the ToTB rules are written and thats probably OP) as long as the ST is fine with it. But those who mentioned disliking it have a legitimate point as far as the 'spirit' of the game goes (ST system was not really one friendly towards hybrids or cross-pollination.) Ultimately as long as the ST and other players don't mind anything is fair game but I'd also say it's reasonable to ask yourself WHY you want to do something especially if it might seem outside the rules (or even loophole-exploiting) because that reason can matter narratively or thematically. But ultimately its you and your groups game.

                              Another factor is it might depend on what we're talking about. If we're talknig about Mage's sorcery (which tends to be a bit more powerful than other numina) then it's probably not typical. But if its more like hedge magic/thaumaturgy from Hunter's Hunted it might be a different matter.

                              The numina/path magic that appears in Hunters Hunted II and the Kinfolk books I think is perfectly fine as those tend to be weaker versions of the traditional sorcery numina. But the path magic that appears in WOD: Sorcerer and its Revised edition are far too Mage the Ascension aligned and powerful for night-folks to learn. You can see this when comparing the Path of Healing in Hunters Hunted II with the Path of Healing in Sorcerer Revised.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X