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  • #16
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    There are probably small minor facations/sub-factions, as well as individual Mage, within the other Traditions who focus on Entropy. Etherites who specialize in exotic forms of thermodynamics (especially cold fusion and perpetual motion)...
    Hell, one of my favorite MtAs PC's I've ever made was an Etherite whose paradigm centered around quantum mechanics (specifically wave mechanics, observer effect, entanglement, and coherence/decoherence) and Hugh Everett's many-worlds interpretation. In essence his paradigm was observing wave functions currently in play, triggering decoherence, and "ensuring" the universe he was in was the one where what he wanted to happen, did. On the other hand, I opted to give him Sphere Natural (Entropy) rather than make Entropy his specialty sphere; that, I made Forces as it was the best-fit for him. I offset that by giving him Sphere Inept (Spirit) as I reasoned he'd have trouble understanding the Umbra (and its denizens) as anything but a set of closely-overlapped parallel worlds.

    Admittedly, I pulled a lot from the Void Engineers' quantum engineering paradigm from the Revised/M20 splatbook, but it is what it is.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ulbrecht View Post
      Wow. I love Greek mythology and culture in general. In fact I've always been fascinated by it since I was a child, that being the reason I usually hate stuff that try to adapt it in a "christianized" way with Hades being like the devil and so on. I actually feel really compelled right now to find more information and ways to join it with the game.
      I think the "everyone hates Hades" trope is a fairly recent thing. IIRC, one of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales includes Hades and Persephone as the king and queen of the fairies or something alone those lines1. Though my personal favorite take on the couple is from George O'Conner's The Olympians, a series of graphic novels about the twelve major gods, with the fourth book, Hades: Lord of the Dead, focused mainly on Hades and Persephone's story. It also presents Demeter as being pretty badass, and Hecate as being very clever. The series also gets major bonus points from me for being one of the few to present Hera in a positive light and give her side of things.


      1Which is still less crazy than some of the stuff from WW2 era comic books. Like, "Egyptian hero Hercules went to Valhalla when he died" levels of crazy.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

        I think the "everyone hates Hades" trope is a fairly recent thing. IIRC, one of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales includes Hades and Persephone as the king and queen of the fairies or something alone those lines1. Though my personal favorite take on the couple is from George O'Conner's The Olympians, a series of graphic novels about the twelve major gods, with the fourth book, Hades: Lord of the Dead, focused mainly on Hades and Persephone's story. It also presents Demeter as being pretty badass, and Hecate as being very clever. The series also gets major bonus points from me for being one of the few to present Hera in a positive light and give her side of things.


        1Which is still less crazy than some of the stuff from WW2 era comic books. Like, "Egyptian hero Hercules went to Valhalla when he died" levels of crazy.
        The trope is actually very old, with refernces to this on some paints on the Sistine Chapel, and on the construction of hell in The Divine Comedy (where Dis is shown as just another name for Satan).
        Even on the day to day life people make this assumption. Every time I say my dog's name (yeah, Hades) to someone, if they are christian, they judge and say it's "a bad name because of hell and bla bla bla"

        I really need to check on these works!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ulbrecht View Post

          Every time I say my dog's name (yeah, Hades) to someone, if they are christian, they judge and say it's "a bad name because of hell and bla bla bla"
          I am Christian and find the name clever and cute, mainly because Hades -> Pluto -> Mickey Mouse's dog.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
            I am Christian and find the name clever and cute, mainly because Hades -> Pluto -> Mickey Mouse's dog.
            Sorry if my comment sounded rude on anyway!

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            • #21
              Oh, I'm not offended or anything. I just mentioned it for context.

              I will add that the Pomegranate Deme and the Hierochthonoi generally derive a lot of their rituals and initiations from the old Eleusinian Mysteries and Orphic Mysteries, including underground initiation rituals meant to symbolize the journey of Persephone (and Orpheus) into the Underworld.
              Interestingly, this whole mystery cult thing is going to be extremely common among Awakened of the Classical Greek and Roman eras, including various Ecstatic sects devoted to Dionysus and Cybele, Chorus Mithras groups, Hermetic groups devoted to Isis, Verbena devotes of Hecate, Demeter, and Artemis, and even proto-Explorators (Void Engineers) following the Samothracian Mysteries.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #22
                Of course with Euthanatoi it's not just a "symbolic" journey to the Underworld.


                I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                  Of course with Euthanatoi it's not just a "symbolic" journey to the Underworld.
                  True. At the very least, it likely uses a mix of hallucinogens and other drugs to produce an "out of body"/near death/astral projection experience.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                    Just speaking personally, I've always interpreted their original function to be defending the rest of the Hierochthonoi, especially the Pomegranate Deme, and the sites and objects that are sacred to their faith. This includes various Nodes, Chantries, and Talismans, as well as various places and individuals marked by Fate as being important and in need of protection. During the medieval period, this likely expanded to include certain Christian holy sites which were either marked by Fate or which the Hierochthonoi had adapted as fronts or through cultural syncretism. By the time of the Ascension War, this certainly expanded further into helping defend locations important to the other Traditions.
                    Their other main function, as indicated by their name, would be to police the Restless Dead, at least those who insist on interacting with (or interfering with) the living. Because the Euthanatoi are primarily psychopomps, this means helping the restless dead settle their business and hopefully move on along the Great Wheel without the burden of shame or other damaging baggage. However, it also means keeping the restless dead in line and keeping them from just doing whatever they want. Sometimes it means exorcising, punishing or even destroying them. They should always strive for fairness and integrity in this judgment, and hopefully a certain degree of mercy as well.

                    As far as their magical stylings, they very likely share a lot of the same Greek mystery cult rituals as the Pomegranate Deme they originated from. In addition, they draw heavily on the power of sacred oaths and vows (see the swearing by the River Styx bit above). Essentially, if they swear to do something, then Fate with try to help them along via the various effects of Entropy that deal with probability and chance, as well as other suitable effects (Life magic that keeps them or their charges from dying, for example, or Time magic that impacts timing or being able to perform multiple actions at once, or Spirit magic which summons helpful ghosts, lampads (underworld nymphs), or even the Furies). This is further augmented with traditional knightly sacraments that have been adapted to the Chthonic faith. Basically blessings bestowed by any of the above gods. The most blatantly obvious and useful would be that of Kratos granting temporary superhuman strength (via Life magic), but it could be almost anything. The Knights also undoubtably have a long tradition and vast collection of Talisman weapons that range from the Ancient Greek era to the modern day.
                    In this light, the Knights of Radamanthys work a lot like D&D Paladins (appropriate, since their heyday was around the same period we started seeing stories of Charlemagne's Twelve Peers). Knights that swear oaths to acquire supernatural power, in service to a holy cause.

                    Just, you know, the holy cause is to Fate and the cthonic gods of Greece and Rome.

                    (Speaking of D&D, now I want to add something like this to my homebrew D&D world.)


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                      In this light, the Knights of Radamanthys work a lot like D&D Paladins (appropriate, since their heyday was around the same period we started seeing stories of Charlemagne's Twelve Peers). Knights that swear oaths to acquire supernatural power, in service to a holy cause.

                      Just, you know, the holy cause is to Fate and the cthonic gods of Greece and Rome.
                      There's probably certain aspects of it among the Irish/Celtic factions of the Euthanatos as well, using the power of geas.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                        In this light, the Knights of Radamanthys work a lot like D&D Paladins (appropriate, since their heyday was around the same period we started seeing stories of Charlemagne's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin"]Twelve Peers[/URL]). Knights that swear oaths to acquire supernatural power, in service to a holy cause.

                        Just, you know, the holy cause is to Fate and the cthonic gods of Greece and Rome.

                        (Speaking of D&D, now I want to add something like this to my homebrew D&D world.)
                        Fascinating! I love it. I always wanted to do something interesting with the Knights of Rhadamanthys.


                        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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                        • #27
                          I've always wanted playable Paladins who don't serve God/stereotypical Lawful Good stand-ins.

                          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                          True. At the very least, it likely uses a mix of hallucinogens and other drugs to produce an "out of body"/near death/astral projection experience.
                          And this makes me question how the Euthanatoi can have unawakened linear sorcerer members. Don't you have to Awaken to bring yourself back from the Underworld? Or do they let anyone with any kind of near-death experience become an apprentice? It just seems to me that anyone who comes back from the dead would end up Awakened, one way or another.
                          Last edited by Erinys; 02-21-2021, 11:37 PM.


                          I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
                          Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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                          • #28
                            Linear members of the Euthanatos aren't expected to undergo the full sojourn ritual that the Awakened do; even if some sort of ritual near death experience is expected. Even so, the magic necessary for going to the Underworld as part of their initiation rites is difficult enough that it is normally cast by an experienced member of the Tradition, not the new member. They can theoretically send anyone through it that they want; including linears.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Erinys View Post
                              And this makes me question how the Euthanatoi can have unawakened linear sorcerer members. Don't you have to Awaken to bring yourself back from the Underworld? Or do they let anyone with any kind of near-death experience become an apprentice? It just seems to me that anyone who comes back from the dead would end up Awakened, one way or another.
                              Possibly astral projection or something similar to what the Benandanti (from Wraith's The Quick & The Dead and - IIRC - Mediums) can do. They have a power or ritual called Ekstasis that allows them to project themselves into the underworld. However, I don't have my copy of it handy at the moment to check for specifics.

                              As for a-typical Paladins, way back in the OGL days, Mongoose Publishing's The Quintessential Paladin gave a lot of good ideas for those, including revolutionaries fighting against tyrannical regimes, Batman-esque vigilantes, champions of Love, and others. (Unfortunately, my copy is buried in a closet and I can't get to it atm.) Pathfinder's first edition also has a lot of interesting Paladin takes, taking full advantage of the fact that they can be devoted to gods one step removed from Lawful Good (ie Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral), each with their own specific set of oaths and ideals. This includes the LN god of civilization and banking, the LN monk-god of enlightenment and self-perfection, the NG goddess of love, art and beauty (whose fallen brother is literally the god of Clive Barker's Cenobites), and my personal favorite, the NG god of athletics and healthy competition. Plus the LG stag-headed god of small communities, farming and hunting.


                              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                                There's probably certain aspects of it among the Irish/Celtic factions of the Euthanatos as well, using the power of geas.
                                Indeed; the Aided aren't particularly necromantic in their approach to fate. They're very much Euthanatos, in that a significant part of their practices involve determining how one is going to die; but the Aided don't really have much of an association with Agama Sojourns, for instance. Indeed, there are lots of members of the Tradition that I'd never think of as being associated with necromancy; members who are more interested in studying and shaping the effects of fate upon the living, and not just (or even primarily) when death is on the line.

                                Likewise with the Heirochthonoi: there are, after all, three Fates: one who spins the thread, one who measures it, and one who cuts it. To hear people talk about the Euthanatoi, you'd think that all of the Heirochthonoi worship the thread-cutter. But there's as much in the Tradition about birth and life as there is about death and the afterlife.


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