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  • Now I am more and more confused.

    Either the NPG joined the Order of Reason in 1193 and dissolved. Or it appeared out of nowhere in 1851 and called itself the Society of Ether in 1861, 100 years before scientists first proposed the ether theory. What?

    The Voltarian Order or the Voltaic Order?

    The High Guild split in what year? And into what, please? I thought the Golden Guild was three separate guilds (Golden Pyramid, Golden Coin, and Golden Wheel) that merged together into the Golden Guild at some point. And I thought the High Guild became the Invisible Exchequer in 1851.

    What year did the Explorers' Society form? What year did they change into the Explorators? What year did they change into the Void Engineers?

    Nothing makes any sense now. Could someone please replace my failed diagram with a new, correct and accurate diagram?


    I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
    Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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    • First of all, the Ether Theory of light originated in the middle of the 19th century, in the 1850s and 1860s more or less. A hundred years later (1950s, post-WWII), it was well and truly dead. This is real-world history.

      Getting back to the WoD history: the Natural Philosophers' Guild was founded in the 12th century. It didn't last long after its founder died, but continued on within other Conventions over the centuries, with the defining feature being the Kitab al-Alacir. That is, for the next 700 years, there wasn't an official Natural Philosopher's Guild; but there were individuals in the various Conventions who were Awakened by the Book of Ether, and they formed a continuation of the Natural Philosophers' Guild in spirit.

      It reemerged in the 1800s during the chaos of that century, and joined with the Voltaic Order to form the Electrodyne Engineers.

      The High Guild split into the Golden Guild and the Invisible Exchequers; as voting Blocs began to form over the next fifty years, those two Conventions tended to vote together as the Syndicate. The Golden Guild is presented as having been a single faction from its start in the Victorian Age; the manuscript makes no mention of a Golden Pyramid/Coin/Wheel divide. That comes from Sorcerers Crusade, and its a 13th century development where those three groups join up with the Craftmasons. The Golden Guild mentioned in Victorian Mage is, as far as I know, unrelated to that one.

      The Void Seekers and Celestial Masters started working together in the late 19th century as the Exploratory Society; no specific founding year is given. The Exploratory Society was rechristened the Void Engineers and made into a formal Convention in 1897.


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      • Daedaleans/Artisans > Order of Reason (1325) > Technocratic Union (1851) > [Great Housecleaning 1897]

        League of Constructors (~1861-1897)
        • Artificers (1480 bce) > join Order of Reason (1325) > International Brotherhood of Mechanicians (1851) > Iteration X (1897)
        • some Analytical Reckoners (temporarily ~1861-1897)
        • some Electrodyne Engineers (temporarily ~1861-1897)
        Ixoi (before 700 bce) > House of Ixion (year?) > Ksirafai convention (1336) > Hermetic House Janissary (1600s-1716)

        Grand Faculty (~1861-1897)
        • Cosian Circle (400 bce) > Hippocratic Circle (when?) > Æsculapian Order (1851) > Progenitors (1897?)
        • some Analytical Reckoners (temporarily ~1861-1897)
        • some Electrodyne Engineers (temporarily ~1861-1897)
        Gabrielites (320 ce) > Cabal of Pure Thought in Sacred Congregation (800) > joined Order of Reason (1325) > driven out, survivors form Disparate Knights Templar (1830s); a few become Lightkeepers instead

        Ivory Tower (~1861 - 1880s or 1890s?) + Operatives > New World Order (1914)
        • a few Gabrielites > Lightkeepers (1851)
        • Skeleton Keys (joined Union on Queen Victoria’s insistence)
        Craftmasons (997) > join Artisans (1210) > merge with Golden Pyramid Guild, Gold Coin Guild, and Golden Wheel Guild (1250) > join Order of Reason (1325) > destroyed (1670)

        a few Craftmasons > High Guild (1325) > split into Invisible Exchequer (1861) and Golden Guild (1861?)
        Syndicate (late 1800s) > merged back together as Syndicate (1897)
        • Invisible Exchequer (1861)
        • Golden Guild (1861)
        Hermetic House Golo (1171) > Natural Philosopher's Guild (1188) > dissolved among the Artisans (1193) > restarted under the name Society of Ether (late 1850s or early 1860s ?)

        Voltarian Order (1806) + Society of Ether > Electrodyne Engineers (1866) > voting informally split between League of Constructors and the Grand Faculty (1861) > re-merged (1897) > Sons of Ether tradition (1906) > Society of Ether (2000s)

        Exploratory Society/Explorators (~1861-1897) > Void Engineers (1897)
        • Celestial Masters (1300)
        • Void Seekers (1325)
        Difference Engineers (1823) > Analytical Reckoners (1851) > voting informally split between League of Constructors and the Grand Faculty (1861) > Virtual Adepts (1880s) > join Traditions (1956) > Mercurial Elite (2000s)


        better?


        I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
        Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

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        • Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
          So is the “Mübarek Maharet Meclisi” the Turkic name for the institution known in Arabic as “Mokteshaf al Nour”?

          See page 128 of Mage20.


          Ian A. A. Watson
          Onyx Path Community Manager
          Trinity Continuum Content Lead

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          • Originally posted by IanWatson View Post


            See page 128 of Mage20.
            Thanks! So more the Ottoman successor to the latter having declined with the Abbasids.


            Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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            • Does anyone know when the Cosian Circle became the Hippocratic Circle?

              Also, does anyone else feel like it's a bit ... coincidental ... that the two conventions who ditched the Technocracy were also the last to joinn the Union? It sort of feels like it's implying they were never really Technocrats, and therefore one doesn't have to feel bad about playing one (if all other Technocrats = automatically bad), or something. I don't have the manuscript to read, of course.
              Last edited by Erinys; 03-10-2021, 11:37 PM.


              I am extremely literal-minded and always write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
              Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

              Comment


              • I admit to being kind of amusing that a large part of the issues here are from the very basic premise that was always a major part of mage.

                Technocracy....bad.

                Technocracy....world domination obsessed technomagic-using conquerors.

                Technocracy....bad.




                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  I admit to being kind of amusing that a large part of the issues here are from the very basic premise that was always a major part of mage.

                  Technocracy....bad.

                  Technocracy....world domination obsessed technomagic-using conquerors.

                  Technocracy....bad.

                  ...issues that got phased out after Mage 1e, because people found the idea of mainstream scientists being Objectively Evil to be ridiculous. And that Mage as "Traditions = GOOD vs Technocracy = EVIL" makes no sense. Moreso now as time went on and in the wake of...particular current events.

                  (Or to be blunt: "No, the Technocracy is NOT magickal-Pentex")

                  Although personally I think it's because Technocracy-as-sci-fi being much easier for new players to wrap their heads around since that's a lot more accessible, versus the Traditions and Crafts that are based on real-world cultures. Where if you had no personal cultural background in or studied them academically, you were locked out of them.

                  Like me personally: I have no background or knowledge of Hinduism or any monotheistic religion. So I feel it would be kind of awkward to play a Chakravanti or a Choristor.

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                  • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                    ...issues that got phased out after Mage 1e, because people found the idea of mainstream scientists being Objectively Evil to be ridiculous.
                    I feel like the problem was that they missed they were fascists first, scientists second.

                    Obviously, the past few years indicates that the people in charge of the world are not interested in science but control.

                    Which means the Union must be evil or the Union is not in charge, the Nephandi is.

                    But yes, Victorian Age Mage will be very much at the heart of "technology as the weapon of colonialism, racism, and Empire building."


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      I feel like the problem was that they missed they were fascists first, scientists second.
                      ...which is a problematic view because the Union are specifically coded as mainstream scientists.

                      And I've spoken to Mage fans who are IRL scientists...and yeah, they don't like that 1e was telling them that being a scientist or believing in science makes one an evil fascist.

                      (one of said fans being Jewish, and who finds it doubly offensive considering their heritage)

                      Plus, Mage just fundamentally doesn't work if you take it into black and white moral absolutism and say that Traditions = GOOD and Technocracy = EVIL.

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                      • Honestly the more that I think about it, the idea of a faction of magic users who use the British Empire as a means to spread control and oppression isn't inherently a bad idea. It works fine...

                        ...in Mage: the Awakening.

                        Swap it out with the Seers of the Throne, who are much more unambiguously EVIL, in motivation have always been tied to being about control and oppression, and NOT being tied to mainstream science the same way that the Technocracy are.

                        So it would make sense if this was a Dark Era for Mage: the Awakening. It does not make sense to do it within Mage: the Ascension.

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                        • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                          ...issues that got phased out after Mage 1e, because people found the idea of mainstream scientists being Objectively Evil to be ridiculous. And that Mage as "Traditions = GOOD vs Technocracy = EVIL" makes no sense. Moreso now as time went on and in the wake of...particular current events.

                          (Or to be blunt: "No, the Technocracy is NOT magickal-Pentex")

                          Although personally I think it's because Technocracy-as-sci-fi being much easier for new players to wrap their heads around since that's a lot more accessible, versus the Traditions and Crafts that are based on real-world cultures. Where if you had no personal cultural background in or studied them academically, you were locked out of them.

                          Like me personally: I have no background or knowledge of Hinduism or any monotheistic religion. So I feel it would be kind of awkward to play a Chakravanti or a Choristor.
                          Right...which might be a problematic manifestation of the real world processes of global hegemony, colonization, and white supremacy. The Technocracy is based on a real-world culture--white culture. "Mainstream", "conventional", "accessible", and "take-for-granted" are all terms of a global white hegemony. "Global" culture can be easily traced to historical and contemporary practices that seek to make white culture disappear and become the invisible global culture--or not culture at all. This isn't to say that I am anti-science--I'm an environmental and sustainability scientist at a major Midwestern University--, but I do believe that perpetuating a deracialized and dehistoricized science or modernity is dangerous.

                          Like maybe there is a problem that a majority of the fanbase (or new players) can so easily sees themselves in the Technocracy? No shade, I love the new write-ups and think it makes the Technocracy actually worth playing, but maybe it's something to be reflective of why that is the case. Similarly, why is it easier imagine a global non-ethnoracial, non-religious, and non-local group of Mages using the trapping of modernity (e.g., science, capitalism, individual rights) for their magic when these groups also can use them? The Dreamspeakers have the Ghost Wheel Society to speak to that very reality. Other groups either or could be made to have similar factions. Hell, I rolled up a character that was a Ex-Void Engineer combat vet turned Kopa Loei who can't really shake the techno bug to aid in his return to traditional navigation because of the over representation of Hawaiian (and other BIPOC folks in the U.S. Military).

                          I'm also not saying that people have to play what represents who they are. I get that. But it does seem like Mage is a game that asks players to stretch to think about why some choices are easier than others. The game provides an in-game metaphor for it--Reality Zones. Sometimes depending on where you are, who you are, what's around you, and what you do makes certain character choices more Paradoxical. Allusion intentional.
                          Last edited by lladas; 03-11-2021, 09:57 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                            ...which is a problematic view because the Union are specifically coded as mainstream scientists.

                            And I've spoken to Mage fans who are IRL scientists...and yeah, they don't like that 1e was telling them that being a scientist or believing in science makes one an evil fascist.

                            (one of said fans being Jewish, and who finds it doubly offensive considering their heritage)

                            Plus, Mage just fundamentally doesn't work if you take it into black and white moral absolutism and say that Traditions = GOOD and Technocracy = EVIL.
                            The solution to this, IMHO, is to introduce Enlightened Scientists who are not Technocrats, and who can represent science and technology that isn't being used to control and destroy. The Etherites and VAs were originally intended to fill this role; though for various reasons, the same people that tend to not like the Technocracy representing science because it paints science as evil, also tend to find the Etherites and VAs unsatisfactory as the counterpoint. And in the Victorian Age (which, remember, is what this thread is about), they're part of the Technocracy. So they can't be an alternative to it.


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                            • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                              Honestly the more that I think about it, the idea of a faction of magic users who use the British Empire as a means to spread control and oppression isn't inherently a bad idea. It works fine...

                              ...in Mage: the Awakening.

                              Swap it out with the Seers of the Throne, who are much more unambiguously EVIL, in motivation have always been tied to being about control and oppression, and NOT being tied to mainstream science the same way that the Technocracy are.

                              So it would make sense if this was a Dark Era for Mage: the Awakening. It does not make sense to do it within Mage: the Ascension.
                              I kind of disagree with that notion.

                              The Seers in Awakening are kind of detached of real world history by design. But this is an actual historical problem with real consequences that span to the current day and the Technocratic Union is the faction that is culturally tied to it, like it or not. The options are to tackle it and making it clear how bad it was (and sometimes still is) or to ignore it and go into fully whitewash romanticed victorian era (like many other stuff does). And of course, the latter is not a sensible option.
                              Last edited by History; 03-11-2021, 06:14 AM.

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                              • Yep. Mage is fictional, but it's a kind of fiction that it's loaded with political and historical comentary. That's why going full whitewash romantic it's not sensible.

                                This time the "bad guy" ball it's well within the OoR park (It's arguably their darkest time, in a sense - Crafmason blood, and broken ideals, still fresh in their hands).

                                Usually it's in the OoH park, and nobody complains. Heck, in the Victorian Era this isn't the exception, the Order of Hermes are very much bad guys on board with colonialism, just to a lesser degree 'cuz they have less power. Yet nobody demands Houses that are universally less bigoted than most of the Order is (Well, there's always House Ex, but that's almost a comentary on segregation).

                                The reason, as stated above: We don't really have much alternatives to play science mages in this era.

                                But the answer it's not to divorce European science from the evils of imperialism. As Erinys posted, those advancements had the potential to be universaly good, but ultimately were made, intended, and used, as a way to further the goals of the empire and little more. The inventions aren't an exception to imperialism's evils. They are an example of imperialism.

                                I would imagine there were OoR members that were against such practices but, as part of an organization, they obviously weren't calling the shots.

                                In my opinion, the best answer to this nerdy problem of "we wan't science to be good" it's not to whitewash the OoR but ... to aknowledge for once that science wasn't invented by Europe, and that it's colonialist practices weren't a necessary evil to spread it, but rather just the way it was.

                                To aknowledge that while European OoR certainly were able to asceleate the spread and dominance of Technomancy trough most *horrific* practices, the magick of science was everywhere - that technomancers existed everywhere, and could have evolved in different ways.

                                Dataweaver : That would also give more credence of the idea that technomancy isn't just mages that delude themselves in thinking objective truth exists out there. If the principles of technomancy are everywhere, then technomancy shouldn't be the sole province of Queen Victoria's OoR - incidentaly, this is canon because it's canon that there were technomancers everywhere, but their history it's so small and so tied to the european branch of the OoR that they end being "assimilated" by it

                                And if it's bad taste to say Victorian Technocrats weren't the bad guys, it's also bad taste to say technomancers in the colonized parts of the world were always accomplice of their colonizers.

                                What would be better?. To say that reason mages actualy *weren't* always in the same side as the Victorian OoR (Much like how many Traditions fell and went Disparate, why can't we have Disparate scientists?).

                                That this was erased from Mage history because neither the Technocracy nor the Traditions see such a history as a good thing to share (The Technocracy, because that would make them the bad guys in that era, the Traditions becuse they were largely ruled by mystics that ain't fans of technomancy, and ex-OoR)
                                Last edited by Aleph; 03-11-2021, 08:38 AM.

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