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  • #16
    You can manipulate a person's emotional state using Mind; or, if your paradigm includes the notion of biochemistry, you can use Life to trigger the appropriate hormones. In a similar way, I'd allow Matter to manipulate the heat or coldness property of a material; or I'd allow Forces to do it more directly, whether or not the heat or chill resides in Matter.


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    • #17
      If you want to theme your character around an element, perhaps he would be better off a hedge wizard?


      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
      There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
        But Heavy Arms was specifically referring to the ice being at the same temperature as the glass, and enduring like that until the duration ends. That kind of 'impossible matter' is specifically a Matter 5 thing.
        It's a weird artifact of how Matter 2 is written that ceases to be an issue when you hit Matter 3 anyway.

        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
        ,,,can Matter do cold w/o the ice?
        ...
        Does Matter allow you to cool and heat stuff?
        At Matter 3+? Yes as long as you're manipulating a matter pattern. The Sphere system really doesn't worry about the idea that you can get the same end result in multiple ways.

        I assumed that heat and cold are properties of the Forces Sphere - Matter w/o Forces allows to create stuff that *can* exist at the current temperature, or stuff that it's Vulgar (like: by creating water, and altering the temperature it melts, effectively making room temperature ice)
        Temperature falls under Forces. How hot or cold something is falls under the relevant pattern Sphere.

        Whether you use Forces or a different Sphere is more a matter of approach than anything else due to what the end results will be.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
          At Matter 3+? Yes as long as you're manipulating a matter pattern.
          You seem pretty sure about this Matter 3+ .

          I've read the Sphere entries in M20 and Revised, and there isn't anything that would suggest me one way or another. However, HDYDT does imply that you need only Matter to cause Ice (that does damage from it's cold alone), but it's a very passing mention (and that chapter makes some odd choices, like altering the internal biochemistry of a living being requiring Matter 2).

          So, I'm curious: do you have other sources or precedents?

          The Sphere system really doesn't worry about the idea that you can get the same end result in multiple ways.
          The Sphere system doesn't worry about that idea, no. But at the same time, it isn't shy about requiring conjunctional Spheres when an Effect could fall under two domains.

          Like undead, that require Matter and Life because their pattern has properties of both. If you treat temperature as a Forces pattern that's usually found fused within Matter patterns, I think you could say producing or altering a material so it causes noticeable energetical reactions requires Forces.

          And that's why you always see Forces in Effects to set someone or something in fire, instead of just using Matter or Life to rapidly oxidize the target in a chemical process of combustion (If we go to science, Forces it's the strange Sphere. That can create "fire" regardless of the fact the flame it's a material object. As per Google: "Flames consist primarily of carbon dioxide, water vapor, oxygen and nitrogen").

          It's also kinda implied in how the Sphere treats radioactive materials, and how the description of the Sphere says that in conjunction with Forces it can "activate" matter (and how HDYDT makes so you need Forces to make explosives, and to create a car that can move. Even when it treats an Ice Wall, so cold that can cause direct damage to people that it's close, as pure Matter)

          Really. I can see it either way. But I can't see it clearly either way w/o further input

          If the main justification it's going to be: "Both Mind and Life (at a higher level) can alter the emotions, so why not?". That's canon, but also a bit of a slippery slope. You go there and you end with ppl materializing Ice with Forces because matter it's energy at the subatomic level. Creating flames with Matter because fire it's basically formed of hot material...and stuff like that.

          It's not necessarily incorrect, and potential abuse can be averted by making blattant attempts at having the "Sphere of everything" to require higher levels, and costing more successes. Still not my favorite justification.

          BTW: As per M20, you need Prime 2/Matter 3 to conjure the element. At least that it's cristal clear, I was wrong about it being Matter 2

          Note to avoid confusing the topic: It does seem that ice falls within the purview of Matter. I proposed Forces because I understood it as element + cold (Matter + Forces), but it does seem legit to control ice with Matter alone, treating cold as a property of matter instead of a distinct thing. At least one book unequivocally does, so there's that
          Last edited by Aleph; 03-02-2021, 01:38 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            If the main justification it's going to be: "Both Mind and Life (at a higher level) can alter the emotions, so why not?". That's canon, but also a bit of a slippery slope. You go there and you end with ppl materializing Ice with Forces because matter it's energy at the subatomic level. Creating flames with Matter because fire it's basically formed of hot material...and stuff like that.

            It's not necessarily incorrect, and potential abuse can be averted by making blatant attempts at having the "Sphere of everything" to require higher levels, and costing more successes. Still not my favorite justification.
            Agreed that it can be a slippery slope; and I'm not a fan of doing this without the Storyteller being able to rule that a given off-beat use of a Sphere will require more dots and/or more successes (and with a bias toward the latter). My rule of thumb is that if a player is wanting to do something that's technically outside of the letter of a Sphere writeup but fits thematically to some extent, I multiply the number of successes required: by 1 if the proposed Effect matches the Sphere's themes perfectly, by two if it's a good match but not perfect, by five if it's a poor fit but still kinda sorta works, and by “LOL nope!” if it's a patently absurd excuse. (If the player insists on trying anyway and I'm feeling very generous, I might allow him to try with a success multiple of ten.)

            IMHO, you should be able to treat any Sphere as a “Sphere of everything” given an appropriate Focus and enough creativity; but just because any given Sphere can do nearly anything, that doesn't mean that it can do nearly anything well.
            Last edited by Dataweaver; 03-02-2021, 04:55 PM.


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