Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Reality Zones and the Umbra

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    It's even more ironic to associate the Technocracy with stasis, given that they are the group that most commony *changes* and adjusts the world more than any other. Heck, they overhauled the world at large in passing centuries.
    Just because they don't like the changes *others* have in mind does not mean that they, themselves, are static; Not at all. Anything else is a very, VERY 1st-edition view of the Union. Even order requires change and adjustment ever so often.

    As M20 points out no Mage is static. They always have the drive to advance and learn and seek. Even those among the Union.
    Their nature and essence might be one of stability, patterns and logic, but no Mage is associated with literal stasis. The exception *might* be the Negation Men type of Marauders as they are essentially anti-Marauders in a way.
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-26-2021, 06:20 AM.


    cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
    cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
    EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

    Comment


    • #47
      I have had some really bad days and trouble putting my thoughts in words. I can’t keep up with how fast everyone else posts. This might come across angry but I am not angry, just having a really really bad day at work.


      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      Mage cosmology isn't about everything being equally true or false. It's more about truth being non-binary, and more up for grabs. As has been pointed out by others, there are Earthly Foundations which resist being redefined by the Consensus, meaning that the Consensus isn't always right — which is a good thing, because the Consensus has had some pretty dumb ideas in it at times.
      I may have to table my "Help me grok Mage" thread/derail until [the construction ends and I can] get some decent sleep. Or until I find time to read M20, ooohhh my god it's like 700 pages long.

      But, uh, yeah there have to be things that don't change. Lots of big things. Otherwise, millennia before empires and evangelical religions and colonialism and the Order of Reason and globalism started assimilating everyone, the Earth would have... exploded into separate pieces. Not just separate Umbral Realms, I mean the Earth would be a bunch of city-sized pocket universes unconnected to each other. In fact there has to be something holding together Reality Zones with utterly incompatible cosmology and theology. Because the 6000-year-old sin-dirtied Fallen world created by an omniscient transcendent God is not remotely compatible with the billions-of-years-old atheist world of mechanistic particles, or the Pagan world that's is the soul of a living immanent Divinity where every single patch of earth is sacred ground. Those aren't even separate Umbras, they're separate genres.

      I can comprehend not knowing what is True, but where the most fundamental foundations of the cosmos change by the city block, or by the decade? Nope does not compute. Maybe I'm too much the literal thinker. I'm a big Planescape fan, but this is .... blkdsahuhsdnfnjksh


      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      M20 introduced the notion of Reality Zones, which means that there isn't a single, global Consensus; instead, there are a lot of local ones. This means that it doesn't matter how vast something is, for the most part; the residence in New York City have no say in the Reality Zones in upper New York State, and vice versa.
      You missed my point. For every physical, material, spirit-less world, there are a whole bunch of matter-less spirit worlds not to mention there's that whole information Hypersphere. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of the cosmos(es) is (are) spiritual or mental, not material. A spirit-less, fae-less world made out of particles is the exception, not the rule.


      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      As you say, Werewolf's position is that Stasis and the Weaver are one and the same. By contrast, Mage takes the position that the map is not the terrain. The spirit of a tree is not the tree. And the spirit of Stasis, the Weaver, is not Stasis.
      The Weaver is not the “spirit of” Stasis. The Weaver isn’t a “spirit of” anything in Werewolf. It is an impersonal, non-material force of nature which shapeshifters personify in their sacred myths. The way it’s personified in their stories just doesn’t matter at a cosmic level. It’s not literally a spider, it just has spiders. If you have a hangup with it being personified, just ignore that .

      There are 3 problems causing confusion here about Stasis/Weaver.

      #1 Is that every Werewolf book, and all the shapeshifters, personify the Triat. Everything they see has an intelligent spirit, and they feel the love of Gaia in their souls. So they assume that huge cosmic forces are people too. They depict them having arguments, going insane, suffering pain, etc. But, there’s no proof that the Triat are people in any such way (the Urge-Wyrms seem to suggest it, but aren’t proof). Nobody talks directly to them. Queen Ananasa, who apparently interacted directly with them, describes them in personified terms to her Ananasi children, but who knows if that’s metaphor, or dumbing down something transcendent, or just lies. And note that they’re rarely or never called ‘spirits’. They transcend spirits the way Oracles transcend dogs. They are almost certainly far too vast to be called people, let alone specifically spirits.

      If you can look past how the shapeshifters reflexively personify everything IC, it’s clear the writers intended the Triat and Metaphysic Trinity to be the same. They are three vast cosmic forces that move the Tellurian: creation/change, preservation/stability/stasis, and destruction/entropy. God only knows if they’re intelligent people or mindless energy fields or neither or both or blue. The cosmos sure seems to be out of “balance” but nobody entirely understands what that truly means.

      And on the other hand, I doubt there is OOC proof in Mage that the Metaphysical Trinity absolutely are not, have never been, cannot possibly be, sapient or sentient in any way at all.


      #2 Problem is that the writers unwisely tied all technological invention to Stasis. Perhaps this was supposed to be a post-modern Statement about industrial ‘progress’, but it sends the wrong message and makes no sense. Changeling handles this much better. Lots of technological inventions are more Dynamic or Entropic than Static.


      #3 Problem is that Stasis is poorly named. The Changeling name is more fitting: Banality. Or call it Reductionism. That drive to reduce everything to physics and chemistry, to eliminate all notions of the spiritual, the sacred, the religious, the life-forces of beings, the meaning of things and events. To discover and name and catalogue and control everything, to end mystery and chaos and the unknown. I compiled a list of examples but I don't want to derail another thread.

      The Metaphysic Trinity encompass the entire cosmos and every possible action and concept with only 3 forces. Everything not exquisitely balanced is tilted towards one or two of them somehow. And probably, Banality/Stasis is to healthy Preservation what Nephandic perversity is to normal healthy Destruction/Entropy/Death, and Marauder batshit insanity is to healthy Dynamism.

      OOCly, in 1E the Marauders, Technocrats, and Nephandi seem to be antagonists representing insane extremes of the Trinity. Then they [realized science=bad was stupid and] made the Technocrats playable, and finally made the crazy Stasis-freaks into Threat Null instead.


      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      True. and the same holds true of werewolves, vampires, wraiths, changelings, and every other denizen of the World of Darkness. They all have their beliefs about the origins of the universe, but none have any way to verify.
      Exactly! Which is why you shouldn't take it literally when they call the Weaver a Spider. Or a spirit.

      (I was originally talking about having records of events in the most recent Ice Age, which is a different story from anyone knowing how the universe was created or what the Wyrm's favorite apterif is.)


      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      It's made of information, which I would say is to thoughts as Matter is to Life. How it differs from the Astral Umbra is a good question; but it does differ.
      Okaayy... still not comprehending. Are you able to expand on this? Maybe in another thread if you prefer? Or refer to a page # in M20 that would help?
      Last edited by Erinys; 03-26-2021, 11:53 PM.


      She/Her. I am very literal-minded and write very literally. If I don't say something explicitly, please never assume I implied it. The only exception is if I try to joke.
      My point of view may be different from yours but is equally valid.
      Exalted and cWoD book list. Exalted name-generators, Infernal and 1E-2.5E homebrew from many authors.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        I have had some really bad days and trouble putting my thoughts in words. I can’t keep up with how fast everyone else posts. This might come across angry but I am not angry, just having a really really bad day at work.
        For what it's worth, you have my sympathy. I've also been going through a rough time recently.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        I may have to table my "Help me grok Mage" thread/derail until [the construction ends and I can] get some decent sleep. Or until I find time to read M20, ooohhh my god it's like 700 pages long.
        Yeah; I get that, too. One thing I really hope that they do when M5 comes out eventually is to go with a much smaller core book, and to introduce Mage's themes and ideas a bit at a time instead of dumping everything on the reader all at once.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        I can comprehend not knowing what is True, but where the most fundamental foundations of the cosmos change by the city block, or by the decade? Nope does not compute. Maybe I'm too much the literal thinker. I'm a big Planescape fan, but this is .... blkdsahuhsdnfnjksh
        And I'm still with you. All that stuff you just said about there needing to be some things that don't change? That's what Earthly Foundations are all about.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        You missed my point. For every physical, material, spirit-less world, there are a whole bunch of matter-less spirit worlds not to mention there's that whole information Hypersphere. It's pretty clear that the vast majority of the cosmos(es) is (are) spiritual or mental, not material. A spirit-less, fae-less world made out of particles is the exception, not the rule.
        This is where we start to disagree — though even here, I'm willing to agree that the non-material parts of reality are far more vast than the material parts. Where I disagree with you is whether or not that matters. What I was trying to say is that the material world doesn't define what the Umbra is like, but the Umbra doesn't define what the material world is like either. It isn't a reality-wide majority rule system; where the nature of reality is open to influence by beliefs, it's primarily a local thing: the Earthly Foundations establish some basic ground rules for how things work; but beyond that, reality is defined on the local level. The vast expanses of the Umbra are too separated from the material world to partake in defining it. Earth is defined by its Earthly Foundations and by the Reality Zones created by the beliefs of those residents of Earth who have Avatars; the Umbrae are defined by their counterparts to the Earthly Foundations.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        The Weaver is not the “spirit of” Stasis. The Weaver isn’t a “spirit of” anything in Werewolf.
        I will defer to you in terms of what Werewolf says. I've never been a fan of the game; and while I'm not ignorant of it, not do I have the sort of deep knowledge of it that I have of Mage. But by the same token, that's Werewolf; it isn't Mage. In mage, there's an “Umbral Powers Hierarchy”, with Greater Spirit Entities at the top, starting with “Essential Divinity” (e.g., God/Goddess/the Great Spirit/the One), Godheads/Celestines/God-Avatars (e.g., Zeus, Inanna, Jesus, Krishna, Satan, Grandfather, the Wyrm, Maiden/Mother/Crow, etc.), and so on. Heck, even Werewolf describes the Triat as being at the top of the hierarchy of spirits. You describe the Weaver as a personification of a cosmic force: it is in that sense that I mean that it's the spirit of Stasis. If you prefer, I'll call it the personification of Stasis; it doesn't change my point: the personification of a thing is not the thing itself.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        It is an impersonal, non-material force of nature which shapeshifters personify in their sacred myths. The way it’s personified in their stories just doesn’t matter at a cosmic level. It’s not literally a spider, it just has spiders. If you have a hangup with it being personified, just ignore that .

        There are 3 problems causing confusion here about Stasis/Weaver.

        #1 Is that every Werewolf book, and all the shapeshifters, personify the Triat. Everything they see has an intelligent spirit, and they feel the love of Gaia in their souls. So they assume that huge cosmic forces are people too. They depict them having arguments, going insane, suffering pain, etc. But, there’s no proof that the Triat are people in any such way (the Urge-Wyrms seem to suggest it, but aren’t proof). Nobody talks directly to them. Queen Ananasa, who apparently interacted directly with them, describes them in personified terms to her Ananasi children, but who knows if that’s metaphor, or dumbing down something transcendent, or just lies. And note that they’re rarely or never called ‘spirits’. They transcend spirits the way Oracles transcend dogs. They are almost certainly far too vast to be called people, let alone specifically spirits.

        If you can look past how the shapeshifters reflexively personify everything IC, it’s clear the writers intended the Triat and Metaphysic Trinity to be the same. They are three vast cosmic forces that move the Tellurian: creation/change, preservation/stability/stasis, and destruction/entropy. God only knows if they’re intelligent people or mindless energy fields or neither or both or blue. The cosmos sure seems to be out of “balance” but nobody entirely understands what that truly means.

        And on the other hand, I doubt there is OOC proof in Mage that the Metaphysical Trinity absolutely are not, have never been, cannot possibly be, sapient or sentient in any way at all.
        Of course there isn't. And while you're right that there's an intentional parallel between the Triat and the Metaphysical Trinity, I have to point out that while the Metaphysical Trinity exists in Mage, it doesn't have nearly the same importance in Mage that the Triat has in Werewolf. It basically only appears in two ways in the game — both, incidentally, being legacies of the Revised edition: first, as an optional rule called Synergy, which describes how mystical energies can have flavors that are broadly categorized as Static, Dynamic, or Entropic; and second, as the three modes of Quiet: Madness, Denial, and Morbidity. That's pretty much it.

        If particular relevance to this discussion, M20 specifically says that efforts to associate the Technocracy with Stasis are an oversimplification. Likewise, there are Nephandi who “serve the Wyrm”; but to say that the Nephandi, as a whole, serve the Wyrm is a gross oversimplification of the Nephandi. And with all three aspects of the Metaphysical Trinity appearing as types of Quiet, the idea that the Marauders are inherently of the Wyld is also suspect.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        #2 Problem is that the writers unwisely tied all technological invention to Stasis. Perhaps this was supposed to be a post-modern Statement about industrial ‘progress’, but it sends the wrong message and makes no sense. Changeling handles this much better. Lots of technological inventions are more Dynamic or Entropic than Static.
        Agreed; which is part of why Mage has also moved away from the notion of technology being Static — as well as the notion of the Technocracy being Static. The other part is that the whole Static/Dynamic/Entropic thing, as I mentioned before, just doesn't have the same central role in Mage that it has in Werewolf.


        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        #3 Problem is that Stasis is poorly named. The Changeling name is more fitting: Banality. Or call it Reductionism. That drive to reduce everything to physics and chemistry, to eliminate all notions of the spiritual, the sacred, the religious, the life-forces of beings, the meaning of things and events. To discover and name and catalogue and control everything, to end mystery and chaos and the unknown. I compiled a list of examples but I don't want to derail another thread.
        No need; I get the concept.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        The Metaphysic Trinity encompass the entire cosmos and every possible action and concept with only 3 forces. Everything not exquisitely balanced is tilted towards one or two of them somehow. And probably, Banality/Stasis is to healthy Preservation what Nephandic perversity is to normal healthy Destruction/Entropy/Death, and Marauder batshit insanity is to healthy Dynamism.
        …except, as I pointed out, Mage doesn't place the same importance on the Metaphysical Trinity that Werewolf places on the Triat.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        OOCly, in 1E the Marauders, Technocrats, and Nephandi seem to be antagonists representing insane extremes of the Trinity. Then they [realized science=bad was stupid and] made the Technocrats playable, and finally made the crazy Stasis-freaks into Threat Null instead.
        True; though even there, I'm not sure that I'd say that Threat Null is Stasis-freaks. As well, Threat Null is an optional element of Mage; moreso than most of the potential antagonists in the game, it may not even exist.


        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        Exactly! Which is why you shouldn't take it literally when they call the Weaver a Spider. Or a spirit.
        personification, then.

        Originally posted by Erinys View Post
        Okaayy... still not comprehending. Are you able to expand on this? Maybe in another thread if you prefer? Or refer to a page # in M20 that would help?
        The thread has already been well and truly derailed; so no need to move to another thread.

        Computers don't think; but they process information. A book doesn't remember; but it stores information. A camera doesn't perceive anything; but it records information. Mind and information are related; but they're not the same thing.

        My comparison to Matter versus Life is this: information itself just is, and has a quality to it that's inherently inert, like a rock; a mind, by contrast, has more of the quality of something alive: it grows, changes, acts, reacts, and heals when harmed. Mind you, that's not a sharp distinction: plants are a form of Life, despite being basically inert; and a robot is Matter, despite being animate. It doesn't help that the Digital Web is by definition the part of virtual space that would be analogous to how robotics are part of Matter: it deals with “animate information” that bears a resemblance to mental activities without actually being mental activities.

        Another category scheme to consider is the notion of body, mind, and soul. Life is clearly about the body; but the notion of the body can also be generalized to deal with things that are material (Matter) and even some things that aren't material (Forces). Likewise, Mind is about, well, the mind; but the notion of the mind can be generalized to things that are fundamentally about information, but are outside the scope of the mind in the same way that matter and energy are outside the scope of the body. And virtual space is to information and the mind as the material world is to life, matter, and energy. And the distinction between virtual space and the Umbra is similar to the distinction between the mind and the soul.


        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          Computers don't think; but they process information. A book doesn't remember; but it stores information. A camera doesn't perceive anything; but it records information. Mind and information are related; but they're not the same thing.

          My comparison to Matter versus Life is this: information itself just is, and has a quality to it that's inherently inert, like a rock; a mind, by contrast, has more of the quality of something alive: it grows, changes, acts, reacts, and heals when harmed.
          Well, that's one way of seeing it.

          Other way could be to say that information itself just isn't. Information doesn't exist outside a sentient interpretation. Computers don't process information, they process ligth, electricity...It's the mind that processes the meaningless physical outputs into an meaningfull input, something that we call "information"

          Interestingly, the Digital Web denizens are made of Forces instead of Ephemera(Spirit), and the landscape too at least in the first book (and wasn't really changed in the second - it's not explicitly mentioned, but neither it's discredited. And it's used in a Rote).

          It's possible that the Digital Web, much like information, actually reacts to what we think it is: Internet it's computers, information it's strongly related to computation in the modern world, so the Zone it's energy(Forces). Maybe Quaf was Mind, or even Secrets, or another Pillar's concept (if we go by DA)

          Erinys Sorry if I'm making this more complex than it needs to be, I'm just mussing.

          In general terms, it's not part of the Umbra (or it is part of the Umbra in the same sense as the Eartly Realm it's). It actually has a Gauntlet, that one can cross with Spirit 3. If you do that, you end in the Cyberrealm (and you can enter from the Cyberrealm to the digi-web, too. That's how Werewolves and some cyber-shamans enter).
          Last edited by Aleph; 03-27-2021, 03:13 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            In Mage, if enough people believe or even imagine something, it gains an existence. Sometimes that existence is even something outside of the High Umbra. There are no given mechanics or metaphysics for this, but I could imagine a very interesting game about trying to husband something from the High Umbra into a more material reality.


            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

            Comment

            Working...
            X