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Communist/ socialist Syndicate?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    I mean, remember during WW2 the Technocracy took the side of Nazi Germany, not the Soviet Union.
    ...didn't the Traditions also side with Nazi Germany and the Axis?

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    • #17
      In both cases, it was a mixed bag.

      But also note that at the time, fascism didn't have the reputation that it does now. It was largely an untested philosophy, and even America was flirting with it. It wasn't until World War II showed everyone just how bad it can get that it got its present rreputation.

      Of course, these days, the word has nearly lost all meaning; All That Remains of it is it's bad reputation, and it's mainly used as a slur, with the people using it rarely knowing what it actually means.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

        ...didn't the Traditions also side with Nazi Germany and the Axis?
        Some of them. I was just pointing out that when forced to chose between supporting Germany's fascism or the USSR's communism, the Technocracy decided to support Fascism. No doubt there were (and are) members of the Technocracy who preferred the ideal of communism, but those individuals were in the minority.

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        • #19
          Both communism and capitalism operate within the Technocratic paradigm, which we all take for granted. Both deal in scarcity and labor, which need not be necessary when belief defines reality.

          I have long had this thought that the New World Order was behind communism while the Syndicate was behind capitalism, though a more realistic approach may be that north organization have influence over capitalism and socialism.

          In socialistic nations, we have what many call state capitalism, which could be the influence of the Syndicate. In modern capitalist nations, we have big tech companies with access to the flow of information and combined with other huge corporations have massive control over the lives of citizens: the New World Order can control people better with big business than with big governments - at least if you want to spin it that way.

          Here is a scene from the movie Network that could show a Syndicate paradigm that dominates even communist countries.

          https://youtu.be/zI5hrcwU7Dk
          Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 06-18-2021, 10:43 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
            Some of them. I was just pointing out that when forced to chose between supporting Germany's fascism or the USSR's communism, the Technocracy decided to support Fascism.
            ...the same way how some of the Traditions chose to side with German Fascism over USSR's communism?

            --------------------------------------
            Anyways, to go to my backer copy of Technocracy: Reloaded says "yes" regarding socialist Syndicate being a Thing, what with the whole thing about Infinite Shareholder Returns.

            And even then, yeah doesn't seem like a stretch to me that, for instance, the Syndicate over in Europe would have been involved in propping up and supporting the current socialist economies over there.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

              ...the same way how some of the Traditions chose to side with German Fascism over USSR's communism?
              The discussion is on the Technocracy's opinion on communism. I tend to believe that overall, the Technocracy views communism as an opposition to its end-game goals (or at least the goals of the Technocracy's leadership). To some degree that would explain why the Technocracy as a whole threw its support behind the Axis powers in WW2 rather than coming out in support of the USSR. As for the Tradition's beliefs on communism that would be a fairly different discussion. Some Traditions would support it, some would oppose and some probably wouldn't really care or would have deep divisions within the Tradition.

              Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
              --------------------------------------
              Anyways, to go to my backer copy of Technocracy: Reloaded says "yes" regarding socialist Syndicate being a Thing, what with the whole thing about Infinite Shareholder Returns.

              And even then, yeah doesn't seem like a stretch to me that, for instance, the Syndicate over in Europe would have been involved in propping up and supporting the current socialist economies over there.
              Just to note, socialism and communism are fairly different from one another. I see the Technocracy generally being in favor of socialism since that economic system is compatible with them retaining their power, while being opposed to communism.

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              • #22
                By the time World War II started, Russia's version of communism had little in common with Marx's version of communism. It was every bit as authoritarian and top down government running people's lives as Germany was. The idea that the Technocracy sided against Russia because it was a threat to them just doesn't make any sense to me.
                Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-19-2021, 12:11 AM.


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                • #23
                  For me, Mage is at its core a Punk game. You look at the world and find out that there's a secret society pulling the strings and then you do something about it. Many (most) of the problems in the world are caused by the Technocracy. And economically, capitalism is by far and away the most popular form of economy practiced in the world. There are places where it mixes with socialism or authoritariansim, but by and large capitalism is the most successful economic theory right now in the world. So in Mage, the Technocracy, as the world's secret masters, pretty much have to be pushing for capitalism (and probably the most excessive kind).

                  There may have been members of the Technocracy who flirted with communism, but seeing as how communism never really took off and even countries that called themselves communist (like China) have introduced lots of capitalist reforms, it's clear that communism is considered unsuccessful by the Technocracy.

                  IMO at the end of the day, the Technocracy had the chance to choose between communism and fascism and didn't pick communism. Further, there aren't any countries in the world that practice communism. And even most countries that claim to be communist or that practice socialism still have very strong capitalist tendencies. So since the Technocracy is the secret ruler behind much of the world, the organization must be far, far, more supportive of capitalism than communism, or else communism would have ended up being much more successful than it was.

                  To me, I believe that the idea of communism and collective ownership of the economy and government are something that the leaders of the Technocracy are firmly opposed to. They would no longer be able to secretly rule the world in such a situation and for the leaders in the Technocracy, they've grown so used to their power that they don't want to give it up.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                    For me, Mage is at its core a Punk game. You look at the world and find out that there's a secret society pulling the strings and then you do something about it. Many (most) of the problems in the world are caused by the Technocracy.
                    ...and to me, Mage fundamentally does not work if you make any side is Objectively Evil, Technocracy included.

                    Either:

                    a.) Everyone is Good
                    b.) Everyone is Evil
                    c.) Everyone is moral shades of grey to varying degrees

                    Otherwise if they were Ultimately Evil, how the hell are they able to do magick?

                    (nvm the antisemitic roots of any "secret masters of the world"-isms which, holy hell can we stop with that crap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...rld_domination )

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                      By the time World War II started, Russia's version of communism had little in common with Marx's version of communism. It was every bit as authoritarian and top down government running people's lives as Germany was. The idea that the Technocracy sided against Russia because it was a threat to them just doesn't make any sense to me.
                      The Technocracy as a whole didn't make much sense in the start, since they were basically just every single amalgam of spooky conspiracy theories. Like, let's think about it. What does the Technocracy represent, really? The status quo of the current world. Aka the modern world, aka aggressively secular, statist, and all the things associated with the modern western world.

                      Fascism of Germany denoted that there was an aggressive worldwide conspiracy that was aimed at german nationality and was trying to destroy them and their way of life. Which is ironic considering the existence of the New World Order. It also dictated that Germany wage a war on the rest of the world to take it over. Does this even make sense, considering that the Technocracy's greatest influence was in the European nations, as well as America?

                      So the aggressive internationalists claiming 'one world, one truth, one order' are somehow also nationalists? That a fascist germany that despises and expelled majority of academia also is ruled by the very people who embody academia? A fascist state like germany who states 'there are no facts' and views things like logical thinking something to be drummed out of its citizens is somehow backed by the Technocracy?

                      That the neo-paganistic occultism of the Nazis would somehow get support from the aggressively secular Technocracy, who would gladly purge anyone who happens to be worshipping EDEs or looks too much like the local Verbenae?

                      That's not even mentioning the lack of technology and how the Fascist Germany worked. The age of Enlightenment was something created and engineered by the Technocracy, and Fascism spat upon that, seeking to destroy 'modern depravity' and going back to old traditions. This is not the Technocracy. This callback to old traditions and the cult of personality around the Kaiser is something anti-thetical to the Technocracy, considering that they embody the faceless, monolithic system by which humans are crushed.

                      Nazi germany spent the entire war looking for a wunderwaffe, while fucking up their industrial and assembly line processes. This nation had to use horses to tow their planes across the airfields and spends resources on impractical superweapons that never work. The technocracy devotes its powers to creating more powerful weapons with an industrial assembly line process and keeps the special weapons in reserve, and tends to use force of numbers and infrastructure to crush its enemies.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                        IMO at the end of the day, the Technocracy had the chance to choose between communism and fascism and didn't pick communism. Further, there aren't any countries in the world that practice communism. And even most countries that claim to be communist or that practice socialism still have very strong capitalist tendencies. So since the Technocracy is the secret ruler behind much of the world, the organization must be far, far, more supportive of capitalism than communism, or else communism would have ended up being much more successful than it was.

                        To me, I believe that the idea of communism and collective ownership of the economy and government are something that the leaders of the Technocracy are firmly opposed to. They would no longer be able to secretly rule the world in such a situation and for the leaders in the Technocracy, they've grown so used to their power that they don't want to give it up.
                        That's a non-sequiter.

                        How does the Technocracy rule anyway? They are the system. What does 'collective ownership' mean? Mage powers are very versatile, and can fit in nearly anywhere easily. There's nothing stopping them from influencing communism from the shadows, just like they've always done. Yes, purportedly they created Democracy and toppled the previous kings. And, urm, they still have massive influence over the government. Just because they switch to 'collectively owned' doesn't mean that they'll lose power. It's just another system to them.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                          ...and to me, Mage fundamentally does not work if you make any side is Objectively Evil, Technocracy included.

                          Either:

                          a.) Everyone is Good
                          b.) Everyone is Evil
                          c.) Everyone is moral shades of grey to varying degrees

                          Otherwise if they were Ultimately Evil, how the hell are they able to do magick?

                          (nvm the antisemitic roots of any "secret masters of the world"-isms which, holy hell can we stop with that crap? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...rld_domination )

                          Where did you get the idea that I said anyone is objectively evil? All I'm saying is that the leadership of the Technocracy aren't saints. Most of them likely don't want "equality" with Sleepers. They believe they're superior to Sleepers and that it's better for everyone if they stay in control of the wheel. It's what's best for everyone. And let's be honest, there are plenty of politicians and other people in the world right now with the exact same attitude, that they know what's best for everyone. I wouldn't say those guys are objectively evil either, just completely wrong.

                          As to the latter, yeah there's some unfortunate similarities, but the Technocracy is supposed to be modeled after pop culture Iluminati, not Jewish conspiracy theories, but there is some unfortunate overlap. The Technocracy is (or at least was) a secret cabal that was manipulating society and governments from behind the scenes. We could reimagine the Technocracy as a group that isn't a secret society, that isn't manipulating society and that isn't pulling the strings of politicians, but then it quickly stops resembling the Technocracy.
                          Last edited by AnubisXy; 06-19-2021, 01:06 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                            The Technocracy as a whole didn't make much sense in the start, since they were basically just every single amalgam of spooky conspiracy theories.
                            Welcome to Inconsistent White Wolf Writing™ :P

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                            • #29
                              Like the way I see it...

                              Look let's be frank here. Mage and most modern fiction tramples on one of the few things we hold dearly. You know that when Technocrats say that on the whole they're smarter, cleverer, and more knowledgeable than the masses? They're right. Because you know, the ADEI, the Enhancements, and the Mind 1 that lets them lower mental roll difficulty.

                              How well can someone call for equality with the masses when any Mage with 1 dot in spheres can easily rise to the top of any Masses organization or culture?

                              edit: In fact, the entire Technocracy and Traditions thing can be seen as 'how the fuck do we deal with the power differential between us and the Masses?'.

                              The Technocracy's answer is to alter linear sorcery to the point dynamic and static magic are one and the same.
                              Last edited by Accelerator; 06-19-2021, 01:27 AM.

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                              • #30
                                I think it's moot, because tribalism corrupts all other systems, ending in feudalism. In Capitalism, the first winners of the darwinian race favor their friends, families, and golfing buddies, working to shut the door behind them with monopolies, nepotism, and crony-capitalism. This soon results in "Capitalism" being Feudalism in all but name. In Communism, the bureaucrats who distribute the wealth favor their families, friends, and golfing buddies, and need to spend ever more money on the military enforcing their power to distribute the wealth in this uneven way, meaning ever less goes to anyone but their small circle, eventually ending in feudalism in all but name.

                                The guys at the top of the Technocracy are just as tribalistic as any other group of humans. Low level Technocrats may be true believers in Capitalism or Communism or Social-Democracy, but the guys at the top know it doesn't matter. China or America, it's all just feudalism at the end of the day. And they are at the top of that feudalistic system.

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