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Materials about communism/socialism in Mage: The Ascension scenario

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    before more or less settling down on one in the present.
    I hardly think they settled down. I study economy and finance, and despite today we having a markedly connected economy, it is far more due to the advent and development of better systems of "economical translation", so to speak, than any sort of uniformity between economic systems. If anything, I think today we have far more diversity in this regard than we ever had during the Cold War.

    Do not polarized discourse (a feature from politics everywhere) fool you. The world is astoundingly diverse.


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    • #17
      There was IIRC an explicit thing about Iteration X and how even though they knew it was an experiment, certain amalgams put in more effort on the side they liked of the cold war.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
        Communism proper is an Anarchism-like theory, Marx proposed the complete dissolution of the state. His opinion isn't that the means of production should belong to a representative of the people, is that it should belong to no one and be free for use by the workers, so whatever you produces there is yours to do as you see fit. He did proposed that the transition should be by means of a state whose whole purpose is to take companies out of the hands of their owners, but that's it and then this state would shut down itself.
        This can work for a splinter of NWO-Syndicate team-up.

        Communism declares that it will be achieved by a fundamental transformation of human economic production and human social relations (aka the New Soviet Man) due to changes in the economic environment a person was raised in. The Soviet Union was attempting to bring about Communism, whereby all of humanity was selfless, hard work, capable of ignoring their baser instincts, and willing to die for the greater good. They were trying to accumulate the means of production (machinery and capital) until they hit post-scarcity.

        And just like how the Technocratic Union wishes to create a world where everyone wholeheartedly believes in science, logic, materialism, and technology; a world where mysticism is vulgar and nearly unthinkable, the Soviet Union too wished to create a world which wholeheartedly believed in its ideals, where mankind would sacrifice itself for the common good, to be selfless and embody the ideals of the soviet union/ communism.

        And just like how in the Technocracy's endgame where they will be rendered irrelevant due to there no longer being a difference between Sleepers and Mages due to them pushing technology so far, and everyone thinks, acts, and wholeheartedly trusts in the principles they espouse, the Soviet Union claimed that they would 'wither away' when Communism is finally achieved, where the entirety of all mankind has been altered to embody their own ideals.

        In other words, the words of the Soviet Union's own vanguard tend to match up with those of the Technocratic Union.

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        • #19
          It should be noted that the Hermetics also have a utopia, "Pymander." (Had they done a little more research they might have chosen "Adocentyn" or the "New Atlantis" for the name as both of those are real world ...i.e. written up by Hermetics proposing a utopia... Hermetic utopias.) The Hermetic utopias are based on a socialisation of knowledge. The goal is that everyone should have all the knowledge they can absorb and thus the power to shape their lives to their own desires. In many ways these Hermetic utopias are combinations of anarchist and socialist ideas.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
            And just like how in the Technocracy's endgame where they will be rendered irrelevant due to there no longer being a difference between Sleepers and Mages due to them pushing technology so far, and everyone thinks, acts, and wholeheartedly trusts in the principles they espouse...
            Ah, here's the problem Dataweaver was talking about. While some idealists may believe in this, this is the Craftmason endgame - the Technocratical hierarchy demonstrated to be very much against becoming irrelevant.

            But I think this can be conciliated.

            Not all hierarchies are classist, one very technocratical hierarchy that Marx never intended would go away it's the hierarchy of expertice. Marx objection against burgoise was cemented in the idea that their claim to production was every bit as artificial as that of nobles: a "title" enforced by law, rather than any material -scientifical - fact. The Soviets had the ideal that the working class, propperly educated and given the means, was able to do anything - but that's eons from discarding science or the importance of the expertice and knowledge to make an informed decision. They had whole cities build for scientists, after all.

            The authority of Technocrats within such socialism could be not that of a boss that "owns" your time, but more akin to what Foucault says about the authority of medics (they're not your boss, but they can order you to get nacked and you likely will). The working class having the "means of production" doesn't need to mean that they will be undistinguishable from mages. It could simply mean that they will have lots of wonders and the public education would help them to become technocrats if they have the genius. But the expert decisions are still going to be taken by the experts of the field - aka, technocrats.

            Or maybe the experiment was just intended to fail, as to make such outcome Vulgar in the eyes of the Consensus
            Last edited by Aleph; 09-02-2021, 08:21 AM.

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            • #21
              One strong possibility is always that the views aren't the same within the Technocracy. It is still an enormous organizations, and groups of people within may have distinct visions of the future. It isn't that they'll necessarily go against the whole, I imagine some members defending such ideas as Anarchism and Communism with the intention of running experiments and eventually trying to convince their superiors with data. But some can be effectively smaller conspiracies trying to further their own, "traitorous" goals.

              ​And Astromancer, it isn't just the Hermetics, every Tradition have a form of utopia where everyone achieves this state of enlightenment where there is little if any distinction between Sleepers and Awakened. That's what they call THE Ascension, in contrast with a personal Ascension.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                One strong possibility is always that the views aren't the same within the Technocracy. It is still an enormous organizations, and groups of people within may have distinct visions of the future. It isn't that they'll necessarily go against the whole, I imagine some members defending such ideas as Anarchism and Communism with the intention of running experiments and eventually trying to convince their superiors with data. But some can be effectively smaller conspiracies trying to further their own, "traitorous" goals.

                ​And Astromancer, it isn't just the Hermetics, every Tradition have a form of utopia where everyone achieves this state of enlightenment where there is little if any distinction between Sleepers and Awakened. That's what they call THE Ascension, in contrast with a personal Ascension.
                And here I was thinking that the Traditions simply wanted to let Sleepers sink or swim. Give them a choice, as it were.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                  Ah, here's the problem Dataweaver was talking about. While some idealists may believe in this, this is the Craftmason endgame - the Technocratical hierarchy demonstrated to be very much against becoming irrelevant.

                  But I think this can be conciliated.

                  Not all hierarchies are classist, one very technocratical hierarchy that Marx never intended would go away it's the hierarchy of expertice. Marx objection against burgoise was cemented in the idea that their claim to production was every bit as artificial as that of nobles: a "title" enforced by law, rather than any material -scientifical - fact. The Soviets had the ideal that the working class, propperly educated and given the means, was able to do anything - but that's eons from discarding science or the importance of the expertice and knowledge to make an informed decision. They had whole cities build for scientists, after all.

                  The authority of Technocrats within such socialism could be not that of a boss that "owns" your time, but more akin to what Foucault says about the authority of medics (they're not your boss, but they can order you to get nacked and you likely will). The working class having the "means of production" doesn't need to mean that they will be undistinguishable from mages. It could simply mean that they will have lots of wonders and the public education would help them to become technocrats if they have the genius. But the expert decisions are still going to be taken by the experts of the field - aka, technocrats.

                  Or maybe the experiment was just intended to fail, as to make such outcome Vulgar in the eyes of the Consensus
                  That's a pretty neat conciliation.

                  It's the Technocracy which promotes the 'listen to the experts'. And the mass scale education system. And the entire thing about the 'no mysticism' thing. And anarchist theory doesn't deny the influence of charismatic and influential figures, just decries all unjustified hierarchies. And when you have members of the NWO who have Mind 5, the term 'charismatic' is an understatement. In the end the NWO would still have controls. Just more on the lines of 'cultural evolving memeplex that keeps the sleepers to do what we want, even without a police or media control'.

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                  • #24
                    Well, someone has to. Without such controls, the masses would do whatever they want. Unregulated trade! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!


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                    • #25
                      I think something that fucks with us is that in our world, the words 'all men are equal' are brave, enlightening words that pave the way for equality and democracy.

                      In the world of darkness, the ideals behind 'all men are equal' is wacky nonsense invented by the Technocratic Union to make all unsanctioned usages of posthuman capability in public to be vulgar and hit their opponents with paradox.

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                      • #26
                        There’s no indication that moral/social statements are less meaningful in WoD than our world. More likely to be abused maybe, but not less valid.


                        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                          There’s no indication that moral/social statements are less meaningful in WoD than our world. More likely to be abused maybe, but not less valid.
                          I view the moral statement of 'all men are equal' to be slightly weakened by the fact that some men have vastly more capable than others, going in with the consideration that the statement 'all men are equal' to be based upon the fact that in the real world divine right of kings or 'the master race' does not exist.

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                          • #28
                            Conversely, if you don't live by that creed, even if it's isn't true, you end up with an arrogant intelligencia who are prone to think that they know more than they actually do. This is one of the technocracies primary failings: while there's some truth to the idea that they're better informed than sleepers are, they tend to overestimate the significance of that. Even in the real world, there's a tendency for academics put together models of human behavior that aren't as accurate as they think they are, and then to try to force their theories into practical application, frequently with disastrous results.

                            In the world of darkness, this gets compounded by the ability of Mind to actually change human behavior. So if the masses aren't behaving the way the Technocracy's theories say they should, there's the added temptation to force them to fit the theory, instead of adjusting the theory to fit their behavior.


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                            • #29
                              But that is missing the statement meaning.

                              It isn't about all people being equally capable, but all people being equally entitled to duties, rights and social positions.

                              There are plenty of objective, demonstrable ways to show that not everyone is equally capable even IRL, but we remain equals because that's not the point.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                                Conversely, if you don't live by that creed, even if it's isn't true, you end up with an arrogant intelligencia who are prone to think that they know more than they actually do. This is one of the technocracies primary failings: while there's some truth to the idea that they're better informed than sleepers are, they tend to overestimate the significance of that. Even in the real world, there's a tendency for academics put together models of human behavior that aren't as accurate as they think they are, and then to try to force their theories into practical application, frequently with disastrous results.

                                In the world of darkness, this gets compounded by the ability of Mind to actually change human behavior. So if the masses aren't behaving the way the Technocracy's theories say they should, there's the added temptation to force them to fit the theory, instead of adjusting the theory to fit their behavior.
                                How, precisely, does this work?

                                Like, let's say the Consensus is that the divine right of kings is a-ok. The great chain of being, worshipping god, all that jazz. And you know what? Because it's the consensus, its just as natural as say, democracy is or internal combustion engines are for our own modern time. And then the Technocracy comes around and begins preaching about the enlightenment and republics and democracy. And so, the consensus begins to quake. People begin disobeying the king. The legitimatcy of kingship becomes shaky. Commands and rotes that should quell rebellion start creating paradox.

                                .... Did the Technocracy adjus the theory to fit their behaviour, or did they force humans to fit the theory? Are humans 'naturally' pre disposed to obeying their social superiors, until the technocracy came along.

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