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  • #16
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    Tying a defensive Time trigger against mental intrusions to an always active Prime scan? Well, first there's a whole issue of how your mage knows how to key this to detecting "vampire" magic,
    Not vampire magick, but any kind of magick that affects the brain. This way it could trigger even if other discipline is activated (Dementation, etc) or even a Mind mage trying to read/control the mind.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    but in the long run, it's still basically only good for one defense. Targeting the vampire with your reaction-defense without Correspondence is going to be limiting as well (which is why we keep talking about dulling your own senses instead).
    Not one defense, a very broad defense. Any supernatural effect on the brain, that covers pretty much everything. The targeting would be done via the scan. Prime would scan the source of the Ressonance.


    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    Which isn't going to matter to some powers... Summoning and Majesty don't require the vampire to do anything but think about turning them on. Majesty is less effective if you cut a vampire off from their senses (though again, even trying that could require a WP roll anyway), but the defensive effect that makes people have to roll to act against the Majesty user? That's just a supernatural aura that's going to still be there.
    Indeed. That's the big issue here. I thought Awe also didn't require anything but it does requires a social roll and a blood point. So, does that means that speech or some kind of interaction is needed?

    The problem lies in Summon and Majesty, as you said. Summon does nothing more than make you go to the vampire, and that's not something I would worry, especially when you can stop that by spending WP. My worry is to be influenced/controled. Also, Summon does seems to require speech, sonce it is said that the vampire has to call the target. And you can't call someone if you can't speak.

    Now, the big issue here is Majesty. And maybe you're right, there is nothing that can be done to avoid it being activated other than putting a damage spell in the trigger to kill or knock out the vampire (knockout means incapacitated with bashing dmg, right? Can't remember the rules). However this is not what I'm looking for. I would rather be aware that the power is active and choose to knockout the vampire if I decide to in the moment, not in an automatic trigger.

    There would be no need for the WP roll, since it's an automatic triggered effect, and not a conscious one. The mage moght not even remember that this trigger exist and suddenly the vampire gets his senses shut due to the activation.
    I see this as a stalemate. The mage is indeed afected by Majesty, but the vampire can't do shit while the power is active. The same situation would happen against a Mind mage that tries to mess with the char mind. The trigger would fire and the mind mage suddenly gets blind and deaf. To be fair, in this case a different trigger would be better, one with Life to knockout the mind mage, since Mind can mess way more than Presence.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    I know you seem to hate this...
    (...)
    Even in Mage's very flexible magic system.
    Hahaha I know that. To be fair I find it fun to think things like that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
      Not vampire magick, but any kind of magick that affects the brain. This way it could trigger even if other discipline is activated (Dementation, etc) or even a Mind mage trying to read/control the mind.
      The number of ways this could go horrible wrong seem obvious...

      Not one defense, a very broad defense. Any supernatural effect on the brain, that covers pretty much everything. The targeting would be done via the scan. Prime would scan the source of the Ressonance.
      How? If you get hit with Summoning from miles away, Prime can't sense the source of what's causing the magic, it can just sense that magic is happening and maybe (not automatically) get an idea of the Resonance (does your character have Occult 5 with a specialty in vampires to have thorough studied their Resonances to be able to pick them up specifically anyway?).

      What happens if the target is beyond your immediate senses since you don't have Correspondence? What happens if you need Matter (frequently to deal with vampires) or Spirit (shifters) or Mind (Fae) to lock on the effect?

      And even after all that, a hung effect is still one effect. A hung Forces effect that dampens all the sensory stimuli around a target triggers by an always on Prime self-scan to sense in coming mental magic still only goes off once before you need to recast it. You mute on vampire, and his vampire buddy then Dominates you... now what?

      My worry is to be influenced/controled.
      Summon is still control (and it's spend a WP and make a roll each time to resist it for a scene, for something that can last multiple scenes).

      Also, Summon does seems to require speech, sonce it is said that the vampire has to call the target. And you can't call someone if you can't speak.
      It doesn't require speech. Even if it did in some fashion, since the target doesn't need to physically hear it, as long as the vampire says it, the Forces effect muting it wouldn't matter anymore than being 5,000 miles apart would matter.

      However this is not what I'm looking for. I would rather be aware that the power is active and choose to knockout the vampire if I decide to in the moment, not in an automatic trigger.

      There would be no need for the WP roll, since it's an automatic triggered effect, and not a conscious one.
      Clarification is needed.

      The mage is indeed afected by Majesty, but the vampire can't do shit while the power is active.
      Majesty is already something of a stalemate power by its nature. That said, keep in mind that everyone else in the scene is impacted by Majesty too... so a lot of people that might have been neutral parties might now attack your mage for disrespecting the Majesty user.

      Of course, vampires tend not to have just one Discipline to toss around.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

        The number of ways this could go horrible wrong seem obvious...
        Why is that? If the mage wants the trigger to not activate for some specific ally, he can just add this condition with Life

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        How? If you get hit with Summoning from miles away, Prime can't sense the source of what's causing the magic, it can just sense that magic is happening and maybe (not automatically) get an idea of the Resonance (does your character have Occult 5 with a specialty in vampires to have thorough studied their Resonances to be able to pick them up specifically anyway?).
        I think you are being unnecessarily hard on this one 5 in a trait means you are the absolute best on it. It would mean that you know all there is to know about the subject.
        If you ever see a vampire using a discipline and scan it with Prime you already got the feeling of how it is. Either that or you can specifically study about kinds of ressonance and you're good to go.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        What happens if the target is beyond your immediate senses since you don't have Correspondence? What happens if you need Matter (frequently to deal with vampires) or Spirit (shifters) or Mind (Fae) to lock on the effect?
        I'll grant that without Correspondence the effect shouldn't go miles away to reach the vampire, so probably nothing happens and the Summon would work. But Summon is not my main worry.
        About the Matter/Spirit thing, as I said, it is a Forces effect, not a direct pattern effect, so no need for any of those spheres. No need to lock, if the vampire leaves the place, Presence wears off. Also, he won't be able to leave being all deaf, blind, mute.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        And even after all that, a hung effect is still one effect. A hung Forces effect that dampens all the sensory stimuli around a target triggers by an always on Prime self-scan to sense in coming mental magic still only goes off once before you need to recast it. You mute on vampire, and his vampire buddy then Dominates you... now what?
        A trigger effect is a spell that is trapped in time waiting for a certain condition to happen. There is no need for an always running effect, the Time 4 trigger does that work.

        You can also have more than one trigger. And once the first trigger activates the mage's gonna be very alert. Also, other people/vampire wouldn't know what the hell happened with the Presence vampire. He just suddenly lies there silent and still. What happens next depends completely on how it happens, and that's why I would like a low profile effect (no explosions, etc.).


        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Summon is still control (and it's spend a WP and make a roll each time to resist it for a scene, for something that can last multiple scenes).
        Yes but is limited to making the target go to the vampire. It's nothing more than an annoyance. The best way to deal with it would be to go with it and blast the vampire with a well made plan.
        My worry is to have the actions influenced by the vampire, or letting him have the upper hand in a diplomatic situation. Lvl 1, 3 and 5 can do that. And lvl 5 is the only one that is tough to deal.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Clarification is needed.
        About the knockout or the WP?

        The knockout: I thought about another option to deal with it. A Forces attack to knockout the vampire, thus making every possible power to stop. I don't remember the rules for knockingout someone (if it were a mortal Life could do that easily) but I believe to knockout a vampire or any night-folk you have to deal enough bashing damage to make him go incapacitated. That's an extreme measure, that I'd rather not put in a trigger, that would be activated without my mage's consense act.

        About the Time 4 trigger: once you cast the spell and the Time 4 hang, your spell is trapped and will be released when the defined trigger happens, the exact moment it happens. So, if a vampire activates Majesty, as soon as the effect reaches the mage's brain, the trigger is activated and the effect shot like a gun. There is no conscious act from the mage to do that at this time. Ot would happen even before the mage could understand what is happening, so there is no need for the mage to roll or spend any WP because he is about to harm the vampire.

        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Majesty is already something of a stalemate power by its nature. That said, keep in mind that everyone else in the scene is impacted by Majesty too... so a lot of people that might have been neutral parties might now attack your mage for disrespecting the Majesty user.

        Of course, vampires tend not to have just one Discipline to toss around.
        It isn't a stalemate. Majesty makes everyone pretty much the vampire's bitch. You will worship him and do everything he tells you. By making him unable to see, hear and speak, at least he won't be able to make any use of the power.
        And again, no one knows what happened to the vampire, nor that the effect came from the mage. Mortals will think the vampire is having a stroke, not feeling good or something of the kind. Vampires friends of him would have no clue, probably think some supernatural enemy is acting and that's it.

        EDIT: There are also other options to stalemate the vampire, besides removing senses: knockingout (a bit harsh) or paralysis. Forces can completely paralyzes the vampire, thus making him unable to lock gaze, speak commands and activate most of his disciplines.
        Last edited by Lord Revan; 01-06-2022, 08:08 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
          As I house-rule, if a player has the Spheres to detect something built into the effect they are casting, they can specify that thing as the target or thing defended against.

          If the spell is "Filter any Vampires",
          "Filter" is Life 2, Forces 3.
          "Vampires" is Life 1, Forces 1 (a nonliving person whose heat signature is different from any other).
          I don't even think that's a house-rule, but I should point out that Vampires are not governed by Life, ever. They're in the purview of Matter and Entropy, although I'd say any of the two would work instead of both in conjunction for this detection (you either have a self-propelled corpse with complex motion or a moving Entropic Anomaly, either way you just add a single Sphere at 1 to the effect).

          But again, while this works well enough for Dominate, I'm not so sure about Presence. Even the powers that do include Appearance may not be interpreted as unaffected by this trick by the ST due to their descriptions, and even the powers that do may be considered blocked. The problem is that you're not dealing with pure Mage metaphysics, but with how the ST reads Vampire metaphysics and applies it to the crossover.

          A break-down here, by the V20 core, but at least pre-V5 this is a fairly consistent power set:
          • Awe: it is a Charisma-based roll and the affected people become specifically more prone to side with the vampire's opinion/side, in a discussion for example. I'd personally say it isn't protected by this effect. It lasts the night.
          • Dread Gaze: it's also a Charisma-based roll and, despite the name, it has no description of what exactly in the Vampire is so unsettling. I would let it protect against a Kindred trying to impress to subtle cues or a terrifying stare, but not against one using overt movements unless you also block your perception of those (which is kind of counterproductive as a protection measure).
          • Entrancement: seriously I think this is far more worrisome than Summon or Majesty, but this one is an Appearance roll and is directed to a single individual, so I could personally let this effect work on it.
          • Summon: it doesn't demand any contact whatsoever, so this spell wouldn't do shit. Yet, I must point out that Summon does not compel your actions in any way beyond the haste with which you should move and gives you a perfect notion of the Vampire's location during the rest of the night or until you reach the Vampire. It's more probable that an allied Vampire agrees with you to Summon if the need arises than an enemy Vampire deciding out of the blue to give you their precise location almost free of charge.
          • Majesty: there is no roll and, as in Dread Gaze, there's nothing specific in the Vampire that sources the effect. But the bigger problem isn't that, it is the likelihood that you'll be suddenly surrounded by people under its effects. Personally shaking it off is itself too easy.

          Seriously, resisting Presence is, for most of those powers, a WP point a scene. It isn't hard. It isn't hard at all. The value of this Discipline relies much more on swaying crowds than trying to overtake a single target. It's control over your personal decisions is also very limited. It is useful for social gatherings and some other situations, but is almost useless against determined resistance even from a mortal.

          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
          It can be extremely dangerous to make a vampire invisible to you. I would rather just cut all the vampire senses and speech, this way he won't be able to lock eyes nor give commands. Dominate have several ways to be avoided.
          Making a Vampire blind and deaf is the most overtly hostile response possible. As a combat action it is good regardless of Dominate or Presence, as a defense against those it is the best way to make sure you won an enemy for the rest of your life.

          You're dealing with subtle social powers here. You can just as easily stop them by punching the user in the face, but they'll frequently be used in situations where escalation is a bad strategic option, otherwise the Vampire would have better options. If you want to just go full berserker with any Vampire that uses a Discipline on you, you can again go for a simpler spell and, instead of messing with perception, just put the Vampire on fire.

          And I'm not saying for you to blotch the vampire, I'm saying for you to blotch the Vampire's eyes. Basically, as if they were using sunglasses or something. As long as you can't see the vampire's eyes, Dominate won't work by its own rules. You can freely see the rest of the Vampire, including their face.

          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
          Not one defense, a very broad defense. Any supernatural effect on the brain, that covers pretty much everything. The targeting would be done via the scan. Prime would scan the source of the Ressonance.
          Without Correspondence you're still limited to scan with your own eyes or something similar. You can't just have the spell itself pinpoint a target without it. The Prime effect may identify magic and trail, but you would have to follow the trail to the source yourself.

          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
          Also, Summon does seems to require speech, sonce it is said that the vampire has to call the target. And you can't call someone if you can't speak.
          Not a literal verbal call, it is a mind call. It works regardless of speech. Not only that, the effect won't reach you before it was done, so even with Correspondence it would be useless as you're already called by that time.

          And, again, you can't affect the source of Summon without Correspondence, not with Prime alone.

          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
          Now, the big issue here is Majesty. And maybe you're right, there is nothing that can be done to avoid it being activated other than putting a damage spell in the trigger to kill or knock out the vampire (knockout means incapacitated with bashing dmg, right? Can't remember the rules).
          Majesty will make you and everyone around immediately interested on helping the vampire. So even if you stop the vampire from issuing any form of command, you're already under effect and wanting to help them to recover.

          Also, be aware that many Presence users also either personally have or are with someone who have Auspex. Those will definitely be able to identify the source of the magical attack, and they don't need to prepare anything beforehand to do so.


          #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
          #AutismPride
          She/her pronouns

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          • #20
            For presence, you could do something like Heart of Stone from name of the wind or prozium from Equilibrium. You dampen emotions in general rather than trying to specifically fight off the influence.

            You use life to set your body to secrete hormones and chemicals at the exact rate you want/need and no more or less.

            Or a life/prime effect to evaporate levels of emotionally mind altering chemicals beyond a certain limit into quintessence. Probably not enough to actually gain you any quint. But it would be enough to keep you even keeled.

            Your mage would need to know enough about their own internal chemistry to figure out how to not kill themselves though.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              I don't even think that's a house-rule, but I should point out that Vampires are not governed by Life, ever. They're in the purview of Matter and Entropy, although I'd say any of the two would work instead of both in conjunction for this detection (you either have a self-propelled corpse with complex motion or a moving Entropic Anomaly, either way you just add a single Sphere at 1 to the effect).
              Affecting a vampire pattern directly with magick requires a combination of Life+Matter. However, the effect he posted does not directly affect the vampire’s pattern, it only scans for a undead body. Both Life or Forces separately could do that. Life can do that just by identifying that the body is not alive. Forces can see that by identifying avery cold body. So, no need for Matter if you want just to identify a vampire.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              • Awe: it is a Charisma-based roll and the affected people become specifically more prone to side with the vampire's opinion/side, in a discussion for example. I'd personally say it isn't protected by this effect. It lasts the night.
              • Dread Gaze: it's also a Charisma-based roll and, despite the name, it has no description of what exactly in the Vampire is so unsettling. I would let it protect against a Kindred trying to impress to subtle cues or a terrifying stare, but not against one using overt movements unless you also block your perception of those (which is kind of counterproductive as a protection measure).
              • Entrancement: seriously I think this is far more worrisome than Summon or Majesty, but this one is an Appearance roll and is directed to a single individual, so I could personally let this effect work on it.
              • Summon: it doesn't demand any contact whatsoever, so this spell wouldn't do shit. Yet, I must point out that Summon does not compel your actions in any way beyond the haste with which you should move and gives you a perfect notion of the Vampire's location during the rest of the night or until you reach the Vampire. It's more probable that an allied Vampire agrees with you to Summon if the need arises than an enemy Vampire deciding out of the blue to give you their precise location almost free of charge.
              • Majesty: there is no roll and, as in Dread Gaze, there's nothing specific in the Vampire that sources the effect. But the bigger problem isn't that, it is the likelihood that you'll be suddenly surrounded by people under its effects. Personally shaking it off is itself too easy.
              Awe has a scene duration, not night. Why would you say it isn’t protected? The power requires a social roll, which implies that the vampire has to behave in a certain way to get the attention and fans he wants. He probably talks smoothly, or use a soothing voice, or maybe just stands there in a imponent stance. All of that would be filtered. Also, all of that would be avoided if the solution was to severe senses or paralyzing the vampire.
              For Dread Gaze, it is the same concept. It is a visual/auditory power (all the examples in V20 involve some action) and the power name itself says it “Gaze”. It is clear that the vampire has to give a scary image or sound for the power to work. In this case, all options would stop this effect: the filter, the depriving senses and the paralyzing.
              Entrance fall in the same concept as the above.
              I agree with you about Summon. Neither option would work and it would be necessary to have Correspondence, unless the vampire summons from across the room, which makes no sense. Summon is no issue at all, since it does not “control” the target like the other levels.
              Majesty can be “stopped” by severing senses or paralyzing in a stalemate way. Or, maybe if the filter completely changes the vampire voice for a robotic monotone one and the vampire sight for a stick figure or a cartoon or something completely different and unnapealing one for the mage, wouldn’t you think that this kinda dismiss the effect? I mean, if someone transforms (either by illusion or real transformation) the vampire into an ugly goat, would the Presence effect still work?
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Seriously, resisting Presence is, for most of those powers, a WP point a scene. It isn't hard. It isn't hard at all. The value of this Discipline relies much more on swaying crowds than trying to overtake a single target. It's control over your personal decisions is also very limited. It is useful for social gatherings and some other situations, but is almost useless against determined resistance even from a mortal.
              That’s a good point. But since I am planning to avoid mind control in general, specially Dominate, why not also try Presence? It is good to know that if everything fails, you can still spend a WP and avoid it for the scene. Oh, and don’t forget the WP roll (diff. 8) too. Also, M20 says that mages can resist psychihc attacks with WP (dff. 6), would that also apply to vampiric disciplines, thus allowing an additional roll?

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Making a Vampire blind and deaf is the most overtly hostile response possible. As a combat action it is good regardless of Dominate or Presence, as a defense against those it is the best way to make sure you won an enemy for the rest of your life.

              You're dealing with subtle social powers here. You can just as easily stop them by punching the user in the face, but they'll frequently be used in situations where escalation is a bad strategic option, otherwise the Vampire would have better options. If you want to just go full berserker with any Vampire that uses a Discipline on you, you can again go for a simpler spell and, instead of messing with perception, just put the Vampire on fire.
              Depriving the vampire’s senses is hostile, but low profile. Initially, no one would know what happened nor who (or what) did that. It can be done anywhere without risk (imagine lighting a vampire on fire in a gas station) and in a coincident way. Imagine a diplomatic situation in a meeting involving both vampire and sleepers. A punch in the face or setting on fire would cause havoc. Someone suddenly getting messing internally could just be a stroke or something. The same applies for paralyzing. And is even better with the filter option that HorizonParty2021 posted, which leaves no trail at all.
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              And I'm not saying for you to blotch the vampire, I'm saying for you to blotch the Vampire's eyes. Basically, as if they were using sunglasses or something. As long as you can't see the vampire's eyes, Dominate won't work by its own rules. You can freely see the rest of the Vampire, including their face.
              Sunglasses only increase the difficulty. Even removing your own eyes only increases difficulty. As long as the vampire can look at you eye sockets he can Dominate, according to V20.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Without Correspondence you're still limited to scan with your own eyes or something similar. You can't just have the spell itself pinpoint a target without it. The Prime effect may identify magic and trail, but you would have to follow the trail to the source yourself.
              You can use spheres to help in the effect. That’s how locking works, to get someone invisible you only need Forces 2. You add Life so the spell can follow the pattern. Life is not needed for invisibility, it’s there just to help. The same with the scanning, Prime can scan the source of the power (as long as the source is inside sensorial range) and Forces will affect it. Correspondence is needed when you want the effect to have a distance bigger than your senses.
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Majesty will make you and everyone around immediately interested on helping the vampire. So even if you stop the vampire from issuing any form of command, you're already under effect and wanting to help them to recover.
              Indeed. That’s one major flaw that I was trying to figure out. I’m not sure if you can make an effect undismissable. If so, the mage could condition the end of the effect with the end of the mind control and thus only stopping when the vampire drops the power. This way, even if the mage wants to help, he can’t.
              Or, the last option would be to have the trigger to knockout the vampire instead of severing sense/paralyzing/filtering. This would stop everything befor it even begins. And can be done in a “low-profileish” way with Forces (invisible sudden impact in the head). It would require a ritual with lots of successes to get the vampire to incapacitated, even more if is bashing. I don’t know if there is any other way to knockout. I know dealing more damage than stamina stats in one turn makes them dazed, but only for the next turn.
              Knocking out is too harsh, but I can’t think in anything to completely stop the power.
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Also, be aware that many Presence users also either personally have or are with someone who have Auspex. Those will definitely be able to identify the source of the magical attack, and they don't need to prepare anything beforehand to do so.
              The only power from Auspex that can help is the aura reading, that can be used in people. The auspex user would see “myriad sparkles” in the mage aura (and every other mage around) and maybe in the vampire aura as well, indicating that a spell is affecting him. It doesn’t give trails, nor exact Ressonances like Prime does.

              To summarize the ideas until now we have 4 options:
              • Filtering the mage input from the vampire by completely changing his voice to a GPS like one and his appearance to a stick figure: I’m not sure this would stop Dominate since the vampire would still be able to see the mage’s eyes. Would probably stop Presence (maybe even Majesty). Wouldn’t stop Mind magick nor mind reading effects like Auspex.
              • Severing the vampire senses/paralyzing: would stop Dominate. Would stop Presence lvl 1,2 and 3. Wouldn’tstop Mind magick. Wouldn’t stop mind reading and Auspex.
              • knocking out with heavy Forces hit on the head: Stops everything, including Dominate, Presence, Mind Magick, auspex and mind reading. The vampire/mage just goes to sleep. It’s easier to be done against a Mind mage (Life effect instead of dmg) than vampire. Would require a ritual with 5 successes (12 dmg with Forces, which means even if a stamina 5 target soaks, there is still 7 dmg to incapacitate) to drop a vampire.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                You can use spheres to help in the effect. That’s how locking works, to get someone invisible you only need Forces 2. You add Life so the spell can follow the pattern. Life is not needed for invisibility, it’s there just to help. The same with the scanning, Prime can scan the source of the power (as long as the source is inside sensorial range) and Forces will affect it. Correspondence is needed when you want the effect to have a distance bigger than your senses.
                I think a case could be made that, since you're casting the effect beforehand (defining duration, targets, rolling Arete, etc...all beforehand)...then the target it's outside the range of your senses. The spell it's being casted over a hipotetical Mind/Dominate/etc.. user that isn't there (and may not even exist - a magic that affects your mind may be a trigger that happens when someone enters in a room, like a magical trap, for instance).

                It wouldn't be outlandish to say that for such a target one needs Correspondence. Note that most, if not all, examples of triggered effects are on a range of "self" (like, exploding over your death) or already use Correspondence (Wards with triggered effects).
                Last edited by Aleph; 01-07-2022, 12:32 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                  For presence, you could do something like Heart of Stone from name of the wind or prozium from Equilibrium. You dampen emotions in general rather than trying to specifically fight off the influence.

                  You use life to set your body to secrete hormones and chemicals at the exact rate you want/need and no more or less.

                  Or a life/prime effect to evaporate levels of emotionally mind altering chemicals beyond a certain limit into quintessence. Probably not enough to actually gain you any quint. But it would be enough to keep you even keeled.

                  Your mage would need to know enough about their own internal chemistry to figure out how to not kill themselves though.
                  That's a good solution, since Presence makes very clear that it is a emotion discipline. I don't know how thst would be ruled, if complete immunity is possible.

                  Also, this would not stop Dominate, Mind magick nor any other form of mind intrusion. Other defenses should be used in conjunction

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                    I think a case could be made that, since you're casting the effect beforehand (defining duration, targets, rolling Arete, etc...all beforehand)...then the target it's outside the range of your senses. The spell it's being casted over a hipotetical Mind/Dominate/etc.. user that isn't there (and may not even exist - a magic that affects your mind may be a trigger that happens when someone enters in a room, like a magical trap, for instance).

                    It wouldn't be outlandish to say that for such a target one needs Correspondence. Note that most, if not all, examples of triggered effects are on a range of "self" (like, exploding over your death) or already use Correspondence (Wards with triggered effects).
                    A case could also be made that the target could be defined in the moment of the trigger activation. Afterall, Time 4 is trapping the spell in time snd releasing with some conditions.
                    While what you said makes sense, it would severily nerf Time 4, since only personal spells would be eligible for that, or require a Correspondence rating of the higher sphere used. Since most personal effects can be made with always running effects, this would make Time 4 even more obsolete.

                    With this logic, a mage couldn't hang a simple fireball.

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                    • #25
                      Yeah, I think you're rigth. While all the parameters need to be defined before the spell it's cast, one could argue that not all spells need to define a specific target.

                      For instance: to summon a ball of fire that you control with your mind. Concentration spells like that one don't require to define a specific target. Also Correspondence can find generic stuff as long as you provide the Spheres that define it's "type" .

                      I think a case could be made that a spell can be trusted to chose it's targets on it's own once released. Like as if one summoned a homing missile that seeks heat. You're not really ommiting to define a target 'til it's convinient, you just define what's a valid target (and how many) for whatever it is that breaks reality.

                      Personaly, I think that spells that require a specific target that's not present and can't be defined at the moment are a bit of an outlier for triggers. I would definitely allow it because I like the concept - it's very abstract, I like that - but I don't see triggers being used that way anywhere in the books. They're mostly used for self buffs, spells to be casted on death, and such. But, still, I do think that a case could be made.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 01-07-2022, 09:09 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Things like a hung fireball are what aimed spells are for: you get to pick the target by actively throwing the pre-made fireball at someone. But that means it's an instant action, on your turn, not something you can do reflexively.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                          For presence, you could do something like Heart of Stone from name of the wind or prozium from Equilibrium. You dampen emotions in general rather than trying to specifically fight off the influence.

                          You use life to set your body to secrete hormones and chemicals at the exact rate you want/need and no more or less.

                          Or a life/prime effect to evaporate levels of emotionally mind altering chemicals beyond a certain limit into quintessence. Probably not enough to actually gain you any quint. But it would be enough to keep you even keeled.

                          Your mage would need to know enough about their own internal chemistry to figure out how to not kill themselves though.
                          That may work, but the idea that Presence shows up as actual changes in neurotransmitters is a bold assumption. Given the Discipline can intensify your emotions beyond your brains physical limits, affect people with neurological conditions that dampen emotion already, and even other Vampires, whose emotions do not come from brain activity at all, I'd say it probably wouldn't work.

                          As an ST I could make a case for generally dampening emotions having a chance, at the cost of dealing with whatever consequences might come from dampening your emotions with Life without Mind. I wouldn't recommend that as a lifestyle, but on a pinch beggars can't be chosers.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          However, the effect he posted does not directly affect the vampire’s pattern, it only scans for a undead body. Both Life or Forces separately could do that. Life can do that just by identifying that the body is not alive. Forces can see that by identifying avery cold body. So, no need for Matter if you want just to identify a vampire.
                          Actually not.

                          First, a dead body (the thing that comprises an undead) is under Matter, not Life. Period. You can scan a body with Life to see if there's a Life Pattern, but you can't pre-cast Life to detect a non-Life Pattern.

                          Second, this is the problem with setting detection effects beforehand. At a live casting you are right. Life would promptly show that this body has no Life, Forces would show that this body has no personal heat. But precasting the effect must be able to first find out there is a body, as you're not providing it live. Hence you necessarily needs Matter to cast this effect as you defined it, so it detects an object with human form that can then be scanned for heat or Life.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Awe has a scene duration, not night. Why would you say it isn’t protected?
                          I stand corrected, which makes it even less relevant to create such a protection.

                          And one thing I'm seeing you mixing here strongly is the distinction between the power being active and the vampire getting something out of it. Again, Presence isn't Dominate. Awe does not affect any particular thing the vampire do or says, or their likeness. It affects how you weight their opinion.

                          You don't need to know the vampire, recognize them, see them or necessarily hear them. If the vampire uses Awe and gives you a letter while you're under the effect, you be affected by the written words that express the vampire's opinon. That's what is written in the actual effect of the power. The roll is an activation roll, not an action itself, vampires don't rely on instruments or instrument-like actions to use their powers.

                          Likewise, filtering wouldn't change that you know where those opinions are coming from. You can still decide to clear your mind with the WP point and roll, but otherwise the power is not relying on any particular sensory cue, it is relying on itself, on the very presence of the vampire and you being able to acknowledge that presence.

                          Keep in mind that Presence can be used under heavy clothes, a burca, and is just as accessible to a Nosferatu as it is to anyone else who don't have it as in-clan (and a lot of vampires have out-of-clans). It does not rely on appearance or whatever.

                          Striking down the Vampire wouldn't end the power, either, it doesn't requires the Vampire to stay conscious, although they probably have little opinion to give from there.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          For Dread Gaze, it is the same concept. It is a visual/auditory power (all the examples in V20 involve some action) and the power name itself says it “Gaze”. It is clear that the vampire has to give a scary image or sound for the power to work.
                          I addressed those, it seems you didn't read. I mostly agree, except that a scary image or sound can be a threat or action, something that you can't blur without missing crucial information. If the vampire gives you a terrible stare, sure, it works. If they instead yell that they'll kill you and visibly strike something with a punch, then it may deliver and you suffer full effect.

                          Granted, the first option is far more likely, so here I agree with the filter.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Majesty can be “stopped” by severing senses or paralyzing in a stalemate way. Or, maybe if the filter completely changes the vampire voice for a robotic monotone one and the vampire sight for a stick figure or a cartoon or something completely different and unnapealing one for the mage, wouldn’t you think that this kinda dismiss the effect? I mean, if someone transforms (either by illusion or real transformation) the vampire into an ugly goat, would the Presence effect still work?
                          Yes, it would. That's the nature of the power. Presence isn't relying in any of this to affect you, you're affected because you're in the area of effect. Even vampires that have Presence in-clan can be ugly as Hell and have the Charisma of dried cream paint, they still can use Presence and it works all the same.

                          Of course, where a roll is required they may have it low if they have low Charisma, but guess what, Majesty has no such roll (although it would be still penalized elsewhere by such a low stat), and having a low roll isn't the same as the power not working. As long as you can still identify the vampire (and it would be dangerous to cut yourself of this ability), you're still under the effect.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          That’s a good point. But since I am planning to avoid mind control in general, specially Dominate, why not also try Presence?
                          Because of the kind of scene it tends to be used in. I'd give you that Dominate is hostile, hands down, and you're likely to want the vampire down if possible. It is also easier to protect against, I'll go there later. If a vampire is using Dominate on you, probably (not necessarily) the conversation is already over for you as they want to force through.

                          Presence is easily broken by conflict, though, so while it isn't fair play, it tends to be used in situations where the social ball is still rolling, and you can't know beforehand if dropping the ball will be a good idea. That's the strategic aspect. That coupled with how easy it is to stop anyways and how far you may have to go with your defense, I think the payoff is just too low.

                          For Dominate? Totally worth it. For Presence? You're setting yourself to lose more than gain.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Oh, and don’t forget the WP roll (diff. 8) too. Also, M20 says that mages can resist psychihc attacks with WP (dff. 6), would that also apply to vampiric disciplines, thus allowing an additional roll?
                          That's up in the air, but I would personally lower the first WP roll to Dif 6 instead of making two rolls or not giving you nothing out of it. But the ST could rule either way, lower it, give you two rolls, or just keep the Discipline designated roll because specific trumps general.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Depriving the vampire’s senses is hostile, but low profile.
                          Not at all.

                          It doesn't matter how much the Sleepers in the scene don't get it, any Vampires at it know that Vampires don't have strokes. They don't need further evidence to know that a supernatural messing happened. Vampires are an extremely paranoid lot used to make decisions with very little information because they're also extremely secretive.

                          That's where the social ball stuff kicks in. A diplomatic meeting between Vampires and Mages? It is instantly over, while Presence itself wouldn't necessarily be seen as so overtly hostile. The vampires have exactly zero need to find out who did it, and as a diplomat you may become the target of their hostility anyway by proxy. Not to say that the victim doesn't know what you did, but do know what they did. This isn't complete information at first, but is enough for an immortal monster to work from later.

                          Paralyzing, depriving of sense or anything so extreme obviously works, at least to some extent, but they are extreme. Whatever happens next, they'll have later unforeseeable consequences. You make enemies, upset higher ups, leaves a trail of strange but eventful occurrences. They're a good answer to a conflict, not so much to subtle (if preternaturally intense) influence.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Sunglasses only increase the difficulty. Even removing your own eyes only increases difficulty. As long as the vampire can look at you eye sockets he can Dominate, according to V20.
                          Just to be sure, I'd advise that against Dominate you don't worry so much about filtering their image, but put a two-tier protection of blackening your eyes (for the -3 on your resisting roll) and scrambling the vampire's voice completely and record it. As in Presence, Dominate isn't exactly tied to the Kindred's voice, so hearing the commands isn't a good idea even filtered, but not understanding them is good enough. Later you hear the record.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          Or, the last option would be to have the trigger to knockout the vampire instead of severing sense/paralyzing/filtering. This would stop everything befor it even begins.
                          No, not even that would work completely.

                          As I said before, the power does not really requires the vampire to even stay conscious. You may very well stay having the urge to be as helpful as possible to a torpid undead you now want to help wake up, maybe even giving your blood. And it wouldn't stop Presence before it begins because, again, this is an instant effect once activated by the Vampire. In the moment you can perceive it, you're already under its effect.

                          If you had Time you could try to mess with the trigger to set the effect a little earlier than the actual trigger, but your Wonder won't have this luxury.

                          Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                          The only power from Auspex that can help is the aura reading, that can be used in people. The auspex user would see “myriad sparkles” in the mage aura (and every other mage around) and maybe in the vampire aura as well, indicating that a spell is affecting him. It doesn’t give trails, nor exact Ressonances like Prime does.
                          They don't need it. They're not Mages, they're Vampires. Effect happen, they identify a Mage in the vicinity, what would you think? Do not underestimate Auspex users so easily, they won't get as much information as you can at once, but they can find out a lot of things with time or if you're careless.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            That may work, but the idea that Presence shows up as actual changes in neurotransmitters is a bold assumption. Given the Discipline can intensify your emotions beyond your brains physical limits, affect people with neurological conditions that dampen emotion already, and even other Vampires, whose emotions do not come from brain activity at all, I'd say it probably wouldn't work.

                            As an ST I could make a case for generally dampening emotions having a chance, at the cost of dealing with whatever consequences might come from dampening your emotions with Life without Mind. I wouldn't recommend that as a lifestyle, but on a pinch beggars can't be chosers.
                            I believe the point is that even that Presence does not affect the brain chemistry and neurotransmitters and etc., the mage is a human being and he can affect his brain chemistry to counterbalance the emotions. Presence affects emotions, that's a fact explicitly said in V20, and the mage can play with emotions by tweaking brain chemistry. So, for example, if the vampire activates Presence and the mage would starts feeling happiness for being around the vampire, even that there is no homrone/substance/whatever acting in the brain to cause such hapiness, the mage can release the opposite hormone/substance/whatever to remove that happiness. The same goes for every emotion, since they all have an opposite substance, or at least another substance that would superimpose the feeling.

                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            Actually not.

                            First, a dead body (the thing that comprises an undead) is under Matter, not Life. Period. You can scan a body with Life to see if there's a Life Pattern, but you can't pre-cast Life to detect a non-Life Pattern.

                            Second, this is the problem with setting detection effects beforehand. At a live casting you are right. Life would promptly show that this body has no Life, Forces would show that this body has no personal heat. But precasting the effect must be able to first find out there is a body, as you're not providing it live. Hence you necessarily needs Matter to cast this effect as you defined it, so it detects an object with human form that can then be scanned for heat or Life.
                            Ok, I didn't even remember why we were talking about that and I read the posts to know. It was HorizonParty2021`s example of scaning vampires and filter always running effect. The filter I was proposing was a Time hanged spell, where the activation would happen when a supernatural Resonance affects the mage brain. So the trigger is in the mage's brain. There is no need for scaning vampires around. Hell, I don't even want to know if it's a vampire or not, any supernatural that mess with the brain would activate the trigger.

                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            I stand corrected, which makes it even less relevant to create such a protection.

                            And one thing I'm seeing you mixing here strongly is the distinction between the power being active and the vampire getting something out of it. Again, Presence isn't Dominate. Awe does not affect any particular thing the vampire do or says, or their likeness. It affects how you weight their opinion.
                            How would that go in-game? Wouldn't the mage have to at least roll/spend WP to desobey the vampire? It is not as strong as Dominate but it's quite strong, you know, being unable to say no to an immortal bloodsucking monster.

                            I agree with the rest of your post from here. I just have some observations to make:

                            - When I said striking down/ KOing it was in the intention of doing it right before Presence kicks in. It's a f**ng Time 4 trigger, it's supposed to happen the exact moment the trigger condition is met. Why wouldn't it be able to activate instantly? It doesn't require any action.

                            - Depending on the situation, the vampire could not know the mage casted the effect. But, since there are lots of situations where the vampire indeed could identify who's messing with him, I realized that the best solution is to play with the mage's own brain. This way the effect will be completely low profile and no one would know what's happening.

                            Having said that, here is the list of the main powers that could affect the mage's mind:

                            -Dominate/Dementation (they require alsmost the same conditions): Anything that makes the mage not hear/understand the command would stop it. Also making the vampire unable to see the eyes of the mage somehow.

                            -Presence: Can be avoided by the scene with WP roll+point and could be avoided/broken by playing with the mage emotions brain chemistry.

                            - Mind magick: I read M20 and HDYDT and realized that Mind magick isn't the issue I thought it could be at all. The Mind mage would roll Arete with diff. WP+3 for mind reading and WP+6 for commanding actions that the target wouldn't do. For a 10 WP mage that's diff 10 and 3/6 more successes needed or jsut 3 if the Mind mage manages to get the -3 in Arete somehow. It's pretty high.
                            On top of that, the target can resist and shrug of the effect with a WP roll diff. 6. So, a master with Arete 5 and using 3 quintessence for the -3 mod, trying to just read the mind of a mage with WP 10, would roll 5 dices (diff. 10) and the target would roll 10 dices (diff. 6). If the target rolls more successes then there is no effect. For mind control, the Mind mage would need 3 success more than the target. The rules does not favor direct Mind influence.
                            Anyway, Mind magick is pratically impossible to stop, since it could require anything for the Mind mage to cast the effect (instrument dependant).

                            -Auspex: Telepathy cannot control the target, but can steal important info from him. As Mind magick, it is very hard to be stopped, because the vampire doesn't have to do anything to activate: only a Int+subterfuge roll diff. target WP) and a WP point to affect supernaturals. And since it's a vampiric power, I'm not sure the mage could shrug it off with WP.

                            The text from M20 I was talking about is this one:



                            It says mental commands and the "so forth" seems to imply that everything that can be considered a psychich assault, like kicking your brain open and getting its secrets. So, a case could be made that mages could resist Auspex too.

                            Now, for the solutions. As I said, a personal effect is the best solution. So, how could a personal effect stop Dominate? Remember that even if the mage doesn't have eyes the vampire is able to dominate as long as te vampire can see the eye sockets and thus the "windows to the soul".

                            Muting the vampire could work, because the command must be given. Maybe the subtitles idea from HorizonParty2021, adding a small delay. Since the command must be spoken while looking at the eyes, a subtitle that shows after the vampire has done his thing could work. Also, the mage will be aware that the power is running so he can also not look into the vampire eyes.

                            About the Auspex, maybe shuffling the brain waves pattern or structure in a way that the vampire couldn't recognize it. The power description makes very clear that it can only be used in mortals (and later supernaturals), but I believe it can't be used in animals. So, changing the pattern of the brain in a bit of drastic way could work.
                            If you think of it like a cryptography, it could work even against Mind magick. I know I'm pushing here now :P
                            Last edited by Lord Revan; 01-10-2022, 11:56 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                              I believe the point is that even that Presence does not affect the brain chemistry and neurotransmitters and etc., the mage is a human being and he can affect his brain chemistry to counterbalance the emotions.
                              That's.... really not how brain chemistry works. Very few neurotransmitters are antagonistic (that is, only one can bind to a site at a time, so the one most present is the signal sent), esp. regarding emotional states. If a Presence is making you "happy" you can't send in "sad" chemicals until you're "balanced." You're just going to make yourself happy-sad... which is generally highly distressing, confusing, and fraught with traumatic potential.

                              Hell, I don't even want to know if it's a vampire or not, any supernatural that mess with the brain would activate the trigger.
                              The issue then goes back to what the triggered hung effect actually does, since you wanted to target the one trying to mess with your PC's brain over self-buffing to resist the supernatural mind-whammy.

                              The text from M20 I was talking about is this one:
                              That's specifically in the part about resolving Sphere magic, and should be read as such, not a general statement to all supernatural powers. Especially with the Nightfolk and countermagic sidebar right there two pages later to discuss how to approach that.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                I believe the point is that even that Presence does not affect the brain chemistry and neurotransmitters and etc., the mage is a human being and he can affect his brain chemistry to counterbalance the emotions.
                                ​I got that, but as Heavy Arms said it isn't so simple, and the fact that it is a supernatural and impossibly extreme emotion muddies matters further.

                                That's why I said I, as an ST wouldn't let it work, but could make a case for general dampening. But ultimately this is well in the territory of ST's call, so I step down from saying if it is likely or not to work on your case, or even if any particular answer makes more sense for the game. Going how IRL it works, though, Heavy Arms is right, it straight up wouldn't work, instead it would mess your brain royally.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                The filter I was proposing was a Time hanged spell, where the activation would happen when a supernatural Resonance affects the mage brain.
                                Yes, that one would only require Life as trigger, Prime to assert that the source is a strange resonance.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                How would that go in-game? Wouldn't the mage have to at least roll/spend WP to desobey the vampire?
                                The thing is the fact that the power is affecting the vampire's opinions, not your thought patterns. It is tricky, but basically it won't make, for example, you believe everything the vampire says is true, or follow through any order whatsoever. But lets say the Awe user says a given course of action is a good idea:

                                If you know for a fact that it isn't, like attacking your allies, it will simply fail, because it can't change what you know for a fact. If it is evidently dangerous for you or your interests it fails, because it can't change what your interests and goals are. You can interpret it as giving automatic successes against you in every social roll the vampire makes. Extremely powerful, indeed, but anything that wouldn't merit a social roll to begin with is out of question, and the vampire has no power to decide what a success entails, this is still under your own power. If they convince you that your allies are likely to betray you, it is still on you to decide what to make with this conclusion.

                                And remember that anything too weird may prompt you to decide to question the situation. You don't need to know necessarily it is a supernatural power, although even not blocking the power your effect will warn you that you're being so affected. Then it is just a WP point and a roll, and I would personally give you the benefit of making at Dif 6 if you rolled at least 3 successes in your effect.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                - When I said striking down/ KOing it was in the intention of doing it right before Presence kicks in. It's a f**ng Time 4 trigger, it's supposed to happen the exact moment the trigger condition is met. Why wouldn't it be able to activate instantly? It doesn't require any action.
                                Yes, but Presence doesn't, either. While Dominate requires an order to be given, Presence instantly has your emotions under your sway. So it is basically everything going instant and the trigger doesn't have enough of an advantage to trump the Discipline. For other powers it would definitely work, as they do require some other action from the vampire's part.

                                Not that it wouldn't have any effect. Again, you would be under Awe, Majesty or whatever of an incapacitated vampire. The scene will dictate what that entails.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                -Dominate/Dementation (they require alsmost the same conditions): Anything that makes the mage not hear/understand the command would stop it. Also making the vampire unable to see the eyes of the mage somehow.
                                You can blotch your eyes with Forces alone, and use sunglasses not for the bonus, but to conceal it from witnesses wen it happens. A small effect to block the light completely should give you the same bonus of having your eyes ripped-off.

                                Another options would be to straight-up use Life to freaking move your eyes from their usual spot, as the boxed text mentions that Vicissitude can make things trickier. But that is obviously a little harder to conceal and not harm your eyes.

                                I mean, putting then inside a clothed area would be easy to conceal, but not exactly healthy for your eyes.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                It says mental commands and the "so forth" seems to imply that everything that can be considered a psychich assault, like kicking your brain open and getting its secrets. So, a case could be made that mages could resist Auspex too.
                                Even if it does, the question of knowing what's happening is trickier here. Even with your effect there were be no alarm for Auspex because it doesn't affect the brain itself in any biological way. Here I'd say that your Prime effect would need Correspondence to be able to identify the probe, due to lack of anything in the brain itself alerting to the effect. Same goes for Mind Magic that reads your mind or emotions.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                Muting the vampire could work, because the command must be given. Maybe the subtitles idea from HorizonParty2021, adding a small delay. Since the command must be spoken while looking at the eyes, a subtitle that shows after the vampire has done his thing could work. Also, the mage will be aware that the power is running so he can also not look into the vampire eyes.
                                Agreed. Muting or scrambling the commands would work. I'd prefer to record the words instead of setting a delay just to be sure that the vampire won't be pressing the power over you anymore when you decide to hear/read it. A mere delay would be a risk, if certainly a lesser one.

                                Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                                If you think of it like a cryptography, it could work even against Mind magick. I know I'm pushing here now :P
                                You are, indeed.

                                The problem is that you're doing it with Life, so you're not just messing with the signal you give off, but with your actual thoughts. I'd say you can do that in a pinch, but you would have to define a duration for the effect and be happy with an animal mind for that time. It isn't the best predefined defense you could have, but is an idea for when you're really in a situation where you don't want to rely solely on your WP to protect some secret.


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