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Sorcerer using Artifacts?

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  • Sorcerer using Artifacts?

    So, I'm not sure if the rules are clear on this or what you guys think on the matter, but would it be possible for an Awakened Mage to "dedicate" an Artifact to a Sorcerer of "limited" magic, i.e. to make such artifact with the goal of giving it to a sorcerer allie? It's been a while since I've read the supplement about Sorcerers to know the answer for this, of course many rules can be "bended", therefore I ask you, what's your opinion on the matter? And what are the official answer (if there is one)?

  • #2
    Using an Artifact requires the user to make an Arete roll. Sorcerers don't have Arete; so officially, Artifacts don't work for them.

    If I were to bend the rules to allow it, I'd probably do something like requiring the sorcerer to spend a precious resource to activate the Artifact (say, Willpower or maybe Mana), then roll a dice pool equal to the highest Sphere of the Effect you're trying to activate. I might also scale the cost paid with the highest Sphere; e.g., a three-dot Effect would cost three Willpower to activate.

    To do otherwise would undermine the value of Talismans.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
      Using an Artifact requires the user to make an Arete roll. Sorcerers don't have Arete; so officially, Artifacts don't work for them.

      If I were to bend the rules to allow it, I'd probably do something like requiring the sorcerer to spend a precious resource to activate the Artifact (say, Willpower or maybe Mana), then roll a dice pool equal to the highest Sphere of the Effect you're trying to activate. I might also scale the cost paid with the highest Sphere; e.g., a three-dot Effect would cost three Willpower to activate.

      To do otherwise would undermine the value of Talismans.

      The thing is, I'm not talking about Taismans, but rather Artifacts. Talismans are made using part of the Mage's Avatar and can even act independently of the Mage, as they have their own Arete imbued into them. Talismans are also explicitly given to sleepers to use for this very reason, because the user doesn't need to have Arete to activate it, as the Talisman has its own Arete, therefore basically anyone could use one. On the other hand, rules for Artifacts are less clear...

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


        The thing is, I'm not talking about Taismans, but rather Artifacts. Talismans are made using part of the Mage's Avatar and can even act independently of the Mage, as they have their own Arete imbued into them. Talismans are also explicitly given to sleepers to use for this very reason, because the user doesn't need to have Arete to activate it, as the Talisman has its own Arete, therefore basically anyone could use one. On the other hand, rules for Artifacts are less clear...
        Like I said, Sorcerers don't have Arete either. So it's pretty clear that Artifacts can't be used by them according to a strict reading of the rules.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

          Like I said, Sorcerers don't have Arete either. So it's pretty clear that Artifacts can't be used by them according to a strict reading of the rules.

          I'm pretty sure you are not understanding it wrong, as you said Sorcerers can't use Talismans when in reality they can and it's explicitly stated in the books. Any sleeper can use Charms or Talismans. My doubt is about Artifacts, because the rules aren't clear here.

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          • #6
            No; I said that sorcerers can't use Artifacts. They don't have Arete, and you need Arete to use an Artifact. Read both of my posts again: you'll see that that's what I've been saying all along.


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            • #7
              There's a confusion in terminology here.

              Mage uses the term "Wonder" as the term for "magic item" with an "Artifact" being a specific type of magic item with only One effect that requires an Arete roll by the user(Most of the time, Mage is nothing if not inconsistent).

              Sorcerer, despite modern versions being Mage sourcebooks, uses the term "Artifact" to describe "any magic item not made by a sorcerer" and calls "any magic item made by a sorcerer" a "Talisman", which has a Very specific definition in Mage's wonder system.

              The terminology here is a chaotic mess.

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              • #8
                I had forgotten about those. When I said “Artifact”, I meant it in the sense of the type of Wonder that's called an Artifact.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                  There's a confusion in terminology here.

                  Mage uses the term "Wonder" as the term for "magic item" with an "Artifact" being a specific type of magic item with only One effect that requires an Arete roll by the user(Most of the time, Mage is nothing if not inconsistent).

                  Sorcerer, despite modern versions being Mage sourcebooks, uses the term "Artifact" to describe "any magic item not made by a sorcerer" and calls "any magic item made by a sorcerer" a "Talisman", which has a Very specific definition in Mage's wonder system.

                  The terminology here is a chaotic mess.

                  Oh I see, that is something I was unaware of. The terms are very confusing to say the least, then, also, I was reading Forged by Dragon's Fire and there are some artifacts that don't list the Arete test, e.g. Spiritual Armor, I can't see a reason why a Sorcerer wouldn't be able to use a Spiritual Armour. The Sorcerer would just have to wear it and it has some effects. It doesn't seem like something that would require an Arete test and it's not stated that it's necessary either.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    No; I said that sorcerers can't use Artifacts. They don't have Arete, and you need Arete to use an Artifact. Read both of my posts again: you'll see that that's what I've been saying all along.

                    True, sorry, I was waking up in a very cold morning and mixed some things up lol.

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                    • #11
                      I think the source of the confusion was the end of my first post, where I was talking about how a house rule allowing sorcerers to use Artifacts has the potential to step on the toes of Talismans; and as such, there should be something in there to keep Talismans an attractive option despite being harder to make. Thus my thought that you might have to pay some sort of price to use an Artifact when you don't have Arete of your own — something that someone using a Talisman wouldn't have to worry about. But it would still be an improvement over not being able to use an Artifact at all, which is what a strict reading says would be the case.

                      If I recall correctly, M20 reclassifies the likes of Spiritual Armor as a Trinket, not an Artifact. And, like Charms, Trinkets are something that anyone can use. Indeed, I tend to view Charms and Trinkets as a set: Charms require a built-in Arete roll to use, like Talismans, but have limited use after which you need to replace the Charm, which makes them good for “expendible Wonders” and explains why they don't require as much Prime to create; Trinkets are likewise “cheap Wonders” that differ from Charms in that their effects tend to be passive and ongoing rather than something you activate (so no “activation rolls”, and the concept of “limited uses” doesn't apply to them).

                      Where Charms don't require as much Prime to make, Trinkets don't require any Prime to make; just whatever Spheres govern the effect the Trinket provides.


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                      • #12
                        If I recall correctly, M20 reclassifies the likes of Spiritual Armor as a Trinket, not an Artifact. And, like Charms, Trinkets are something that anyone can use.
                        Oh, that's very interesting as it would explain the reason why Spiritual Armor is one of the few Artifacts listed in Forged by Dragon's Fire that doesn't cite needing an Arete roll, also it wouldn't even make much sense as all of Spiritual Armor powers are "passive", so to speak. It helps a lot, making it a different category then.

                        Trinkets don't require any Prime to make; just whatever Spheres govern the effect the Trinket provides.
                        Nice to know this, I think I need to have a look at M20, this is new for me.

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                        • #13
                          It's in the Book of Secrets.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                            It's in the Book of Secrets.

                            Thank you very much sir!

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                            • #15
                              Talismans could refer to either the sorcerer magic items or the Mage ones. For sorcerers, Artifacts are either powerful "legendary" talismans (6 dot talismans) or Mage talismans. I would argue that a sorcerer could use a Mage talisman but they would need to make either a willpower roll or occult/esoterica rolls to try to use them. I could also see a sorcerer with path of Enchantment being able to use them as both WOD:Sorcerer and Sorcerer: Revised state that there is little difference between a sorcerer's Talisman and a Mage's Talisman.
                              Last edited by Starcomet; 05-25-2022, 07:59 PM.

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