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  • Enchanting a song

    Hello!

    One of my players characters is a singer who's about to release a new record. He wants a song to have a special effect when someone listens to it, no matter if its on record. It is a song about magic, so he wants people to feel magic is possible when listening to the song.


    What spheres and rates would he need to achieve that?


  • #2
    That's one of the many things that rules as written are poorly designed to do lol.

    In theory such a thing would be Entropy 5... Which I know, disappointly high.

    I would say Mind 3 is enough thou. If not, just Mind 5 or perhaps even 6... That would depend on you

    However, if he does that, have ANY other Mage tell him that this is a certain one way ticket to a 101 room and his rebirth as a proud "Bro in Black". The Techies would catch this before it were even aired to the radios.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is covered in Book of Secrets. Your player is creating a Primer (p.146) with a Virtual Foundation (p.154). A Primer requires Arete 5, Prime 4, Mind 3, and Spirit 3, and requires the mage to invest two dots of Willpower into it, along with achieving at least 30 successes in crafting the Primer's foundation (p.160); I'd use Expression for that. The Sphere requirements for embedding the Primer into a song are satisfied and possibly exceeded by the Mind 3 requirement of making a Primer; so all you need to worry about is what Flaws to saddle it with (p.157).

      A lesser version that doesn't actually cause Awakenings would more likely be a Virtual Talisman that projects a Mind effect. That would only require Prime 4 and Mind 2 (to create a Mental Impulse in anyone hearing the song) and the investment of a single dot of Willpower. Per the Invention chart in M20 (p.463), it would probably require ten successes from Expression (as opposed to the 30+ successes that making a Primer requires) to craft the song being used as the effect's foundation (Book of Secrets, pp.153–154). Given the nature of a song, I'd treat the “material” requirements as the quality of the singer's voice and the quality of the recording studio; by building the effect into the song instead of the record, you can make as many recordings of the song as you wish; and any time any of them plays, whoever hears the song is subject to it.

      Bear in mind that you still need to invest Quintessence into the song (Book of Secrets, pp.154–155) and Quicken the result (pp 155–156).


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      • #4
        Maybe the "Conceptual Entropy" section in How Do You Do That, page 134 can shed some light. (Yes I am aware how ridiculous and contradictory HDYDT is, but it's sometimes useful for ideas or reference).

        Based on that you might be able to accomplish this with Entropy 5 and Mind 2 or 3, but I don't think it would be permanent so you would have to build in some duration into it. It's similar to creating a magick-buffed meme that is capable of influencing people, and everyone who heard the song would essentially roll willpower to resist or otherwise be pursuaded towards the intent, which is to believe that magick is possible. It would probably be subtle, but on a mass scale if the song was good and millions of people heard it, it could have a profound effect on society as a whole.


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        • #5
          A song can't be a Primer, and a Primer is meant to cause Awakening. The way songs and music are experienced is to passive to be a Primer.

          Now, Argonot said the the singer wants the listener to feel magic is possible. Many people believe magic is possible who aren't mages. This sounds more like a job for a conjunctional rote of Mind and Prime. You're trying to promote the idea that magic is possible on an emotional level. However, Dataweaver is right about needing tons of successes in Performance and I'd add craft (song).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            This is covered in Book of Secrets. Your player is creating a Primer (p.146) with a Virtual Foundation (p.154). A Primer requires Arete 5, Prime 4, Mind 3, and Spirit 3, and requires the mage to invest two dots of Willpower into it, along with achieving at least 30 successes in crafting the Primer's foundation (p.160); I'd use Expression for that. The Sphere requirements for embedding the Primer into a song are satisfied and possibly exceeded by the Mind 3 requirement of making a Primer; so all you need to worry about is what Flaws to saddle it with (p.157).

            A lesser version that doesn't actually cause Awakenings would more likely be a Virtual Talisman that projects a Mind effect. That would only require Prime 4 and Mind 2 (to create a Mental Impulse in anyone hearing the song) and the investment of a single dot of Willpower. Per the Invention chart in M20 (p.463), it would probably require ten successes from Expression (as opposed to the 30+ successes that making a Primer requires) to craft the song being used as the effect's foundation (Book of Secrets, pp.153–154). Given the nature of a song, I'd treat the “material” requirements as the quality of the singer's voice and the quality of the recording studio; by building the effect into the song instead of the record, you can make as many recordings of the song as you wish; and any time any of them plays, whoever hears the song is subject to it.

            Bear in mind that you still need to invest Quintessence into the song (Book of Secrets, pp.154–155) and Quicken the result (pp 155–156).
            A Primer? I dont think the purpose here is to create mass Awakenings... Just to make people get that "magical feeling".

            Mind 2 alone? Hmm... I dont know... Mind 2 is just emotions... Shouldnt this be a full IDEA? Can Mind 2 transmit the "emotion of an idea"? What I mean is, ideas are abstractions on thoughts, while emotions are much more primitive feelings than full formed ideas... For example, could Mind 2 transmit the "emotion" that "Im in the second floor of the Techno-horror building at the Big Brother street and I need help?"

            I think the idea of "magik" is more than just an emotion... Althought Mind 2 could transmit some sense of strangeness, of "something else out there". As if it were a massive infusion of the changellings "glamour".

            I dont, Im serious not certain about the limits of Mind 2 and "empathic magik" as opposed to direct telepathy, which is why Im asking. I really dont have a full formed opinion in this, just questions, so I would like to hear from others to try to convince myself either way

            Comment


            • #7
              The Sphere is “Mind”, not “Emotion”; it deals with concepts as well as feelings.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                The Sphere is “Mind”, not “Emotion”; it deals with concepts as well as feelings.
                Yes, but Mind 2 deals exclusively with emotions. Telepathy is Mind 3. Mages that (for some reason) decided to stop at Mind 2 would be what we call "empaths", there is, people who sense and transmit emotions, as opposed to "telepaths", who communicate anything with thoughts (to the point of sharing sensorial perceptions besides just thoughts or memories).

                From my understanding thus, Mind 2 dont transmit concepts, just emotions, unless Im wrong

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                  A song can't be a Primer, and a Primer is meant to cause Awakening. The way songs and music are experienced is too passive to be a Primer.
                  Songs are passive? Very debatable. I would argue that in the hands of a capable singer at a live performance, a Primer in the form of a song could be even more effective than a Primer in the form of a book: the singer would be able to tailor her performance of the song to the audience.

                  If there are difficulties with a Primer as a song, they likely have more to do with the information content that can be stuffed into a five-minute performance; most sample Primers we've seen so far are massive tomes, something that, if put to verse, would likely require a whole album of songs at a minimum. But it's up to the Storyteller to decide if that's an actual requirement.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    Songs are passive? Very debatable. I would argue that in the hands of a capable singer at a live performance, a Primer in the form of a song could be even more effective than a Primer in the form of a book: the singer would be able to tailor her performance of the song to the audience.

                    If there are difficulties with a Primer as a song, they likely have more to do with the information content that can be stuffed into a five-minute performance; most sample Primers we've seen so far are massive tomes, something that, if put to verse, would likely require a whole album of songs at a minimum. But it's up to the Storyteller to decide if that's an actual requirement.
                    I agree it would be possible to make it into a Primer, however I believe OP simply wanted to diverge Consensus a little bit towards Magik is real, not evoke mass awakenings in the masses.

                    Be it as it may, the only thing this would accomplish would be a quick trip to Mecha Construct. There's no way the Technocracy would let this ever be played anywhere outside of an Iteration X lab.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kakost View Post

                      Yes, but Mind 2 deals exclusively with emotions. Telepathy is Mind 3. Mages that (for some reason) decided to stop at Mind 2 would be what we call "empaths", there is, people who sense and transmit emotions, as opposed to "telepaths", who communicate anything with thoughts (to the point of sharing sensorial perceptions besides just thoughts or memories).

                      From my understanding thus, Mind 2 dont transmit concepts, just emotions, unless Im wrong
                      M20 p.519:
                      Now the Mage begins to skim the contents of unshielded minds, discern emotional states, read memories that have been left behind on objects or places, and project single words or emotional impulses to other people. The simpler the emotional content, the easier it is to send or read; flash of rage, for instance, is easy to project or receive, but the complexity of reflective melancholy presents a challenge to inexperienced Mind-mages. (Game-wise, such complex Feats demand more successes than a simple feat does.)
                      The feeling that magic is possible, then, should be possible to convey using Mind 2; but it would be at least a Difficult Feat (3 successes) or even an Impressive Feat (4 successes), not Simple (1 success) or Standard (2 successes).

                      People often overlook the Magickal Feats chart (M20 p.502) when deciding what is and isn't possible.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kakost View Post

                        Be it as it may, the only thing this would accomplish would be a quick trip to Mecha Construct. There's no way the Technocracy would let this ever be played anywhere outside of an Iteration X lab.

                        I'm not so sure about this, but even so then you build in a Time delay where it is just a song until it reaches a certain threshold of popularity. Once it's at the top of the charts already, there is little the Technocracy can do to stop it beyond vengeance, if they can figure out who did it. Admittedly, they would almost certainly try to kill the offender so they couldn't do it again.


                        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        The feeling that magic is possible, then, should be possible to convey using Mind 2; but it would be at least a Difficult Feat (3 successes) or even an Impressive Feat (4 successes), not Simple (1 success) or Standard (2 successes).

                        People often overlook the Magickal Feats chart (M20 p.502) when deciding what is and isn't possible.

                        I would argue that with Mind 2 you can convey the general emotions of "awe" or "wonder", but you can't make it as specific as wonder/belief in magick. I would argue doing so would require Mind 3. But in any case I don't feel very strongly about it and it's really a judgement call I think.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by breggie View Post


                          I'm not so sure about this, but even so then you build in a Time delay where it is just a song until it reaches a certain threshold of popularity. Once it's at the top of the charts already, there is little the Technocracy can do to stop it beyond vengeance, if they can figure out who did it. Admittedly, they would almost certainly try to kill the offender so they couldn't do it again.
                          Well, Im not sure about you but I would rather do my stuff without enfuriating a secret Cabal of powerful fanatics that control the world and would wish to unleash divine retribution on my skin.





                          Originally posted by breggie View Post
                          I would argue that with Mind 2 you can convey the general emotions of "awe" or "wonder", but you can't make it as specific as wonder/belief in magick. I would argue doing so would require Mind 3. But in any case I don't feel very strongly about it and it's really a judgement call I think.
                          Yeah, Im also divided in this. It's a little grey area of subjectivity here, and I cant make up my mind on this regard, hobestly

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kakost View Post
                            Well, Im not sure about you but I would rather do my stuff without enfuriating a secret Cabal of powerful fanatics that control the world and would wish to unleash divine retribution on my skin.
                            Without a doubt, but the OP was asking how to do it, not if it was a good idea. It's obviously going to gain worldwide attention once it happens, and most of that attention will be negative. I was merely saying that I don't think it's a given the the Technocracy could stop it, particularly if thought was put in before hand on how to make sure it spreads quickly enough or far enough before they get a chance to try. It is most likely a death sentence for the mage who enacted it though, but maybe they accept that outcome as worth it... I dunno.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kakost View Post
                              Yeah, Im also divided in this. It's a little grey area of subjectivity here, and I cant make up my mind on this regard, honestly
                              I'm figuring Mind 2 because Mind 3 feels like overkill. Mind 3 is where you're able “to link minds, forge telepathic communications, read or influence another person's thoughts, craft mental illusions, enter someone's dreams and explore dream Realms, and blast psychic assaults into an unwilling rival's consciousness.” By contrast, the bullet points for Mind 2 are “Read Surface Thoughts/Empathic Bond/Create Impressions/Mental Impulse”. “I feel that magic is possible” strikes me very much as “Create Impressions”.


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