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  • #16
    Originally posted by breggie View Post

    Without a doubt, but the OP was asking how to do it, not if it was a good idea. It's obviously going to gain worldwide attention once it happens, and most of that attention will be negative. I was merely saying that I don't think it's a given the the Technocracy could stop it, particularly if thought was put in before hand on how to make sure it spreads quickly enough or far enough before they get a chance to try. It is most likely a death sentence for the mage who enacted it though, but maybe they accept that outcome as worth it... I dunno.
    Not necessarily. Changing the Consensus is hard, and is not something that can be accomplished with successes on a Mind effect. You can change what people believe, temporarily; but the Reality Zone won't change unless you make efforts to “soften it up” first, then use your Mind effect or good old fashioned propaganda to reshape people's beliefs, and then keep the revised beliefs in place for months or years, free of contamination from contrary views (Operative's Dossier, pp.90–91).


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    • #17
      I used a TV show, "Regeneration 2050", as an instrument off mass-influence. It is meant to inspire certain unpopular ideas in a target population, reasonably close to the studio where the show is filmed. There's a physical infrastructure involved that includes broadcast satellites that are Technocracy Wonders.

      Another thing I considered was having some old European villages where it is still possible to curse your neighbor - "A pox on your left eye.". As mentioned above, those speaking the curse aren't mages, but they have access to a free Correspondence 3, Entropy 3, Life 3 effect, because such curses were "released as a Single" by long dead witches in the Dark Ages.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by breggie View Post
        I'm not so sure about this, but even so then you build in a Time delay where it is just a song until it reaches a certain threshold of popularity. Once it's at the top of the charts already, there is little the Technocracy can do to stop it beyond vengeance, if they can figure out who did it. Admittedly, they would almost certainly try to kill the offender so they couldn't do it again.
        To make it reach that treshold, one would have to distribute it trough networks that are, more likely than not, monitored. Like NWO alone has a whole sub-convention monitoring the internet that specializes on using *it* as a vector. The Syndicate monitors trends. This control isn't perfect but depending on how strong one makes it to be, trying to "trample" on this arena could be stopped.

        For instance: a YouTube video that pings with magic(k) - be it from the Mind effect or the Time effect (a Time delay it's magick opperating over some another effect) - would be among the things that Data/Prime could filter for them to take down or subvert even before it becomes viral (maybe replacing it with one "sanitized" version - rummors of the "original video" could remain as one of those web urban legend).

        Originally posted by Dataweaver
        If there are difficulties with a Primer as a song, they likely have more to do with the information content that can be stuffed into a five-minute performance; most sample Primers we've seen so far are massive tomes, something that, if put to verse, would likely require a whole album of songs at a minimum. But it's up to the Storyteller to decide if that's an actual requirement.
        As an idea: Information could instead exist as metatext of sorts.

        There's a concept about two types of readers, active and passive. The passive reader it's the one that reads the book from start to the end and absorbs what's into it. The active reader, on the other hand, it's the one that goes beyond and analizes (words like subtext, metatext and intertext come to mind :P) . While all books can be read both ways, some authors would write to make passive reading enjoyable and some for active reading (and some for both).
        A story written with "active reading" in mind may seem very nonsensical at the first reading, but would unfold possibilities and meaning after an analisis - and part of the joy it's that you, the reader, worked to make that part of the story. In general, the idea it's to make every word count. In a similar way as how it's said that in good "detective stories" the reader has to be able to solve the mistery -having all the clues - before the detective anounces the solution

        Now, I'm not a musicologist, but I've seen the kind of work musicologists put to and it loks like *that* work. They would hear the song, sure, various times - they would also be interested on the instruments, the musicians, the historical period, the intelectual currents during that period...

        I would imagine a song could be similarly densely packed with the intention of be *worked* uppon that way - perhaps including pieces of other popular songs into it, than the listener can identify, and that have "meaning" that, when put together, form part of the Primer (Among other things. Like, some symbolism inside the lyrics could be heavily reminiscent of woodstock, so the "reader" researches woodstock and that's also part of the Primer)

        Of course, this kinda defeats the OP purpose (and, at the same time, it's overkill?) - people that just cassualy listens ain't going to "feel magick" in the Primer sense of it - but, it makes sense with the whole concept of the Primer: That not everyone that just reads/listens to it it's going to "get" the more profound insigths, among other things because it requires serious work.
        Last edited by Aleph; 06-02-2022, 12:48 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

          Not necessarily. Changing the Consensus is hard, and is not something that can be accomplished with successes on a Mind effect. You can change what people believe, temporarily; but the Reality Zone won't change unless you make efforts to “soften it up” first, then use your Mind effect or good old fashioned propaganda to reshape people's beliefs, and then keep the revised beliefs in place for months or years, free of contamination from contrary views (Operative's Dossier, pp.90–91).

          I never said anything about changing consensus - indeed, this is the first time that thought even entered my mind.

          I have no idea what the OP's player's purpose for wanting to do this is/was, only that they want to "make people believe magic is possible". I agree that you can't change the consensus this way, but I never assumed that was the OP's player's intent.

          And whether or not it is worth death to a particular individual character is not for us to say. Maybe making a single person wonder in awe of the universe for a single moment is worth it to some character.


          Originally posted by Aleph View Post

          To make it reach that treshold, one would have to distribute it trough networks that are, more likely than not, monitored. Like NWO alone has a whole sub-convention monitoring the internet that specializes on using *it* as a vector. The Syndicate monitors trends. This control isn't perfect but depending on how strong one makes it to be, trying to "trample" on this arena could be stopped.

          For instance: a YouTube video that pings with magic(k) - be it from the Mind effect or the Time effect (a Time delay it's magick opperating over some another effect) - would be among the things that Data/Prime could filter for them to take down or subvert even before it becomes viral (maybe replacing it with one "sanitized" version - rummors of the "original video" could remain as one of those web urban legend).

          You make it sound like the Traditions can't possibly exist because the Technocracy has total control of everything and everyone on earth. That's a depressing game world right there, even for a technocrat character who would just be bored all the time as they monitor every grain of sand on earth for deviance.

          Maybe that's the way they're portrayed, I'm not an expert on metaplot. I read the books and understand them to a point, but I'm much more heavily rules-focused just by virtue of the fact I am a technically-minded person. I don't ST, and so for plot I can only react to how my ST portrays the Technocracy and Traditions, and in my gaming group neither is portrayed as having nearly as much control over all the doings of the world as you seem to indicate.
          Last edited by breggie; 06-02-2022, 01:49 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
            I'm figuring Mind 2 because Mind 3 feels like overkill. Mind 3 is where you're able “to link minds, forge telepathic communications, read or influence another person's thoughts, craft mental illusions, enter someone's dreams and explore dream Realms, and blast psychic assaults into an unwilling rival's consciousness.” By contrast, the bullet points for Mind 2 are “Read Surface Thoughts/Empathic Bond/Create Impressions/Mental Impulse”. “I feel that magic is possible” strikes me very much as “Create Impressions”.
            Hmmm... Yes, I guess you're right.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

              To make it reach that treshold, one would have to distribute it trough networks that are, more likely than not, monitored. Like NWO alone has a whole sub-convention monitoring the internet that specializes on using *it* as a vector. The Syndicate monitors trends. This control isn't perfect but depending on how strong one makes it to be, trying to "trample" on this arena could be stopped.
              I guess the best chance at this would be to add Entropy 5... If a techie boys catches it, it's the mundane version. If "uninspired" people catches it, it's also a mundane song.

              However, the TRUE meaningful song finds its way out by itself to the ears of those few able to derive meaning from it...


              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              As an idea: Information could instead exist as metatext of sorts.

              There's a concept about two types of readers, active and passive. The passive reader it's the one that reads the book from start to the end and absorbs what's into it. The active reader, on the other hand, it's the one that goes beyond and analizes (words like subtext, metatext and intertext come to mind :P) . While all books can be read both ways, some authors would write to make passive reading enjoyable and some for active reading (and some for both).
              A story written with "active reading" in mind may seem very nonsensical at the first reading, but would unfold possibilities and meaning after an analisis - and part of the joy it's that you, the reader, worked to make that part of the story. In general, the idea it's to make every word count. In a similar way as how it's said that in good "detective stories" the reader has to be able to solve the mistery -having all the clues - before the detective anounces the solution

              Now, I'm not a musicologist, but I've seen the kind of work musicologists put to and it loks like *that* work. They would hear the song, sure, various times - they would also be interested on the instruments, the musicians, the historical period, the intelectual currents during that period...

              I would imagine a song could be similarly densely packed with the intention of be *worked* uppon that way - perhaps including pieces of other popular songs into it, than the listener can identify, and that have "meaning" that, when put together, form part of the Primer (Among other things. Like, some symbolism inside the lyrics could be heavily reminiscent of woodstock, so the "reader" researches woodstock and that's also part of the Primer)

              Of course, this kinda defeats the OP purpose (and, at the same time, it's overkill?) - people that just cassualy listens ain't going to "feel magick" in the Primer sense of it - but, it makes sense with the whole concept of the Primer: That not everyone that just reads/listens to it it's going to "get" the more profound insigths, among other things because it requires serious work.
              Yes, I dont see problem with the lenghty of the work. A single painting or a single statue could become a Primer, without even needing the artist's signature to explain it.

              For example, the Cistine Chapel. In particular the painting of Adam and God, perhaps the most famous paint in history, is the subject of countless academic works, countless publications about all the math that Michelangelo used, and countless about the symbolism.

              A single image.

              A music album could definetely be used as a Primer; there are in music too countless examples of hidden meanings, double meanings and special meanings in melodies, instruments etc. It is "meta-art" indeed. I'd say that even a single song could serve as a Primer

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              • #22
                Originally posted by breggie View Post
                You make it sound like the Traditions can't possibly exist because the Technocracy has total control of everything and everyone on earth. That's a depressing game world right there, even for a technocrat character who would just be bored all the time as they monitor every grain of sand on earth for deviance.

                Maybe that's the way they're portrayed, I'm not an expert on metaplot. I read the books and understand them to a point, but I'm much more heavily rules-focused just by virtue of the fact I am a technically-minded person. I don't ST, and so for plot I can only react to how my ST portrays the Technocracy and Traditions, and in my gaming group neither is portrayed as having nearly as much control over all the doings of the world as you seem to indicate.
                There's a ligth year between being able to pick up something so obvious as a "magical bomb" on a popular Internet plataform, a "potential hit" that has yet to be known, before everyone starts seeing it (and yet after many saw it, hence the "urban legend" of a video can happen) ... and "total control of everything and everyone on earth"

                I'm just saying that they just happen to work inside the various distribution networks that music use, and just happen to have the same magick that other mages have: That allows things like to detect magick from afar, and place counters to it too.

                Traditions have to figth (and have fougth, but aren't exactly winning) to control these "spaces" precisely because they're useful for this sort of thing. So you have an "opposition" to beat, instead of doing what you please "unopposed".

                Perhaps you would have to use obscurer platforms, or beat certain obstacles, for your "Art" to be known. That would make the process slower than just "boom", instant hit ... And maybe it doesn't manage to change the world before shit hits the fan, but a number of people could be changed in the interim, and could keep the legend going if nothing else - which could be power in and of itself (if they don't have "original copies" of the spell, independant of the widder casting, that would need to be dealt with independantly).
                Last edited by Aleph; 06-02-2022, 03:51 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  Songs are passive? Very debatable. I would argue that in the hands of a capable singer at a live performance, a Primer in the form of a song could be even more effective than a Primer in the form of a book: the singer would be able to tailor her performance of the song to the audience.

                  If there are difficulties with a Primer as a song, they likely have more to do with the information content that can be stuffed into a five-minute performance; most sample Primers we've seen so far are massive tomes, something that, if put to verse, would likely require a whole album of songs at a minimum. But it's up to the Storyteller to decide if that's an actual requirement.
                  For a song, or more likely a cycle of songs to be a Primer, the person who has to learn the songs and perform them might awaken. They'd be actively engaged with the song cycle on many different levels. Primers, to be effective require active engagement. Thus books or video games could be Primers, but films can't. Films, paintings, songs, albums, can all be great art. But they can't be Primers.

                  That's not to say songs can't change minds. But for a Primer to work, you have to alter your own mind. In studying a book, or playing a video game, you're engaged actively with the work of art. I could see a play, opera, or song cycle, that acted as a Primer for those that perform the art, because of how they would be engaged. Heck, I could imagine a one off Primer that was meant to awaken the people making a film. But merely viewing or listening isn't going to be enough.
                  Last edited by Astromancer; 06-02-2022, 09:01 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Argonot View Post
                    Hello!

                    One of my players characters is a singer who's about to release a new record. He wants a song to have a special effect when someone listens to it, no matter if its on record. It is a song about magic, so he wants people to feel magic is possible when listening to the song.


                    What spheres and rates would he need to achieve that?
                    As I said on Facebook to the same question, it's not really about the spheres you need. After all Mind 2 gives you an emotional influence and Mind 3/4 can make that into an idea and some Correspondence would allow that to affect people remotely.

                    The real problem is that you want this effect to work on everyone who hears the song: 'when someone listens to it, no matter if its on record' and that's simply not possible under the Mage rules. You need an extra success for every target a spell effects and even with a massive ritual and a bunch of participants you're not going to be able to get much more than 20-odd successes. Take away the six successes you need to effect strangers remotely (M20 p504), and any successes you want to use for the duration (up to six more), and you're left with only being able to effect half a dozen to a dozen people or so.

                    Secondly this sort of effect is definitely vulgar with witnesses, because your intent is to force sleepers to believe in magic, against their Consensus. It's such a paradox that to me it would be justified to apply paradox for every sleeper who was affected.

                    If this sort of magic was possible don't you think that The Traditions would use it to scupper all the progress the Technocracy has made in the 20th century? Or that The Technocracy wouldn't use it to brainwash North America into believing that super-science is real? The Consensus is very hard to move, and takes a lot more than a simple song and two dozen successes to move.

                    Now for affecting a smaller number of people at a time, in a live concert, or to affect someone one time who hears an enchanted recording, or just the first few people who hear it, then it's perfectly acceptable, but no spell is capable of affecting everyone at all times.
                    Last edited by Dogstar; 06-03-2022, 12:29 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Just to clarify:

                      My player wants people who listens to the song to stop counting as witnesses for the duration of the effect. I guess it wouln't be possible to bring magic into the coincidental realm that easy (vulgar without witnesses tops).

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                        For a song, or more likely a cycle of songs to be a Primer, the person who has to learn the songs and perform them might awaken. They'd be actively engaged with the song cycle on many different levels. Primers, to be effective require active engagement. Thus books or video games could be Primers, but films can't. Films, paintings, songs, albums, can all be great art. But they can't be Primers.

                        That's not to say songs can't change minds. But for a Primer to work, you have to alter your own mind. In studying a book, or playing a video game, you're engaged actively with the work of art. I could see a play, opera, or song cycle, that acted as a Primer for those that perform the art, because of how they would be engaged. Heck, I could imagine a one off Primer that was meant to awaken the people making a film. But merely viewing or listening isn't going to be enough.
                        See Aleph's post #18.

                        People dedicated to it can analyze and find metatext on almost any work, and artists can apply those on purpose on absolutely any work. People can, as an objective fact, engage with films, paintings, music, etc. As they can certainly go through a book or game without ever engaging with the meanings of the content.

                        Music can be a primer, as it can convey just as much information and thought and provoke changes in mindset. It bears to mind, though, that it wouldn't affect any casual listener, it would take engagement as with any Primer.

                        Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                        As I said on Facebook to the same question, it's not really about the spheres you need. After all Mind 2 gives you an emotional influence and Mind 3/4 can make that into an idea and some Correspondence would allow that to affect people remotely.

                        The real problem is that you want this effect to work on everyone who hears the song: 'when someone listens to it, no matter if its on record' and that's simply not possible under the Mage rules. You need an extra success for every target a spell effects and even with a massive ritual and a bunch of participants you're not going to be able to get much more than 20-odd successes. Take away the six successes you need to effect strangers remotely (M20 p504), and any successes you want to use for the duration (up to six more), and you're left with only being able to effect half a dozen to a dozen people or so.

                        Secondly this sort of effect is definitely vulgar with witnesses, because your intent is to force sleepers to believe in magic, against their Consensus. It's such a paradox that to me it would be justified to apply paradox for every sleeper who was affected.

                        If this sort of magic was possible don't you think that The Traditions would use it to scupper all the progress the Technocracy has made in the 20th century? Or that The Technocracy wouldn't use it to brainwash North America into believing that super-science is real? The Consensus is very hard to move, and takes a lot more than a simple song and two dozen successes to move.

                        Now for affecting a smaller number of people at a time, in a live concert, or to affect someone one time who hears an enchanted recording, or just the first few people who hear it, then it's perfectly acceptable, but no spell is capable of affecting everyone at all times.
                        Setting aside the goal, I'll be on that later, the "feeling that magic is possible" isn't such a momentous task and is still a long way from being a Consensus Shifting thing. A lot of people fully believe in this without that affecting the Consensus, and a lot more have this feeling from time to time, even skeptics, as it is just a feeling.

                        Imprinting the feeling, not the actual concept, under the influence of music isn't something that strikes me in the least as Vulgar.

                        Now, the target is a more complex conundrum. Targeting the listeners as individuals isn't going to make it, and even trying to shift it to a kind of "area" won't help a lot, but the song itself may be the target. Making an object affect those that look into it doesn't need to go through multi-targeting considerations, affecting the song shouldn't either.

                        The real problem here is how to affect the song conceptually. The player doesn't want a particular copy, but the very idea of the song to be affected. That would probably also bypass most Union scans as no particular iteration is magical, you would have to examine the concept itself to find the effect, or track it after a session.

                        Here I'll have to agree that Entropy 5 is the best choice, as it lets you affect the conceptual song, the memes involved, and has clear-ish rules on setting the number of successes. Yet, it would be a big work, probably between 5 and 10 successes and you have to set beforehand the highest Willpower you want to affect, as this sets your Difficulty rating. Mind and Correspondence could still be used to ease or improve some aspects, but Entropy 5 plays mostly by itself here.

                        Another option with a lower ceiling would be Mind 2, Correspondence 3, with Corr to strengthen the link between distinct iterations of the song. This would be far more noticeable, though, and either demand a core record to be the focus of the spell, creating a fixed weak spot, or even more successes than with Entropy 5.

                        Finally, the easier but more unpredictable route, with Mind 2, Spirit 3 they can awaken the spirit of the song itself, bind the Mind effect to it, and wish for the better. The spirit isn't entirely reliable, but is also plenty resourceful, and that probably wouldn't require even 5 successes.

                        Originally posted by Argonot View Post
                        Just to clarify:

                        My player wants people who listens to the song to stop counting as witnesses for the duration of the effect. I guess it wouln't be possible to bring magic into the coincidental realm that easy (vulgar without witnesses tops).
                        The sad part is that this ain't nearly so simple.

                        Unless you decide that in your chronicle things can be that easy, which isn't a bad or good decision per se, by the standard setting your player had an idea that is completely doable and yet simply won't do what they want.

                        Counting as a witness isn't simply a matter of "feeling it is possible". Would that be the case, Mages would have it a lot easier. For a person to not count as witness they need thorough indoctrination in a particular Paradigm or set of Paradigms. It isn't enough to just not think what you see is impossible, they actually need to understand what they see and have a proper system to explain why that is how reality actually works.

                        Less than that and no matter how much they feel it is ok, they still count as Witnesses. That's why while far more numerous than the Mages themselves, Sleeper members of each Tradition are extremely valuable, and yet can't extend this benefit equally to every Tradition, or even every Mage of their own Tradition.

                        Your player needs a far more intrusive effect to have this even as a temporary benefit, or just use the song as a step in indoctrination instead of the whole thing. To produce an effect that actually makes the target believe in their Paradigm they would need at least +5 successes in the Entropy 5 version of the effect, or the second version with Mind 4 or 5 and maybe Correspondence 4. Doing it with Spirit would require 4 or 5, because instead of rousing the song's spirit they would have to locate and bind a powerful enough spirit with the desired power or create them from scratch (less powerful, but far more specialized than normal even for a spirit), although it would possibly remove the need or for Mind.

                        All those options would be requiring far more successes and be far more likely for the Union, and even rival Mystics, to perceive, locate and destroy. They would also probably be Vulgar with Witnesses, even if not necessarily to the degree Dogstar suggested (but maybe just like that). While Entropy 5 says that its effects are usually Coincidental, "usually" isn't "always" and this would definitely be the exception, as there would be both unaffected and post-effect witnesses to the radical and sudden change in disposition (this is a HUGE change in disposition).


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dogstar View Post

                          As I said on Facebook to the same question, it's not really about the spheres you need. After all Mind 2 gives you an emotional influence and Mind 3/4 can make that into an idea and some Correspondence would allow that to affect people remotely.

                          The real problem is that you want this effect to work on everyone who hears the song: 'when someone listens to it, no matter if its on record' and that's simply not possible under the Mage rules. You need an extra success for every target a spell effects and even with a massive ritual and a bunch of participants you're not going to be able to get much more than 20-odd successes. Take away the six successes you need to effect strangers remotely (M20 p504), and any successes you want to use for the duration (up to six more), and you're left with only being able to effect half a dozen to a dozen people or so.

                          Secondly this sort of effect is definitely vulgar with witnesses, because your intent is to force sleepers to believe in magic, against their Consensus. It's such a paradox that to me it would be justified to apply paradox for every sleeper who was affected.

                          If this sort of magic was possible don't you think that The Traditions would use it to scupper all the progress the Technocracy has made in the 20th century? Or that The Technocracy wouldn't use it to brainwash North America into believing that super-science is real? The Consensus is very hard to move, and takes a lot more than a simple song and two dozen successes to move.

                          Now for affecting a smaller number of people at a time, in a live concert, or to affect someone one time who hears an enchanted recording, or just the first few people who hear it, then it's perfectly acceptable, but no spell is capable of affecting everyone at all times.
                          Actually, there is a way to do it: the aforementioned “turn the song itself into a Wonder” (which means that, quite literally, anyone who hears the song is affected by it, whenever and wherever they happen to hear it). You don't need to worry about area of effect or number of targets (which otherwise would be a matter of how many successes you achieve) or the proximity to the target (which otherwise would require Correspondence 2); the time and effort that goes into crafting a Virtual Wonder effectively pays for that up front.

                          And yes, that can be abusive as Hell. The official mechanics for Virtual Wonders tries to rein this in by giving it a couple of Wonder Flaws, which I think is an insufficient deterrent; however, the explanation for why it gets Flaws is more promising: sure to the nature of Virtual Foundations, they're inherently unstable. Setting aside the flawed implementation of that idea, I could see following that logic too the conclusion that Virtual Wonders require an inordinate amount of maintenance: the songwriter is going to have to spend a lot of time reworking the song in her down-time, or else it will gradually weaken and eventually stop affecting the audience altogether. The exact mechanism for how that works would need to be specified; but I'd start by taking the number of targets that the song affects and how many successes it would normally take to affect them as a guideline to how much maintenance is needed after the song is performed.

                          Originally posted by Argonot View Post
                          Just to clarify:
                          My player wants people who listens to the song to stop counting as witnesses for the duration of the effect. I guess it wouln't be possible to bring magic into the coincidental realm that easy (vulgar without witnesses tops).
                          I'd recommend that you'd need Prime 5 for this, as it's similar to spending Quintessence to cancel Paradox. I'd also suggest that it costs Quintessence to use, based on the size of your audience. That can, in theory, get prohibitively expensive very quickly. As with the successes required, Is be inclined to move this Quintessence cost from the performance itself to the subsequent maintenance.

                          As long as the player is playing nice with it, that's about as far as I'd go. If it looks like the player intends to abuse it, I'd set a call on the maximum number of people it can affect: try to use it on a larger audience, and it breaks: you have to remake it from scratch. But as long as your singer makes a good-faith effort to keep it under wraps, that shouldn't be a problem.

                          Finally, I'd want it to be a little more specific than “magick is possible”: I'd want it to be such that the audience didn't count as Witnesses for the singer's Focus.

                          I don't have a problem with this idea because it's not too far removed from Blatancy, which also lets you treat the audience as “not Witnesses” — or at least, that's how I have it work in my games. But where Blatancy convinced the would-be Witnesses that what they're seeing isn't what it actually is, this doesn't change what they think it is; merely whether or not they think that it's possible.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Argonot View Post
                            Just to clarify:

                            My player wants people who listens to the song to stop counting as witnesses for the duration of the effect. I guess it wouln't be possible to bring magic into the coincidental realm that easy (vulgar without witnesses tops).
                            What this reminded me of was the way that the Fae can Enchant a mortal with Glamour to make the temporarily into Changelings (see Changeling 20th ed, p460). Infusing a sleeper with quintessence might be enough to have them temporarily count as supernatural for the purposes of paradox. That's an ST ruling though as there's no straightforward rule that says you can do it.

                            However, once again you run into the problem of affecting mass numbers of targets and finding the quintessence to affect them all.

                            With the way I run Mage, I'd say that your player is asking for something beyond their capability or for the rules to be bent to favour their idea, and I'd tell them that what they need to do is come up with a better idea that leverages the Consensus not opposes it.
                            Last edited by Dogstar; 06-04-2022, 03:22 AM.

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                            • #29
                              It seems to me that both Dogstar and Dataweaver have misinterpreted Argonot. "A feeling that magic is possible," isn't awakening and it's not vulgar either. Totally non magical (in the sense of not involving magical energies) things can create that feeling. A song that invokes a strong emotional response isn't vulgar magic, it's good art.

                              Argonot 's singer wants to help people be open to wonder, not shoehorned into a new paradigm. I suggest not using cannons to swat flies.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

                                Actually, there is a way to do it: the aforementioned “turn the song itself into a Wonder”

                                I’m not sure this would work, sleepers can’t activate wonders. If a sleeper played a song that was a wonder, I think all that would happen is they would hear the song but no actual Effect would happen.


                                Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                                It seems to me that both Dogstar and Dataweaver have misinterpreted Argonot. "A feeling that magic is possible," isn't awakening and it's not vulgar either. Totally non magical (in the sense of not involving magical energies) things can create that feeling. A song that invokes a strong emotional response isn't vulgar magic, it's good art.

                                Argonot 's singer wants to help people be open to wonder, not shoehorned into a new paradigm. I suggest not using cannons to swat flies.
                                In post #25 Argonot specified that their player wants to have the listeners not count as witnesses, so it’s more than just giving them a feeling.

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