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Tradition Forerunners' Influence over Legal Systems, (the world over)

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  • Tradition Forerunners' Influence over Legal Systems, (the world over)

    How might the Crafts who preceded the Traditions have influenced the legal systems of various nations or city-states throughout history?

    How might the modern Traditions continue to influence said legal systems?


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  • #2
    Well I think there’s two lenses you can look at it really.

    One is influence within mainstream history. The real world legal systems of today are already the outgrowths of antecedent systems, antecedent systems which the Traditions were heavily integrated within. Religion has always influenced legal principles and so you get many traditions involved there (Akashyana - Buddhist, Choir - Monotheist/Abrahamic, Kha’vadi/Verbeba, Chakravanti - Hindu, etc.). In what we’d call ‘the west’ you’ll also naturally have Hermetic influence given how the Hermetics were deeply influential in the various secret societies whose members would, in the light of day; be judges, politicians, and other respectable members of society. For these reasons there are naturally going to be epistemological marks, like a clock’s markings, which a perceptive Mage can recognize and exploit for their own Magickal ends.

    The other lense is what I call Alan Moore/Thomas Pynchon style ‘deep histories’. These posit an even more deeply embedded occult history within mainstream history that never went away. Under this paradigm the Traditions are not limited too faint marks left by past works but can access the occulted mechanisms of the works still in process. Through symbology, sacred geometry, code phrases, secret societies, and other underlying magickal matrices the Traditions can harness power underlying so many institutions just as their adversaries in the Technocratic Union seek to uproot those mystical workings that remain below their feet.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
      Well I think there’s two lenses you can look at it really.

      One is influence within mainstream history. The real world legal systems of today are already the outgrowths of antecedent systems, antecedent systems which the Traditions were heavily integrated within. Religion has always influenced legal principles and so you get many traditions involved there (Akashyana - Buddhist, Choir - Monotheist/Abrahamic, Kha’vadi/Verbeba, Chakravanti - Hindu, etc.). In what we’d call ‘the west’ you’ll also naturally have Hermetic influence given how the Hermetics were deeply influential in the various secret societies whose members would, in the light of day; be judges, politicians, and other respectable members of society. For these reasons there are naturally going to be epistemological marks, like a clock’s markings, which a perceptive Mage can recognize and exploit for their own Magickal ends.
      I know the concept of a Covenant comes from Christianity (with God in that case) and was made an essential feature of Western Legal Systems. A criminal is someone who has broken a covenant with the rest of society which everyone is assumed to be part of, by default. An informant is someone who has broken the code of silence shared between criminals. If trying to Awaken someone involves isolating them from the pressure of consensus-believing sleepers, informants make easy targets. Adversarial justice systems certainly fit with the dueling, competitive mindset of the order of Hermes.

      Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
      The other lense is what I call Alan Moore/Thomas Pynchon style ‘deep histories’. These posit an even more deeply embedded occult history within mainstream history that never went away. Under this paradigm the Traditions are not limited too faint marks left by past works but can access the occulted mechanisms of the works still in process. Through symbology, sacred geometry, code phrases, secret societies, and other underlying magickal matrices the Traditions can harness power underlying so many institutions just as their adversaries in the Technocratic Union seek to uproot those mystical workings that remain below their feet.
      It makes for good storytelling opportunities in an Acolyte Chronicle. Characters with only sensory sphere powers could be sent by higherups to activate hidden magical infrastructure to alter the outcome of a trial.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
        I know the concept of a Covenant comes from Christianity (with God in that case) and was made an essential feature of Western Legal Systems.
        I'm not sure of that. What you mean by Covenant in this case?

        The word itself is English, as despite having a Latin root it has a quite distinct meaning that only became associated with it in Middle English. What is called "covenant" in the English versions of the bible is simply called an "alliance" elsewhere, and this is definitely not a concept that came from Christianity.

        Actually I never heard of any major legal concept being originated in Christianity. I've heard of concepts originated from the Hitites, Greeks, Muslims and, of course, Romans, that for "western" Legal Systems. From Christianity, nothing I remember right now.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          I'm not sure of that. What you mean by Covenant in this case?

          The word itself is English, as despite having a Latin root it has a quite distinct meaning that only became associated with it in Middle English. What is called "covenant" in the English versions of the bible is simply called an "alliance" elsewhere, and this is definitely not a concept that came from Christianity.

          Actually I never heard of any major legal concept being originated in Christianity. I've heard of concepts originated from the Hitites, Greeks, Muslims and, of course, Romans, that for "western" Legal Systems. From Christianity, nothing I remember right now.
          When I was participating in a community group that had a majority of Christians this is what they explained. They referred to man being in a Covenant with God and said that our legal systems inherit the concept from religion, where the Covenant is between every person living in the country and the society existing in the country. Basically, you benefit from roads, schools and police protection before you are old enough to "consent" to the legal system and are deemed to be part of a social covenant to uphold the law.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
            When I was participating in a community group that had a majority of Christians this is what they explained. They referred to man being in a Covenant with God and said that our legal systems inherit the concept from religion, where the Covenant is between every person living in the country and the society existing in the country. Basically, you benefit from roads, schools and police protection before you are old enough to "consent" to the legal system and are deemed to be part of a social covenant to uphold the law.
            In the sense of historicity, they were talking total bullshit. None of this came from religion in this sense, and definitely not from Christianity, or even from early Judaism.

            There was in the past a link between legal thought and religion, as there was a link between everything and religion, but that predates by thousands of years the Abrahamic religions. Every society we know of has some legal theory and body of law, tied to religion or not, and Abrahamic law by all accounts derives from the Hammurabi Code from Babylon, which was an extremely influential legal doctrine.

            But this assertion of theirs is less about legal history and more about legal theory, which is a different thing. They're making a mythical assertion about the origins of law following the theory of Social Contract, which is understandable but misleading (as it led you to wrong conclusions). This is not about the events, but a notion of why people create systems of state and law.

            You can research this theory on your own, but it isn't historically linked to Christianity, either. Ideas around a given body of law coming from a social contract of sorts also predate Abrahamic Law, although many legal systems of the time, including Abrahamic Law itself, are based on theories of divine instruction, including proto-Divine Mandate theory, or theories of divine conduct (where law comes from the examples of the gods instead of their instructions).

            Social Contract Theory only really took off from the late 17th century to early 18th, taking form finally (but not final form, as it remains discussed and has several distinct formulation) in Hobbes' Leviathan from 1651. It has nothing to do with any notion of divine inspiration, though, as it actually came out with Enlightenment thought as a secular answer to the then official doctrine in Catholic Law of Divine Mandate (that took form in the Early Medieval as an adaptation of the Imperial Divinity Theory from the Imperial period of Rome).

            For this subject I'd recommend reading the Leviathan, Rousseau's Du Contrat social and, for a counterpoint, Hume's Of Civil Liberty. You can also look up for modern theory on Law and State, which I do recommend too, but it is too varied to put an adequate bibliography here, and they'll frequently refer to those books as sources of concepts.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              In the sense of historicity, they were talking total bullshit. None of this came from religion in this sense, and definitely not from Christianity, or even from early Judaism.
              I should have known. They assumed that because I was well spoken and had good morals (their words), I must be Christian. When I told them I'm Agnostic, they acted like I was an infiltrator. The claims regarding covenants were asserted in the conversation that followed.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              For this subject I'd recommend reading the Leviathan, Rousseau's Du Contrat social and, for a counterpoint, Hume's Of Civil Liberty. You can also look up for modern theory on Law and State, which I do recommend too, but it is too varied to put an adequate bibliography here, and they'll frequently refer to those books as sources of concepts.
              I will certainly make a note of these. I'm trying to finish Diologue, by Robert McKee, which I might have to reread, in part. I'm also starting The Madness of Crowds, by Douglas Murray. I have an attention disorder that was undetected for most of my life. I really wish I could read more books, because there are so many that interest me.


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              • #8
                You can try Audiobooks or even comics. Those aren't hard to find in different media as they're really old classics.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  You can try Audiobooks or even comics. Those aren't hard to find in different media as they're really old classics.

                  I had previously picked Call of Cthulhu as my nighttime audiobook. The way the author describes diverse people takes some getting used to, as it distracts a bit from the story itself. So I'm happy to replace that one with Leviathan, a nearly twelve hour listen that I'll hit multiple times on late nights.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                    I had previously picked Call of Cthulhu as my nighttime audiobook. The way the author describes diverse people takes some getting used to, as it distracts a bit from the story itself. So I'm happy to replace that one with Leviathan, a nearly twelve hour listen that I'll hit multiple times on late nights.
                    The Call of Cthulhu is a wonderful reading once you get used to it, but you'd be hard pressed to be more racist than Lovecraft. I'd say that's a fine exchange.


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